thebanishedone said:

But done in a very uniquely Prince way - mixing it with that punky early 80s style he had - nothing wrong with that! (apart from this still managed to sound too clean. Its sounds like its trying to be raw, but I'm suspecting the more involved use of pro-tools on this album (I'm assuming that the fuss made about Pro-tools being used "for the first time by Prince" means that he actually used it in full workstation mode - i.e. recording, editing, arranging, mastering, the works!) has resulted in a less-warm and more sterile sound, as that's what I get from the album).

May I also add that I don't believe Prince would ever use a VST! He can, and probably has every bit of hardware he wants - you would always use hardware over a VST, despite how good some VSTs actually are.
[Edited 2/22/10 9:20am]

re: if

i dont think the 'if' factor regarding old instruments would make a difference .. i read that novaselic used to get any old random guitar he came across for cobain cuz he knew everytime cobain picked up a different guitar he'd get inspired by a different sound or feel and write a couple new tunes. kinda like when u get a flange pedal or try a new effect .. sometimes that alone can inspire a new song ... in prince case he was experimenting coming up with new sounds unheard and collaborating with very creative people all that swirling around him inspired that great music ... even the women he spent time with were a big part of what came out of that great period of music .. much like the beatles as well .. they got inspired by pushing the very limited technology to new extremes .. even now with a million tracks available people dont come up with such inspired sounds as what came out of a 4 track analog with the beatles ..

so now prince has hired musicians who rely on him for direction. this can stale creativity pretty fast .. not having the challenge of creating something new and just relying on what is already available. being with musicians who dont have anything to offer prince that he doesnt already know. recording with equipment that creates the illusion of being able to do anything but with all those different preprogrammed options available that leaves less time to experiment creating your own unique sounds ...

so NO i dont think revisiting sounds he has already more than played out will help him at all .. and with his musical knowledge it gets harder and harder to find new inspirations amongst all the corporate drivel and copycat amature music ... the choice by prince to simply become another copycat around d n p era has always been his shark jumping moment tho there was some great stuff that still came out after that .. he has hit another land mark LOW with his use of AUTO TUNE and it is a clear indication that prince has completely lost track of his creative self. he has gotten lazy about finding new inspiration and leans on the pop industry for the latest trend to follow .. for whatever reasons he does not search for more underground influences .. every album is just another radio friendly template filled in with a more and more rare moment or 2 of the old prince ... not the linn prince .. but the prince who is actually creative ... too much time with studio musicians has made prince just another studio musician and not the artist he once was ..

i think he has lost himself and to truly get the prince people crave its not the equipment but the environment he exposes himself to during his creative process ... it needs to be different than his past not the same and he is quite comfortable right where he is so digging out the vintage linn in my opinion will have absolutely no effect

Plus it didn't have the real drums pounding behind the drum machine to give the songs strength. Just listen to the power in a song like "1999". "MPLShit" doesn't even come close.

vainandy said:

A lot of that has 2 do with how the LM-1 was recorded and EQed back then vs. now.

Back then, it was recorded to 2" tape... way up in the mix.

With 'MPLsound', I think he used the LM-1, but it's MUCH dryer (less EQ & effects), and transferred 2 ProTools.

In particular, the famous sidestick sound is mixed far lower than in previous years, where that (and the handclap) really stood out in the mix and slammed.

I think most of the way this album was received here, was greatly affected by the earlier report that John Blackwell likened it 2 "Controversy".

It's really more of a "Prince then meets Prince now" sound.

That being said, songs like "Dance 4 Me", "Ol Skool Company", and "No More Candy 4 U" really work in this way, along with "Chocolate Box".

OldFriends4Sale said:

when i wrote 'horns' i meant synthesizer brass.

i dont like his transition to a more organic sound either.

in a word-no

you can't expect someone-anyone to go backwards in their life. I bet if you ask Prince-he'd say-NOW-today-he's a way better writer-player-producer, whatever-than he was back whenever

so to say-forget all the personal progress-ignore any experience you may have had thats changed you and just be say-a teenager again aint gonna work for anybody-let alone someone as driven as Prince

he's about going forwards-much as some don't want him to

minneapolisFunq said:

I always loved that thick, nasty OB sound, and I loved how he/Fink would program the oscillators to make it sound just a hair unstable. Amazing synth... tons of US rock acts used it in the 80s (hell, it is the same synth in Van Halen's "Jump"), but Prince and Co. really made it their own. I miss hearing it in general (not only in Prince's tracks).

