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PrintablemuleFunk said: Cravens said: While I can't definitely say that this post is wrong, I must admit, that I too find it a bit hard to swallow as it is now.
The problem to me, and the single most important thing to do for you as the writer, is to back up some of these claims with something substantial. Right now, you're backing your theory up with myths. If you knew David Bowie better, for intance, you'd know that he indeed gets roughed up by his fans. You'll find constant remarks about "why everything he made after 1980 was up to no good?" and so forth. The difference between Bowie and Prince, is of course, that Bowie has now been dissapointing his fans for nearly 30 years, and I speculate that his fans are now turning immune and aren't bothered to get cynical about it anymore. Prince has argueably only been dissapointing his fans in some 15+ years, so as of yet, he hasn't reached that point, where his fans have given up on him and embraced the new Prince as an aging musician (I think a fan needs to have hope for his idol's abilities in order to be bothered to complain about his current lack of sparkle, a fan who doesn't have hope for the future of his idol, probably just forgets him and move on). I am not familiar with Springsteen (who's mostly an American idol), Gabriel and the others to an extent where I'm comfortable claiming this or that about their fan base (and who outside any fan based community really is? Are you so involved with these musicians online communities to claim all is honky dory over there?), but Prince actually seems to outsell Springsteen and Young and Dylan if you look at it on an international level. How ever, I can't rule out that race indeed has something to do with it. I'm not from America and I think America in many ways is still utterly **cked up about this issue to an extent where someone from Europe like me simply cannot begin to understand HOW this could be an issue at all, but with that said, a simple case study in Nina Simone probably will underline the fact, that black musicians in the USA are treated differently. There's just two things I think you're missing in this theory, besides facts: 1) I wonder if the "Bill Cosby Syndrome" applies to Prince. By this I mean, that in the 1980s Bill Cosby complained about some reactions from various black communities who wanted the Bill Cosby Show to not just show ONE type of black family, but rather as one of the very, very few black mainstream acts embody the entire black community. What Cosby complained about was, that he felt he had to carry every black man and woman on his shoulders, as if he as a successful black man now had been appointed, unwillingly, to speak for everyone with colour. Could the same apply to Prince? Is he not allowed to fail, because he is black, and because in doing so will "fail" an the behalf of his race? Is this bull shit, or is it a possible factor? As I said, I'm European, and I have a really hard time understanding what "race" means to Americans. 2) Prince's career has been weird in the sense, that he is now self employed and in absolute control over his own output. I think it shouldn't be missed, that ever since the 1990s Prince hasn't had a BIG company to keep his stardom shining. Regardless of one's talents, I think you need money to be canonized in rock history. The Beatles, Bowie, Springsteen, all of them, have been elevated to legends mostly after their careers peaked, all due to clever schemes by record companies. No one but Prince is pushing his legacy right now, and I'm afraid it's the lack of money and record company schemes and not the presence of race, that'll eventually make his musical output forgotten by the masses. Anyway, in hope to keep it civil. I agree with the Super Negro theory 100% but this is a factor and is always overlooked in this discussion. In 1995 Prince was placed in the R&B division of Warner Brothers. This was done after Prince had signed a record deal that shook the foundations of the industry. What we found out later was this deal was predicated on him selling 1 million albums. What is often overlooked by fams and critics was how W&B then promoted the following CD and single releases. Prince's single releases then suddenly shifted to R&B themed songs.... Sexy MF and My Name Is Prince were released as the opening singles off the "Symbol" album. I could see Sexy MF as it was released to be a club jam and was a huge hit there but My Name Is Prince flopped.Some will jump up and say that the artist is the main promoter of his or her songs but that's not 100% true. The record company has the final say in the matter. The real drama came when the Come/Gold era materal was ready for release.WB told Prince to release a Greatest Hits album. Prince had just had a comeback with Diamonds and Pearls and had a minor hit Symbol. He had hit materal ready with the Gold/Come materal why a greatest hits record? Then Prince is told in 1994 by a WB suit that he did not have another hit in him. Prince then goes out and hits indy style with TMBGITW. I could go on here but the bottom line was WB was sabotaging Prince to keep him from making that contract work for him. Then someone then set out to destroy him by sabotaging other deals he had with other labels. The biggest example was the Arista deal which had him at Clive Davis throat until he found out Clive was kicked off his own damn label. Clive was replaced by longtime Prince rival L.A. Reid and the Rave project was through. This trend continued until the Musicology deal which the big label promoted the shit out of the record and multiple hits followed. Prince did not help himself during this time but it's obvious that someone was trying to put this "nigger" in his place. Bottom line ..."if the RECORD COMPANY does not want you to have a hit you won't have one. And I don't care who you are." Barry White [Edited 2/24/10 4:31am] great post, MuleFunk i didn't know about the l.a. reid situation.another peice of the puzzle.very interesting. | |
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L.A. Reid and Prince were feuding over one of the T.L.C. girls. |
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muleFunk said: L.A. Reid and Prince were feuding over one of the T.L.C. girls.
Thanks for your posts. | |
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MEXICAN ITALIAN?????
Mods...somebody revoke this cats org card [Edited 2/25/10 7:02am] "If you wanted to buy a Sam Cooke album, where would you go?" | |
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muleFunk said: Cravens said: While I can't definitely say that this post is wrong, I must admit, that I too find it a bit hard to swallow as it is now.
