I have seen all sorts of NPG Music Club Tracks / Download Only Albums floating around in either lossless formats like FLAC or in MP3 with a so-called high quality (320) bit rate. I have even seen people on eBay try to pass off download only albums as legitimately released CDs.

Weren’t the vast majority of these download-only songs originally released with low bit rates (128 / 190)? Save for tracks later appearing on legitimate CDs (i.e. "One Nite Alone..." or the "Supercute" CD single sold during the 2001 "Hit 'N Run" Tour ) is it true that the vast majority of these songs were never re-released at a higher bit rate or in another format (i.e. CD)?

And for those that have legit copies of these songs, can you confirm the original bit rates for the following?

The NPG Music Club Single Tracks (Editions 1-12)

The Download Only Albums

"Xpectation"
“The Chocolate Invasion"
“The Slaughterhouse"
“C-Note"

I went to the usual sources but didn't find anything conclusive, so I figured I would throw it up on the Org and see what happens. Thanks in advance for the clarification!

NPGMC tracks: The Ahdio Shows were all 128kbps. Albums and one-off tracks that were downloadable(not streaming) were anywhere from 128kbps to 256kbps. Most downloads were DRM protected wma files so they had to be ripped to CD and then to lossy/lossless to bypass the DRM. This is the main reason we get all kinds of bitrates showing up. There were a handful of Hit And Run CD singles which mirrored internet only downloads that could theoretically end up on the web as true lossless files.

The NPG Music Club Single Tracks (Editions 1-12) - Up to 256kbps mp3

The Download Only Albums
"Xpectation" - Up to 256kbps wma-DRM
“The Chocolate Invasion" - Up to 256kbps wma-DRM
“The Slaughterhouse" - Up to 256kbps wma-DRM
“C-Note" - Up to 256kbps wma-DRM

Chocolate Invasion / The Slaughter House,

My files are MP3's at 320, ok... but converted** from WMA-Drm protected files.... like Squirreslgrease say.

**: I know this does not improve the sound, but makes it worse,

like I said, it's just: ok....


I would love to have these in wav files. Prince are you looking?

But... I guess you don't care anymore..?
[Edited 2/13/10 16:00pm]

Even if there are WAV files of these, it doesn't matter. The original files were 128 or even 256 at one point I think. But once a file is compressed, you can't uncompress it or regain the lossy quality. What's done is done. It's why you can't reasonable reencode a file UP, like reripping a 128k mp3 into a 256mp3. It will still sound like a 128k because the lossy nature of it is forever encoded. It's not like zipping a file and unzipping it later. The FLAC files are just someone without this knowledge, sharing lossy sounding WAV files.

The NPGMC 2001 files from year one did not have a DRM on them, but I think files later on did. Even if they played and recorded the song on their computer, they were still playing a lossy format and recording it, so it wouldn't matter if it was a WAV or not. It still sounds like the original format.

In simplicity: It's like taking a new (uncompressed) piece of paper, and wadding it up, either a little or a lot (compressing), wadding it up, etc, then trying to flatten it back out and present it as a new piece. It's just not going to happen. Once it's folded, creased and crumpled, it always will be. And even a copy of that will show the original crumpled defects.


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[Edited 2/14/10 15:34pm]

squirrelgrease said:

Ahh.. that makes a lot of sense actually. And thanks for posting the bit rate spreads as well. I wonder if the folks @ PrinceVault would ever consider adding that information to each song’s intro matrix?

As to Prince... well, the obvious choice is to offer those items up for sale again, offering them in a Lossless format. But, he won't, and these songs will continue to circulate illegally w/ the original low bit rates. For a guy who "prides" himself on "ace" business transactions, you'd think he'd go for the low hanging fruit with things like lossless downloads and/or remastering the backcatalog...

Thanks, as always, SG!

ernestsewell said:

Exactly. And I would imagine that if someone doesn't know what they are doing with the encoder, they can introduce artifacts to the file and make it actually sound worse. At least WAVs are fool proof in that regard.

I personally rip all my CDs as WAVs via EAC and then convert them to Apple Lossless in iTunes. I also try to buy lossless downloads when I can. I have a pair of AKG Studio headphones, and I can absolutely hear compression on certain tracks... drives the audio nerd in me nuts!
[Edited 2/13/10 15:43pm]

ernestsewell said:

And every time a lossy is re-compressed as a lossy, even at a higher bit-rate, it will lose even more information, which leads to distortion and other artifacts. The best thing for folks that don't have these tracks would be to find files with lineage such as NPGMC mp3/wma > Flac/WAV(non-lossy shells) and burn a CD. For iPod listening, iTunes will automatically convert wma to mp3, so there's no way around losing bits in that regard. A better method for iPod playback would be NPGMC mp3/wma > Apple Lossless.