For all you keyboard nerds out there, know that some fine folks in the EU have made a killer "virtual" OB-8: http://www.sonicprojects....ption.html

For a VST, it is fairly convincing.

polkadotbliss said:

I think 2 many people look at 'going back' as a bad thing, it only depends on why...

Going back home 4 me is always good, and I'm gonna keep going cause 1 day Mom & Dad won't be there. It will be the nastiest feeling to walk into my 'home' and sit where my mom used to be and look into the bedroom my parents used to sleep in and where I crawled into when I was sick and know they will never be there again.
I revist my past all the time, especially when I'm with my nephews(4 & 6). Can't help it, and it causes me to regain some very basic and innocent principles of life, to help me in the now.
I go back to get rid of some bad things in my now, cause that's where it originated.
Every time I get back with my cousins I grew up with, it's the best times of my life. I feel healed. I laugh the hardest and rest real good afterward.

Ahhhhh going back ain't a bad thing
History is just a minute behind us.
I'm 37 yrs old and it still feels like I just graduated from High School not long ago.

If Prince doesn't go back then why did he pull out All Day All Night, why did he pull out In A Large Room w/No Light

If he doesn't go back why has he done recent shows and have Morris Day/Jerome and/or Sheila E open up? and say things like "this is the way the PR tour was supposed to be"

the linn and synth Prince made his own, he actually in my opinion ran away from his sound. People say Prince is a genius, but he didn't see that his genius drew around him some of the best people who believed in him during those times and in those years Prince was creating a legacy. Instead Prince turned from his own glory and thought by pulling in musicians from bands he idolized would do it for him. Maceo Larry and others, what they had was 4 the sun they revolved around weither it be Sly or James. Prince was/is a sun and had his own planets and moons that reflected his light...
[Edited 2/22/10 11:54am]

ernestsewell said:

I think some of what you hear as slick is the modern mastering techniques for loud transparent mixes, I bet you if you heard the album directly from Prince before it was mastered, it would sound a bit more raw and rough.

Giovanni777 said:

Yes, it is true. Prince did use Pro Tools to record TRC. A buddy and myself setup the first Pro Tools computer for him back in 2000. Joe Lipinski is responsible for engineering that record and teaching the ropes to Prince on using it.

blueautumn said:

Then Prince (not so surprisingly) is once again a liar.

ernestsewell said:

When did he say that about Rainbow Children? I went to the Xenophobia celebration and that was suring the Rainbow Children release, and we all sat around the mixing board while Femi and Joe sat there playing a few things on the board off of protools and telling stories.

ufoclub said:

I'm not talking about TRC.

Forget it. This thread is about the Linn drum machine.

Giovanni777 said:

And All 4 R Just Funkie!!!

OldFriends4Sale said:

Mmmm... make sense. When it's yours, it's yours.

ernestsewell said:

I know what your refering to but I think you might have misinterpreted Prince. He didn't say he never used it he just said he was very anti protools.

He probably was uncomfortable doing the engineering on it but let his engineers do it but if he was on his own would revert back to things he liked to use. But I think what he was saying is that he's now comfortable with it

a song is a living thing. you need to have 'live circuits' running through the whole thing for it to have 'energy'. midi triggering is better than copying and pasting prerecorded loops for that reason. linn drum or any other drum machine must be midi triggered to keep the 'live circuit' running through the track. same for all other vocals and instruments. once you let the software do the 'playing' the 'live circuit' is cut off and the song becomes 'dead' no matter how good the song, the musicians or the singer.

turn on your local commercial radio station and listen to the 'hits' of today to see what i mean. it's all 'dead' music.

oh and, say no to drugs. you can't make 'raw energy' music is ur brain is 'dead'.

thebanishedone said:

can you tell me what the vst linn is called? I cant afford to buy hardware like most people!

BlackbeltJones said:

^ that is a virtual op-x. not an ob-8

i have it and it is very dissapointing.

its hard to get any nice brass sounds out of it.

vinx98 said:

just search for samples.

they are easy to find.

citrus said:

Hehehe - complete rubbish but thanks all the same

vainandy said:

I've seen you make this comment many times, as though it was de riguer for Prince to layer real drums on synth drums - but he's only ever done that a few times and usually just has maybe a live snare (think Tambourine) with the Linn playing the other parts.