The problem to me, and the single most important thing to do for you as the writer, is to back up some of these claims with something substantial. Right now, you're backing your theory up with myths. If you knew David Bowie better, for intance, you'd know that he indeed gets roughed up by his fans. You'll find constant remarks about "why everything he made after 1980 was up to no good?" and so forth. The difference between Bowie and Prince, is of course, that Bowie has now been dissapointing his fans for nearly 30 years, and I speculate that his fans are now turning immune and aren't bothered to get cynical about it anymore. Prince has argueably only been dissapointing his fans in some 15+ years, so as of yet, he hasn't reached that point, where his fans have given up on him and embraced the new Prince as an aging musician (I think a fan needs to have hope for his idol's abilities in order to be bothered to complain about his current lack of sparkle, a fan who doesn't have hope for the future of his idol, probably just forgets him and move on). I am not familiar with Springsteen (who's mostly an American idol), Gabriel and the others to an extent where I'm comfortable claiming this or that about their fan base (and who outside any fan based community really is? Are you so involved with these musicians online communities to claim all is honky dory over there?), but Prince actually seems to outsell Springsteen and Young and Dylan if you look at it on an international level. How ever, I can't rule out that race indeed has something to do with it. I'm not from America and I think America in many ways is still utterly **cked up about this issue to an extent where someone from Europe like me simply cannot begin to understand HOW this could be an issue at all, but with that said, a simple case study in Nina Simone probably will underline the fact, that black musicians in the USA are treated differently. There's just two things I think you're missing in this theory, besides facts: 1) I wonder if the "Bill Cosby Syndrome" applies to Prince. By this I mean, that in the 1980s Bill Cosby complained about some reactions from various black communities who wanted the Bill Cosby Show to not just show ONE type of black family, but rather as one of the very, very few black mainstream acts embody the entire black community. What Cosby complained about was, that he felt he had to carry every black man and woman on his shoulders, as if he as a successful black man now had been appointed, unwillingly, to speak for everyone with colour. Could the same apply to Prince? Is he not allowed to fail, because he is black, and because in doing so will "fail" an the behalf of his race? Is this bull shit, or is it a possible factor? As I said, I'm European, and I have a really hard time understanding what "race" means to Americans. 2) Prince's career has been weird in the sense, that he is now self employed and in absolute control over his own output. I think it shouldn't be missed, that ever since the 1990s Prince hasn't had a BIG company to keep his stardom shining. Regardless of one's talents, I think you need money to be canonized in rock history. The Beatles, Bowie, Springsteen, all of them, have been elevated to legends mostly after their careers peaked, all due to clever schemes by record companies. No one but Prince is pushing his legacy right now, and I'm afraid it's the lack of money and record company schemes and not the presence of race, that'll eventually make his musical output forgotten by the masses. Anyway, in hope to keep it civil. I agree with the Super Negro theory 100% but this is a factor and is always overlooked in this discussion. In 1995 Prince was placed in the R&B division of Warner Brothers. This was done after Prince had signed a record deal that shook the foundations of the industry. What we found out later was this deal was predicated on him selling 1 million albums. What is often overlooked by fams and critics was how W&B then promoted the following CD and single releases. Prince's single releases then suddenly shifted to R&B themed songs.... Sexy MF and My Name Is Prince were released as the opening singles off the "Symbol" album. I could see Sexy MF as it was released to be a club jam and was a huge hit there but My Name Is Prince flopped.Some will jump up and say that the artist is the main promoter of his or her songs but that's not 100% true. The record company has the final say in the matter. The real drama came when the Come/Gold era materal was ready for release.WB told Prince to release a Greatest Hits album. Prince had just had a comeback with Diamonds and Pearls and had a minor hit Symbol. He had hit materal ready with the Gold/Come materal why a greatest hits record? Then Prince is told in 1994 by a WB suit that he did not have another hit in him. Prince then goes out and hits indy style with TMBGITW. I could go on here but the bottom line was WB was sabotaging Prince to keep him from making that contract work for him. Then someone then set out to destroy him by sabotaging other deals he had with other labels. The biggest example was the Arista deal which had him at Clive Davis throat until he found out Clive was kicked off his own damn label. Clive was replaced by longtime Prince rival L.A. Reid and the Rave project was through. This trend continued until the Musicology deal which the big label promoted the shit out of the record and multiple hits followed. Prince did not help himself during this time but it's obvious that someone was trying to put this "nigger" in his place. Bottom line ..."if the RECORD COMPANY does not want you to have a hit you won't have one. And I don't care who you are." Barry White [Edited 2/24/10 4:31am] ----- Great points. Finally someone who understands what is really going on. | |
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I see where you coming from, Murph. But I think the "Super Negro Syndrome" is an unfair generalization.
Take me, I wish I didn't have HIGH STANDARDS but I do, and its not exclusive on Prince alone, it includes ALL of my fave "living" artists who are not even in the same caliber as he is. I don't expect them to reach his level, but their OWN level. And no, I'm not expecting to hear a semi-Dream Factory project anytime soon from dude, that would be reaching from my part, but all I'm expecting is at least some respect for my intelligence and make me feel like you put your foot down, instead of thinking I'll be CONTENT enough with whatever subpar bullshit you throw to me just because you're "so & so"  People work hard for their money to spend it on you, at least give them what they want so you can give them what YOU need.
Mind you, I'll support him live whenever he's near my area, if there's ever a "free the music" hypocritical sermon intermission between his songs, thats my que for a cigarette break, if not, nothing will stop me from having a ball. | |
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I agree with the stuff about record companies, which are in the whole racist. Many of them dealing with pop, soul and r and b artists who are black, expect to make catchy hits, with strong beats and lyrics usually of questionable content. I mean look at it, after the arrival of jazz, bebop and music that was art and breathtakingly talented black musicians (Listen to Sir Duke for a roll call), I would also add Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, Cab Calloway and Dizzy Gillespie on to that list, we had the emergence of doo wop, early rock and roll in the 50s, led by black artists. Motown in the 60s increased the popularity of black popular music further and it almost became mainstreamed. The later 60s and up to 72/73 was the high point, lots of message songs, catchy heartfelt soul and joyful gospel music (Isaac Hayes, Sam and Dave and the Staple Singers are examples of this golden music).