This site has bit-rate info for NPGMC tracks(though, somewhat limited): http://www.dawnation.com/

squirrelgrease said:

Good info there! Another link for the ol' "favorites" folder. Thx.

squirrelgrease said:

I have all different bitrates for the Ahdio shows, and I downloaded them all myself back in 2001/02.

Feb 2001: 160 kbps
Mar 2001: 160 kbps
Apr 2001: 128 kbps
May 2001: 192 kbps
Jun 2001: 192 kbps
Jul 2001: 192 kbps
Aug 2001: 192 kbps
Sep 2001: 192 kbps
Nov 2001: 128 kbps
Dec 2001: 160 kbps
Jan 2002: 160 kbps

squirrelgrease said:

Thanks for posting this. I wish more people understood the basics of digital audio. Another argument for offering a Lossless download store, but then people would somehow save over or delete the original FLACs or ALACs.

Se7en said:

Thanks for sharing this! Looks like there was some bit-rate inconsistency at certain times of the year.

BlackbeltJones said:

I think they were going for an even file size vs. even bitrate. Even then, they were unsuccessful.

The September show is especially touching, as it was meant as a tribute to 9/11. There was no October 2001 Ahdio show - he gave us a download preview of The Rainbow Children instead.

Se7en said:

Then the folder I found was definitely not my original downloads. Thanks for that list. Now I have to find my "real" files and mark them accordingly. I should have the cue splitter files that someone made way back then as well.

why did he release them as mp3's though ?

that's just butchering one's own art

Dewrede said:

It's what Larry Graham would have wanted.

In the early months of NPGMC 2001, they were lower bitrates and the files just weren't compiled well. By 3 or 4 months in, they were releasing HI and LO versions of the audio files (and maybe the videos, but I forget). The bitrates ranged from 128 - 256 I believe. I have all the original files.

Edit: also, things like APE, SHN, or FLAC files were around, but weren't as viable as an option for artists to offer up music in downloads as it is now. Wendy & Lisa, Nine Inch Nails, and others now use MP3, AAC, WAV, and FLAC. It just wasn't on people's radar back then, or perhaps there were too many lossless options to chose from, so, as Prince said, "you can chose simply to not chose". HA!

I was a big fan of the APE and SHN format early on. Monkey's Audio had a very quick program and I never had an issue with it. SHN was pretty good too. FLAC's front end program still has issues installing at times.

Either way, the compression into MP3 was an issue for some folks, but it was what it was at the time.


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[Edited 2/14/10 15:32pm]

Dewrede said:

Cost of bandwidth back then vs pressing CDs. I'm not even sure that there were widely used lossless compression codecs back then. Most folks still had dial-up and tiny hard drives.

Remember that horrible eeeeeooooohhhhhaaaaahhhhh screetch of modem conections?

I agree that lossy compression is not a good way to showcase an artist's music, and at some point these all should be re-released as lossless. But that ain't gonna happen.

I do remember the Hi and Lo option, now that you mention it . . . and the 56k modem!

Hard to believe that was almost exactly 9 years ago.

I have the ahdio shows as single files at diffrent bitrates (128,160 192, 256)
and the shows broken down into single tracks at 256. I'm assuming whovever broke the files down didn't realize he was wasting his time.

ernestsewell said:

ok , i didn't know

APE is cool indeed

squirrelgrease said:

yeah i remember

it took an hour or so to download a low bitrate mp3

squirrelgrease said:

SHN was around, MKW was even older, Flac was starting out but only became popular later.

squirrelgrease said:

There already were 20+ GB drives, and there were CDRs,...

I've still got all of those files, in multiple versions too (because they always fucked up and put wrong encodes online etc). First months of NPGMC they used protected QuickTime files which some people managed to convert to regular audio files, but later on they kicked out the incompetent bunch who ran v1 and settled on MP3s.

MP3s were made with horrible codecs, even though LAME was available.

Later releases like Chocolate Invasion etc were DRM-protected WMAs, and those too were released in multiple versions, I recall HQ detailing the differences between earlier and later encodes in a FAQ. Wasn't just audio quality, sometimes the music was slightly different.

IIRC they didn't fulfill the minimum promises half the time in NPGMC year one, and at one time even included the RELEASED track Horny pony, ripped from cassette (!) even though this track was available on CD. And there were some horrible video files, ripped from shaky VHS tapes, while there were fans posting DIVX encodes of tracks from Lovesexy Live that looked 10 times more professional.

BartVanHemelen said:

Don't forget the clumsily-added computerized "disclaimer" intro to the Horny Pony NPGMC download!