You mention 1999, yet that is almost all Linn, except for some live cymbal work (like the run on the ride cymbal at the beginning of the track). Its not live drums giving 1999 the power that it has.

Mindflux said:

you don't know what a 'live circuit' is?

It has never been about the technology or the instruments, it was about his soul and passion. I think Peggy Mac was once quoted as saying something to the effect that he could create something incredible with whatever was available to him at the moment.
What was coming out of him in the 80's was not the most technically sophisticated or challenging music ever recorded, but what he did was so full of passion and original in his way of absorbing and reinterpreting pop rock and soul, that it blew peoples socks off.

In 2000, I actually picked up and thumbed through a well-worn copy of a Pro-Tools manual that was sitting on top of the console in Studio A of Paisley Park. It was the only book in the room. It was like it was put there to say "Look, I'm using the latest and greatest technology to create my songs."

3121 said:

How do you know this? And "stock" from where? What library?

I actually met Bruce Forat last week whose company services Linn drums (Prince's own) and he told me Prince gave Sheila a LM-1 so I'm guessing she programmed it herself.

GaryMF said:

Hi GaryMF, I know this because i saw it and listened to it here. Enjoy.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/gmasonprod23

citrus said:

I know what you're getting at, but its not like "live circuit" is a bona fide studio term or production technique!

I don't know why you've whittled it down to just the "live circuit" moniker you've created - I disagree with everything you've written there. There is no audible difference between using a sample of a sound and midi-triggering the unit. In fact, you potentially encounter more problems with midi-triggers than with an accurate, well-recorded sample that doesn't degrade no matter how many times you copy it.

You're also wrong about drugs in music - are you really saying that Jimi Hendrix (or insert virtually any other artists name!) had no "raw energy"? Laughable!

Mindflux said:

you may not be able to hear or feel an audible difference between samples and midi-triggering, but there is a difference.

when ur in a studio making music, ur not just working with sound, ur working with electricity.

electricity and how you use it is a major factor in the difference between music that is ALIVE and music that isn't.

re the drugs - i realise i made a sweeping statement, and sure, plenty of LIVING MUSIC has been created and recorded by 'the greats' while they were high as kites, but:

1. would they still be making great LIVING MUSIC after 20-30 years of smoking dope? or would their music start to sound woolly and lack-luster? (the state of mind of an artist is a major contributing factor in regards to the ALIVENESS of their music)

2. what did those 'greats' record with? protools? or did they plug in their shit and light up the desk? even when midi came along, the 'live circuit' was still in the picture.

Computer generated 'playing': when you take a loop and copy and paste it, the energy runs for as long as the loop, then stops and starts again for the next repeat of that loop. The whole thing becomes internalized in the computer.

Midi-triggered 'playing' allows a LIVE SIGNAL to keep pumping through so even though the sounds are samples, the energy playing them is free-flowing.

citrus said:

Its a very utopian ideal that you're talking about, but it just isn't true!

Are you a music producer yourself? (and, if so, can I have a link to your work?)

First of all - if you cannot hear or feel a difference between a sample and a midi-trigger, then in spite of their being a difference in the way the sound was produced, there is no difference in the end product and, therefore, it DOES NOT MATTER! With music you hear and feel it - you've just said that you can't hear or feel a difference, hence you have a moot point!

How alive the music sounds has nothing to do with management of electricity. Its how you manipulate soundwaves mate (and not all soundwaves are produced electronically - yes, you convert them in to an electrical signal, but you even do that with a sample). Making the mix sound "alive" is all about production, eq-ing etc etc

In answer to your other points - yes, there are still many great artists around today still making great music and who were/are renowned drug-takers.....David Bowie, Paul Macartney, The Rolling Stones etc etc

What does it matter what they recorded with? Only some analogue recordings sound great from back in the day. Most recording techniques have improved and lead us to the great fidelity achievable today. Your apparent bias for "real" ways of recording is nostalgic more than anything.

As a music producer myself who uses a blend of both programmed music and live-playing, I can assure you that I'm able to maintain an energy and "liveness" where you wouldn't be able to tell for the most part what was played live and what wasn't!