Then come 1973, the record companies change tack and nearly every artist switches to beat driven sex laden songs with dirty lyrics. These dominated the mid 70s, not to criticise the artists, but the lyrics of Love machine and Lets get it on, do not compare to say Whats going on. The later 70s saw disco a form of music whilst funky and entertaining, was devoid of any intelligence and art, and more importantly, it was non threatening. A good answer they thought to the more brooding and thought provoking funk provided by artists like Parliament. After this all black music had to be hip, trendy and 'urban' devoid of any form of higher intelligence and art. Only a few exalted black musicians gained the ranking mainly Super Negroes like Miles, Stevie, The Marsalis brothers, MJ in a way and most importantly for a brief time Prince. These people were expected to provide high calibre albums, but still their music had to have a catchy hit appeal to it. The rest of the artists were expected to deliver quick money making hits and preferrably short careers were better. This racist attitude has survived to now, where its young black men who provide careers of 2 to 3 years as rappers with nonsenical song lyrics and fall off, yet in their brief fame they exhibit all the negative stereotypes and usually enjoy some brief chart topping success. I mean look at T Pain, Florida and Chingy, their careers arepretty much over. Lil wayne is nearly spent, Lil Jon history. Thats what the record company wants. Most of the ones that have survived have, because of a black owned label or their own label (Eg Ice Cube, Kanye, Prince, Jay Z, Beyonce). Career survival can also be attributed to these artists having real talent (Kanye West), Popularity in white circles (Beyonce) or talent in other areas (Eg Ice Cube's lucrative acting career). But someone like Young Jeezy or Chingy, is clearly a one shot pony, who has 3 slammin hip hop tracks in them at most. Think about these companies set a cretive ceiling for Black artists now and stop them rising above unless they are Super Negroes, a ranking hard to get, but easy to lose. [Edited 2/26/10 18:26pm] [Edited 2/26/10 18:29pm] So what are u going 2 do? R u just gonna sit there and watch? I'm not gonna stop until the war is over. Its gonna take a long time | |
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laurarichardson said: muleFunk said: I agree with the Super Negro theory 100% but this is a factor and is always overlooked in this discussion. In 1995 Prince was placed in the R&B division of Warner Brothers. This was done after Prince had signed a record deal that shook the foundations of the industry. What we found out later was this deal was predicated on him selling 1 million albums. What is often overlooked by fams and critics was how W&B then promoted the following CD and single releases. Prince's single releases then suddenly shifted to R&B themed songs.... Sexy MF and My Name Is Prince were released as the opening singles off the "Symbol" album. I could see Sexy MF as it was released to be a club jam and was a huge hit there but My Name Is Prince flopped.Some will jump up and say that the artist is the main promoter of his or her songs but that's not 100% true. The record company has the final say in the matter. The real drama came when the Come/Gold era materal was ready for release.WB told Prince to release a Greatest Hits album. Prince had just had a comeback with Diamonds and Pearls and had a minor hit Symbol. He had hit materal ready with the Gold/Come materal why a greatest hits record? Then Prince is told in 1994 by a WB suit that he did not have another hit in him. Prince then goes out and hits indy style with TMBGITW. I could go on here but the bottom line was WB was sabotaging Prince to keep him from making that contract work for him. Then someone then set out to destroy him by sabotaging other deals he had with other labels. The biggest example was the Arista deal which had him at Clive Davis throat until he found out Clive was kicked off his own damn label. Clive was replaced by longtime Prince rival L.A. Reid and the Rave project was through. This trend continued until the Musicology deal which the big label promoted the shit out of the record and multiple hits followed. Prince did not help himself during this time but it's obvious that someone was trying to put this "nigger" in his place. Bottom line ..."if the RECORD COMPANY does not want you to have a hit you won't have one. And I don't care who you are." Barry White [Edited 2/24/10 4:31am] ----- Great points. Finally someone who understands what is really going on. In your opinion... | |
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muleFunk said: I agree with the Super Negro theory 100% but this is a factor and is always overlooked in this discussion.
In 1995 Prince was placed in the R&B division of Warner Brothers. This was done after Prince had signed a record deal that shook the foundations of the industry. What we found out later was this deal was predicated on him selling 1 million albums. What is often overlooked by fams and critics was how W&B then promoted the following CD and single releases. Prince's single releases then suddenly shifted to R&B themed songs.... Sexy MF and My Name Is Prince were released as the opening singles off the "Symbol" album. I could see Sexy MF as it was released to be a club jam and was a huge hit there but My Name Is Prince flopped.Some will jump up and say that the artist is the main promoter of his or her songs but that's not 100% true. The record company has the final say in the matter. The real drama came when the Come/Gold era materal was ready for release.WB told Prince to release a Greatest Hits album. Prince had just had a comeback with Diamonds and Pearls and had a minor hit Symbol. He had hit materal ready with the Gold/Come materal why a greatest hits record? Then Prince is told in 1994 by a WB suit that he did not have another hit in him. Prince then goes out and hits indy style with TMBGITW. I could go on here but the bottom line was WB was sabotaging Prince to keep him from making that contract work for him. Then someone then set out to destroy him by sabotaging other deals he had with other labels. The biggest example was the Arista deal which had him at Clive Davis throat until he found out Clive was kicked off his own damn label. Clive was replaced by longtime Prince rival L.A. Reid and the Rave project was through. This trend continued until the Musicology deal which the big label promoted the shit out of the record and multiple hits followed. Prince did not help himself during this time but it's obvious that someone was trying to put this "nigger" in his place. Bottom line ..."if the RECORD COMPANY does not want you to have a hit you won't have one. And I don't care who you are." Barry White [Edited 2/24/10 4:31am] Excellent post. | |
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Some people have racist attitudes so sometimes the achievements of black artists are undervalued. But I doubt that this is more than a minor explanation when Prince fans complain. If you're a fan of Prince and think he has a great talent, you're probably not a racist because then you wouldn't acknowledge a black man's great talent. When unrealistic expectations occur I think it's mostly people being a bit greedy. Prince has created so much brilliant music through the years that some fans have become spoiled. | |
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pald1 said: laurarichardson said: ----- Great points. Finally someone who understands what is really going on. In your opinion... ----- Yes, because the non-bitchers have a right to have one. | |
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Well said Huggiebear. Great post. | |
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This post is ironic with the overzealous reaction (on both sides) of the new Prince song...Just saying.... | |
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murph said: Reading the recent rash of "Prince Has Lost It" threads got me thinking about the exceptional expectations placed on some music artists...After doing a little research I've come to a conclusion:
I believe we are dealing with the "Super Negro Theory".... After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out... This is not a simplistic case of black artists being judged unfairly when it comes to their white counterparts....If you ask me if Justin Timberlake deserves more acclaim, respect, and credit for his art than say an Usher, I would give a resounding YES...Because after all, as annoying as Timberlake can be, he actually proved himself given that he writes, produces, and at times plays on his own material (which is much more nuanced than Usher's work) and gives a more polished and complete live show when Usher still relies heavily on songwriters and producers to make him relevant and keep up with the Tre Songz of the world.... BUT, here's the RUB...THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS Either we are expected to be "entertainers" who rely heavily on the machine or we are expected to be THE SUPER NEGRO...And the crazy part is, we are ALL (black, white, asian, latino ect, ect...) to blame... So what is the SUPER NEGRO you ask? It's the self-contained artist who is deemed to have otherworldly musical powers...People don't view their art as coming from some intellectual, witty world view (I.E. Bob Dylan or Bowie).....They look at the SUPER NEGRO as being somehow mystical...a talent whose' art cannot be explained without hyperbole...Talent that comes naturally and not from good ol fashioned skill and hard work.. Through the years, there have been many notable SUPER NEGROS: Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, James Brown, Sun-Ra, Bob Marley, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Aretha Franklin, Michael Jackson, Prince, Rakim....These artists are looked at beyond being "good" musicians or vocalists/performers...In some cases the super negro has to live up to the hype of CHANGING the course of their respective musical genre, not just producing a good song...They can't just create a song to be enjoyed by the masses...They have to write, produce, arrange, play on, and sing on the material in order to be taken seriously as an artist...They can't be Madonna... So how does the SUPER NEGRO THEORY fit into the recent Prince-Is-Finished threads?... Just look at the way their EXCEPTIONAL white peers are treated...I recall when Stevie Wonder released Hotter Than July some critics complained that it was not as ambitious as Songs In The Key of Life...They balked at the nerve of Stevie Wonder just releasing an "R&B" album that didn't push the boundaries of music...How dare he!!!...They deemed it a "good' album, and that's as far as they would go.....Now let's flip to when Bruce Springsteen releases Born In The USA...There was no mention of the album being less artistic than Nebraska...In fact critics lauded Bruce for being able to expand his musical base and reach out to the masses with his dignity intact...You gotta love it, huh? But the Super Negro Theory goes into overdrive once an artist gets past their prime...and here is where Prince fits in.... I will be the first to say that there have been lackluster and suck ass Prince albums (The Symbol album, Chaos & Disorder, New Power Soul, some of Musicology...ect...)...I have not always been happy with the man's work...But my expectations of him have always been reasonable...It's the same reasonable expectations that Bruce Springsteen fans have on the Boss...He can make a back-to-basics, roots-heavy album influnced by Woody Guthrie and no one (not his fans) would ever accuse him of leaning lazily on his influences...Neil Young can make a country-based album and his fans will judge it on the bases of it quality, not whether or not it strikes the same introspective chord as Harvest... Yet, Prince (The Super Negro) has to keep pushing forward...If he's not re-inventing the musical wheel he is deemed as finished...If he makes music that recalls his own prominent influence (James Brown) he is looked at as being a JB cover band...Remember, the Super Negro cannot simply just make music just 'cause...He/she has to be conceptual, original at all times, and recall the levels of their greatest years..... But the truth is, we are all accomplices here.......Instead of judging Stevie, Sly, Prince and the like on the same curve as their white counterparts we look at them as being more than human...We hold on dear to the whole "written, produced, performed, composed" tag for dear life, instead appreciating the fact that at the end of it all, these acts are just musicians who happened to get their chance to shine... Prince's music today reminds us all that we get old...We struggle to re-live our prime years...And for some folks, they have come to terms with this, choosing to connect with him on very specific levels (such as his live show, which is still viewed by many to be pretty damn good) and not just the albums... Others,however, depend on Prince to make GREAT, challenging music to help them cope with the fact that they are no longer in their own prime years...Thay are not the same person they used to be when Prince could do no wrong in the '80s...Prince's current Golden Years state is a brutal reminder that all of our prime years are behind us....This is a painful realization, ya'll.... In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be... Life is more easier that way, right? [Edited 2/20/10 12:04pm] I don't know about this. I don't think any of the negativity about Prince's new music has to do with him being black. It's more to do with Prince's worldview being so small, that he writes a lot of self centered, meandering music. If it's anyone who brought the "Super Negro" theory into Prince discussions, it's Prince himself, when he pandered to the hip hop crowd with Diamonds and Pearls/Love Symbol. At that time, he seemed to feel like he had something to prove to the black audience, that he was also black, so here's some current black music. He cheapened himself and his music that way. The stigma has stuck, as Prince seems to be afraid to write any real music. | |
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I don't know about this. I don't think any of the negativity about Prince's new music has to do with him being black. It's more to do with Prince's worldview being so small, that he writes a lot of self centered, meandering music. If it's anyone who brought the "Super Negro" theory into Prince discussions, it's Prince himself, when he pandered to the hip hop crowd with Diamonds and Pearls/Love Symbol. At that time, he seemed to feel like he had something to prove to the black audience, that he was also black, so here's some current black music. He cheapened himself and his music that way. The stigma has stuck, as Prince seems to be afraid to write any real music.[/quote]
^^ So back on the third or fourth page of this thread I tried to articulate this sentiment in an epically long response. Why did you have to do a better job in four or five sentences with what I was trying to accomplish in 14 pages? Thanks alot!!!!!  | |
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--nm [Edited 3/1/10 7:21am] | |
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This is an interesting thread and i've enjoyed reading it. Its strange because i've never thought of Prince as "black", that specific thought has never crossed my mind. Like i dont specifically see myself as "white". Just always thought of Prince as human i suppose. | |
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laurarichardson said: pald1 said: In your opinion... ----- Yes, because the non-bitchers have a right to have one. Kudos for owning up to it. | |
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muleFunk said: I agree with the Super Negro theory 100% but this is a factor and is always overlooked in this discussion. In 1995 Prince was placed in the R&B division of Warner Brothers. This was done after Prince had signed a record deal that shook the foundations of the industry. What we found out later was this deal was predicated on him selling 1 million albums. What is often overlooked by fams and critics was how W&B then promoted the following CD and single releases. Prince's single releases then suddenly shifted to R&B themed songs.... Sexy MF and My Name Is Prince were released as the opening singles off the "Symbol" album. I could see Sexy MF as it was released to be a club jam and was a huge hit there but My Name Is Prince flopped.Some will jump up and say that the artist is the main promoter of his or her songs but that's not 100% true. The record company has the final say in the matter. The real drama came when the Come/Gold era materal was ready for release.WB told Prince to release a Greatest Hits album. Prince had just had a comeback with Diamonds and Pearls and had a minor hit Symbol. He had hit materal ready with the Gold/Come materal why a greatest hits record? Then Prince is told in 1994 by a WB suit that he did not have another hit in him. Prince then goes out and hits indy style with TMBGITW. I could go on here but the bottom line was WB was sabotaging Prince to keep him from making that contract work for him. Then someone then set out to destroy him by sabotaging other deals he had with other labels. The biggest example was the Arista deal which had him at Clive Davis throat until he found out Clive was kicked off his own damn label. Clive was replaced by longtime Prince rival L.A. Reid and the Rave project was through. This trend continued until the Musicology deal which the big label promoted the shit out of the record and multiple hits followed. Prince did not help himself during this time but it's obvious that someone was trying to put this "nigger" in his place. Bottom line ..."if the RECORD COMPANY does not want you to have a hit you won't have one. And I don't care who you are." Barry White . | |
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Fenwick said: I don't know about this. I don't think any of the negativity about Prince's new music has to do with him being black. It's more to do with Prince's worldview being so small, that he writes a lot of self centered, meandering music. If it's anyone who brought the "Super Negro" theory into Prince discussions, it's Prince himself, when he pandered to the hip hop crowd with Diamonds and Pearls/Love Symbol. At that time, he seemed to feel like he had something to prove to the black audience, that he was also black, so here's some current black music. He cheapened himself and his music that way. The stigma has stuck, as Prince seems to be afraid to write any real music.
^^ So back on the third or fourth page of this thread I tried to articulate this sentiment in an epically long response. Why did you have to do a better job in four or five sentences with what I was trying to accomplish in 14 pages? Thanks alot!!!!! [/quote]
If only it was that easy..... | |
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murph said: After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out... here's the problem with that theory. every single one of the artists you named went through some very lean creative years when they put out crap that nobody cared about because it not very good or interesting or they were following some weird muse that only they and their cat cared about or were chasing some kinds of trends or forgot where their strengths lied. they all came out of it. and they're all older than Prince. Prince might not be done with that phase yet. Or he might be coming out of it. There are flashes of him actually doing something interesting on LF and MPLSound that have been missing for about 14 years now, with a (very) few notable exceptions. Dylan? Young? Mitchell? Springsteen? McCartney? Bowie? there were periods where all of these artists straight up sucked and couldn't do anything right to please critics, fans, or record buyers. I don't see it as a double standard. I just see it as them being 10-20 years older than him and having already come out of that phase. the ironic thing about Prince is that it's during these fallow years that he's actually gained a lot of respect from peers, observers and commentators, and his legacy as a living legend has been cemented. one of these days, Prince is going to stop worrying about what the latest slang is, what trendy beats and vocal effects he thinks he has to keep up with and what-not, and he's going to get back to just making Prince music. From Musicology onward, we've gotten moments of this on record, but they're standing side-by-side with aforementioned bullshit tendencies, sometimes even within the same song. but he's still too preoccupied with making every song a hit, and his instincts in that regard are completely wrong for who he is and what his talents are. you can hear it in the production, the lyrics, the name-dropping. all of those artists when through varying degrees of lameness at some point and got called on it. strangely, thuought, it seems like the press and the critics are giving him something of a pass while it's the fans who are actually more critical and vocal about it. the sane ones, anyway. | |
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errant said: murph said: After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out... here's the problem with that theory. every single one of the artists you named went through some very lean creative years when they put out crap that nobody cared about because it not very good or interesting or they were following some weird muse that only they and their cat cared about or were chasing some kinds of trends or forgot where their strengths lied. they all came out of it. and they're all older than Prince. Prince might not be done with that phase yet. Or he might be coming out of it. There are flashes of him actually doing something interesting on LF and MPLSound that have been missing for about 14 years now, with a (very) few notable exceptions. Dylan? Young? Mitchell? Springsteen? McCartney? Bowie? there were periods where all of these artists straight up sucked and couldn't do anything right to please critics, fans, or record buyers. I don't see it as a double standard. I just see it as them being 10-20 years older than him and having already come out of that phase. the ironic thing about Prince is that it's during these fallow years that he's actually gained a lot of respect from peers, observers and commentators, and his legacy as a living legend has been cemented. one of these days, Prince is going to stop worrying about what the latest slang is, what trendy beats and vocal effects he thinks he has to keep up with and what-not, and he's going to get back to just making Prince music. From Musicology onward, we've gotten moments of this on record, but they're standing side-by-side with aforementioned bullshit tendencies, sometimes even within the same song. but he's still too preoccupied with making every song a hit, and his instincts in that regard are completely wrong for who he is and what his talents are. you can hear it in the production, the lyrics, the name-dropping. all of those artists when through varying degrees of lameness at some point and got called on it. strangely, thuought, it seems like the press and the critics are giving him something of a pass while it's the fans who are actually more critical and vocal about it. the sane ones, anyway. Yes.....but the difference is those artists above were usually judged on their own merits...In other words, Neil Young received bad reviews for some of his early '80s work, not because it didn't reach the greatness of Harvest or pushed some magical musical envelope...He got criticized because the music sucked... If all the criticism of Prince's latest output was sparked ONLY because people felt the music was simply horrid, I could deal with that....But that hasn't been the case....It's no longer about music being good or bad....It's about whether or not Prince can reach the heights of his prime years...Or whether or not he can blow your mind with his music... The irony is, Prince is basically being pronounced dead because of a horrid NFL fight song and a uneven pop rocker released to an indie radio station....When Prince releases an entire album that sounds like the embarrassing "Purple & Gold" then I will say all the hyperbole will be well warranted...But until then, he should be judged like Bruce, Neil and the like: Acts all past their primes who can pull out the occasional good song and still kill it onstage... As is, he's not...Because for the most part Prince fans are certifiable... | |
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murph said: errant said: here's the problem with that theory. every single one of the artists you named went through some very lean creative years when they put out crap that nobody cared about because it not very good or interesting or they were following some weird muse that only they and their cat cared about or were chasing some kinds of trends or forgot where their strengths lied. they all came out of it. and they're all older than Prince. Prince might not be done with that phase yet. Or he might be coming out of it. There are flashes of him actually doing something interesting on LF and MPLSound that have been missing for about 14 years now, with a (very) few notable exceptions. Dylan? Young? Mitchell? Springsteen? McCartney? Bowie? there were periods where all of these artists straight up sucked and couldn't do anything right to please critics, fans, or record buyers. I don't see it as a double standard. I just see it as them being 10-20 years older than him and having already come out of that phase. the ironic thing about Prince is that it's during these fallow years that he's actually gained a lot of respect from peers, observers and commentators, and his legacy as a living legend has been cemented. one of these days, Prince is going to stop worrying about what the latest slang is, what trendy beats and vocal effects he thinks he has to keep up with and what-not, and he's going to get back to just making Prince music. From Musicology onward, we've gotten moments of this on record, but they're standing side-by-side with aforementioned bullshit tendencies, sometimes even within the same song. but he's still too preoccupied with making every song a hit, and his instincts in that regard are completely wrong for who he is and what his talents are. you can hear it in the production, the lyrics, the name-dropping. all of those artists when through varying degrees of lameness at some point and got called on it. strangely, thuought, it seems like the press and the critics are giving him something of a pass while it's the fans who are actually more critical and vocal about it. the sane ones, anyway. Yes.....but the difference is those artists above were usually judged on their own merits...In other words, Neil Young received bad reviews for some of his early '80s work, not because it didn't reach the greatness of Harvest or pushed some magical musical envelope...He got criticized because the music sucked... If all the criticism of Prince's latest output was sparked ONLY because people felt the music was simply horrid, I could deal with that....But that hasn't been the case....It's no longer about music being good or bad....It's about whether or not Prince can reach the heights of his prime years...Or whether or not he can blow your mind with his music... The irony is, Prince is basically being pronounced dead because of a horrid NFL fight song and a uneven pop rocker released to an indie radio station....When Prince releases an entire album that sounds like the embarrassing "Purple & Gold" then I will say all the hyperbole will be well warranted...But until then, he should be judged like Bruce, Neil and the like: Acts all past their primes who can pull out the occasional good song and still kill it onstage... As is, he's not...Because for the most part Prince fans are certifiable... I think the problem is that most of the hardcore criticism claiming he was over because of "Purple & Gold" came from outside of the music press. He stepped outside of music into a completely different venue, which is the sports side of entertainment. For people outside of music circles, Prince is washed up, over, done, and has been for 15 years. The song is horrid and was presented an an egotistical way as a gift from Prince to the Vikings. I bet he never even considered that there would be a negative reaction to it because he's disappared so far up his own ass and down this path of pseudo-political, quasi-religious mumbo jumbo , that he didn't realize how horrible it was, especially for its intended purpose. Between Purple & Gold and Cause & Effect, Prince has seriously needed to be taken down a few pegs in his own mind. It's the only way he's ever going to come out of this phase where he continually throws out uninspired, overblown crap as if it's the next 1999 or Purple Rain or SOTT. We all used to (and some of us still do) say "Prince could write hits in his sleep, if he wanted to" or things to that effect. But I think it's clear from the last 6 years or so that that is no longer the case and it hasn't been. Because almost everything he releases has the stench of desperation to be a hit. And to make it worse, his attitude behind it is "this isn't a hit because radio and record labels are evil" is partly true, but just doesn't cut it because the material just doesn't rise to the level that he thinks it does. the two most recent songs we've heard are complete trainwrecks and didn't deserve to be heard by anyone besides Prince and the guy in the soundbooth recording them, yet they are passed off as gifts from God to the Vikings and a radio station. if Joni Mitchell or Paul McCartney or Neil Young or any of the previously mentioned acts put out this crap, the same bloggers and commentators outside of the music arena would be saying "wow, what a piece of crap. they're totally washed up has-beens" etc. because as far as thos people concerned, none of those artists has done anything worthwhile in 30 years because they haven't heard it. But back to your point... those artists that had those awful years were also getting the "has-been, never be as good as they were" criticism. And honestly? None of them are. But enough time passed and they drifted off the radar long enough to let those expectations of the fans, critics, and even themselves fall away and are now focused on just crafting good music to be judged on its own terms. Prince isn't there yet. He's not crafting good music meant to just be good and taken on those terms. He's still trying like hell to top himself. He's got a little bit of that Michael-Jackson-always-trying-to-top-Thriller mentality. Prince isn't there yet because he's still acting like he wants hits instead of just focusing on creating good music for good music's sake. I thought there for awhile in 2001-2003 that's what he'd settled on, whatever the flaws of that particular music (bizarre lyrics and boring watered-down jazz), but it sounded like he'd found a sound that interested him and wanted to explore. But everything since then has sounded like it was crafted to be his next big hit. Every single song. There really isn't much difference between his last 5 albums and Rave, except that the quality has marginally increased to varying degrees.. But it's still got most of the flaws that his late horrible 90's suffered from. Prince hasn't come out of his fallow period beacause he keeps repeating the same mistakes, chasing a hit that is never going to be there. All of the other people mentioned in these posts gave up on it and just decided to focus on what they do best and it's paid dividends for them. They don't have hits, per se, but they have all managed to build back the respect by just focusing on doing what they do best instead of trying to keep up with what's new and current. Prince hasn't done that. He still wants to keep up with every new kid on the block by trying the same things that haven't worked in the context of his abilities over and over. | |
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sgmusic said: MEXICAN ITALIAN?????
Mods...somebody revoke this cats org card [Edited 2/25/10 7:02am] I 2nd that U can cut off all my fins - But 2 your ways I will not bend
I'll die before I let U tell me how 2 swim And I'll come back again as a dolphin | |
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Sash said: This is an interesting thread and i've enjoyed reading it. Its strange because i've never thought of Prince as "black", that specific thought has never crossed my mind. Like i dont specifically see myself as "white". Just always thought of Prince as human i suppose.
If only everybody did. "Not to sound cosmic, but I've made plans for the next 3,000 years," he says. "Before, it was only three days at a time." | |
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errant said:[quote] murph said: All of the other people mentioned in these posts gave up on it and just decided to focus on what they do best and it's paid dividends for them. They don't have hits, per se, but they have all managed to build back the respect by just focusing on doing what they do best instead of trying to keep up with what's new and current. Prince hasn't done that. He still wants to keep up with every new kid on the block by trying the same things that haven't worked in the context of his abilities over and over.
I didn't know the LotusFlower release was trying to keep up with the youngins?....I wasn't aware that doing a cover of a nearly 40 plus year old song ("Crimson & Clover") or tracks that tapped into his Linn-drum style (Dance 4 Me, Here, ect..) was Prince's attempt to reach Trey Songz' fans....Hey, you learn something new everyday....lol Listen, it's ok to say that you don't like dude's current output...I've done it many times...But you have to at least have a better excuse than saying he's trying to stay current...That's just silly... | |
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murph said:[quote] errant said: murph said: All of the other people mentioned in these posts gave up on it and just decided to focus on what they do best and it's paid dividends for them. They don't have hits, per se, but they have all managed to build back the respect by just focusing on doing what they do best instead of trying to keep up with what's new and current. Prince hasn't done that. He still wants to keep up with every new kid on the block by trying the same things that haven't worked in the context of his abilities over and over.
I didn't know the LotusFlower release was trying to keep up with the youngins?....I wasn't aware that doing a cover of a nearly 40 plus year old song ("Crimson & Clover") or tracks that tapped into his Linn-drum style (Dance 4 Me, Here, ect..) was Prince's attempt to reach Trey Songz' fans....Hey, you learn something new everyday....lol Listen, it's ok to say that you don't like dude's current output...I've done it many times...But you have to at least have a better excuse than saying he's trying to stay current...That's just silly... Hey Murph I've dug the back and forth on a lot of this thread. You've mostly been receptive to other points of view, while trying to hold on to your own. Yet with my last post and now this one, you've resorted to snarky little remarks. "Oh if only it was that easy" "...come up with a better excuse because that one is silly". Frankly, and I'm not tyring to pick a fight, but those are the type of things that make me lose respect for the "arguer's" point of view. In these types of discussions, you are not "right" and I am not "wrong". We have varying opinions on the avenues some fans/critics/supporters/dissenters take on, in this case, Prince's fall from grace. (Again, if one deems Prince HAS fallen from grace). One thing I would personally like to clarify from my previous post, I don't necessarily think Prince brought the Super Negro theory on to himself by trying to cater to what's popular and/or black. I just think he took a creative turn that has not yielded good results. Whether or not that is because he is incapable of writing super creative material anymore, or he genuinely prefers his new course, I am certainly not in a postiion to ascertain such things. I just know what I like and what I don't like. And while Prince may not have released a flawless album for me personally since the late 80's, he certainly has released many tracks that I really dig. What's funny is, even the users on here whose opinions I have the most in common with sharply disagree with me on his ONA piano and Chocolate Invasion/Slaughterhouse output. I think those albums have far more better tracks on them than almost anything else in the 2000s. Same goes for the Gold Experience/Come era. I find most of that tired. I'd rather listen to Emancipation. Which of those is more "black"? Which of those is more "white"? I'm sorry but Prince's blackness simply does not enter into my mind when judging these tunes. The songs are the songs. I can guarantee you that there will be many people who think songs like Jam of the Year or Sex in the Summer are absolute cheese while a song like All That Glitters Ain't Gold is a beautiful anthemic piece of music. I happen to think of them the other way around even though I far prefer organic instruments to the techy sound. I'm not going to change what I like to appease anyone, and neither are you. We all like what we all like. All this being said, I was thinking more on this and another person came to mind. James Brown. I believe the end of his era of creativity came around mid 1974. he had an amazing 15 to 20 year run and then it was like he ran into a brick wall after the Hell album. That being said, I don't know a single person who defamed James Brown musically as a has been during the last 25 years of his life. (Granted I know he had personal issues, but that's not what we're discussing here). He had given so much and had influenced so many people, that even when he essentially became a stage act, he was revered. People accepted that. Does he fit your super negro theory too? What about Stevie Wonder? Why are we only talking about Neil Young and Joni Mitchell? There are dozens of cats from both sides of this equation we could base this discussion around. I think there are some really great points being made here around a faulty premise. That in and of itself doesn't mean this discussion does not have merit or your (or my) points have been wasted at all. I'm glad discussions like this can be had. I only bring up your snarky remarks because they are unbecoming of a discussion like this. It reeks of "hey everyone here's my theory and you're "silly" to try and prove it wrong" instead of "let me share some thoughts with you and see if you can poke holes in it before I commit it to a personal truth". I hope you understand I'm not trying to lecture/patronize, just trying to tell you how it comes across to me. Be well.... [Edited 3/1/10 13:13pm] [Edited 3/1/10 13:14pm] [Edited 3/1/10 13:16pm] | |
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Fenwick said: murph said: I didn't know the LotusFlower release was trying to keep up with the youngins?....I wasn't aware that doing a cover of a nearly 40 plus year old song ("Crimson & Clover") or tracks that tapped into his Linn-drum style (Dance 4 Me, Here, ect..) was Prince's attempt to reach Trey Songz' fans....Hey, you learn something new everyday....lol Listen, it's ok to say that you don't like dude's current output...I've done it many times...But you have to at least have a better excuse than saying he's trying to stay current...That's just silly... Hey Murph I've dug the back and forth on a lot of this thread. You've mostly been receptive to other points of view, while trying to hold on to your own. Yet with my last post and now this one, you've resorted to snarky little remarks. "Oh if only it was that easy" "...come up with a better excuse because that one is silly". Frankly, and I'm not tyring to pick a fight, but those are the type of things that make me lose respect for the "arguer's" point of view. In these types of discussions, you are not "right" and I am not "wrong". We have varying opinions on the avenues some fans/critics/supporters/dissenters take on, in this case, Prince's fall from grace. (Again, if one deems Prince HAS fallen from grace). One thing I would personally like to clarify from my previous post, I don't necessarily think Prince brought the Super Negro theory on to himself by trying to cater to what's popular and/or black. I just think he took a creative turn that has not yielded good results. Whether or not that is because he is incapable of writing super creative material anymore, or he genuinely prefers his new course, I am certainly not in a postiion to ascertain such things. I just know what I like and what I don't like. And while Prince may not have released a flawless album for me personally since the late 80's, he certainly has released many tracks that I really dig. What's funny is, even the users on here whose opinions I have the most in common with sharply disagree with me on his ONA piano and Chocolate Invasion/Slaughterhouse output. I think those albums have far more better tracks on them than almost anything else in the 2000s. Same goes for the Gold Experience/Come era. I find most of that tired. I'd rather listen to Emancipation. Which of those is more "black"? Which of those is more "white"? I'm sorry but Prince's blackness simply does not enter into my mind when judging these tunes. The songs are the songs. I can guarantee you that there will be many people who think songs like Jam of the Year or Sex in the Summer are absolute cheese while a song like All That Glitters Ain't Gold is a beautiful anthemic piece of music. I happen to think of them the other way around even though I far prefer organic instruments to the techy sound. I'm not going to change what I like to appease anyone, and neither are you. We all like what we all like. All this being said, I was thinking more on this and another person came to mind. James Brown. I believe the end of his era of creativity came around mid 1974. he had an amazing 15 to 20 year run and then it was like he ran into a brick wall after the Hell album. That being said, I don't know a single person who defamed James Brown musically as a has been during the last 25 years of his life. (Granted I know he had personal issues, but that's not what we're discussing here). He had given so much and had influenced so many people, that even when he essentially became a stage act, he was revered. People accepted that. Does he fit your super negro theory too? What about Stevie Wonder? Why are we only talking about Neil Young and Joni Mitchell? There are dozens of cats from both sides of this equation we could base this discussion around. I think there are some really great points being made here around a faulty premise. That in and of itself doesn't mean this discussion does not have merit or your (or my) points have been wasted at all. I'm glad discussions like this can be had. I only bring up your snarky remarks because they are unbecoming of a discussion like this. It reeks of "hey everyone here's my theory and you're "silly" to try and prove it wrong" instead of "let me share some thoughts with you and see if you can poke holes in it before I commit it to a personal truth". I hope you understand I'm not trying to lecture/patronize, just trying to tell you how it comes across to me. Be well.... [Edited 3/1/10 13:13pm] [Edited 3/1/10 13:14pm] [Edited 3/1/10 13:16pm] I believe I was speaking to Errant....Unless I am mistaken...And if you think I'm snarky, you really haven't been reading some of the disrespectful things that have been said on this site...lol...It's not that serious homie...Be good and stay positive...Oh yeah...u didn't read my entire original post...I mentioned Stevie Wonder...Big time...As always...Peace... [Edited 3/1/10 14:03pm] | |
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This murph character is pulling it all out of his own ass and he knows it.... | |
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pald1 said: This murph character is pulling it all out of his own ass and he knows it....
And that one cat was calling me snarky?....lol.... | |
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