It's a thought provoking theory from the standpoint that the dynamic exists to one degree or another in other professions. It hadn't occurred to me with regard to musicians in general or Prince peeps in particular.

And Toejam's observation is not without merit as a factor that feeds into the dynamic in that Prince goes out of his way to maintain a certain mystique. Regardless of how much of it is genuine and how much is contrived, I think it bears consideration as another factor that impacts the mindset of his fanbase.

Not sure which factor weighs more heavily at this point...nevertheless, I appreciate your insights murph and I hope the discussion continues on a thoughtful basis with a minimum of the usual clowning. Good thread.

Reading the recent rash of "Prince Has Lost It" threads got me thinking about the exceptional expectations placed on some music artists...After doing a little research I've come to a conclusion:

I believe we are dealing with the "Super Negro Theory"....

After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out...

This is not a simplistic case of black artists being judged unfairly when it comes to their white counterparts....If you ask me if Justin Timberlake deserves more acclaim, respect, and credit for his art than say an Usher, I would give a resounding YES...Because after all, as annoying as Timberlake can be, he actually proved himself given that he writes, produces, and at times plays on his own material (which is much more nuanced than Usher's work) and gives a more polished and complete live show when Usher still relies heavily on songwriters and producers to make him relevant and keep up with the Tre Songz of the world....

BUT, here's the RUB...THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS

Either we are expected to be "entertainers" who rely heavily on the machine or we are expected to be THE SUPER NEGRO...And the crazy part is, we are ALL (black, white, asian, latino ect, ect...) to blame...

So what is the SUPER NEGRO you ask? It's the self-contained artist who is deemed to have otherworldly musical powers...People don't view their art as coming from some intellectual, witty world view (I.E. Bob Dylan or Bowie).....They look at the SUPER NEGRO as being somehow mystical...a talent whose' art cannot be explained without hyperbole...Talent that comes naturally and not from good ol fashioned skill and hard work..

Through the years, there have been many notable SUPER NEGROS: Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, James Brown, Sun-Ra, Bob Marley, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Aretha Franklin, Michael Jackson, Prince, Rakim....These artists are looked at beyond being "good" musicians or vocalists/performers...In some cases the super negro has to live up to the hype of CHANGING the course of their respective musical genre, not just producing a good song...They can't just create a song to be enjoyed by the masses...They have to write, produce, arrange, play on, and sing on the material in order to be taken seriously as an artist...They can't be Madonna...

So how does the SUPER NEGRO THEORY fit into the recent Prince-Is-Finished threads?...

Just look at the way their EXCEPTIONAL white peers are treated...I recall when Stevie Wonder released Hotter Than July some critics complained that it was not as ambitious as Songs In The Key of Life...They balked at the nerve of Stevie Wonder just releasing an "R&B" album that didn't push the boundaries of music...How dare he!!!...They deemed it a "good' album, and that's as far as they would go.....Now let's flip to when Bruce Springsteen releases Born In The USA...There was no mention of the album being less artistic than Nebraska...In fact critics lauded Bruce for being able to expand his musical base and reach out to the masses with his dignity intact...You gotta love it, huh?

But the Super Negro Theory goes into overdrive once an artist gets past their prime...and here is where Prince fits in....

I will be the first to say that there have been lackluster and suck ass Prince albums (The Symbol album, Chaos & Disorder, New Power Soul, some of Musicology...ect...)...I have not always been happy with the man's work...But my expectations of him have always been reasonable...It's the same reasonable expectations that Bruce Springsteen fans have on the Boss...He can make a back-to-basics, roots-heavy album influnced by Woody Guthrie and no one (not his fans) would ever accuse him of leaning lazily on his influences...Neil Young can make a country-based album and his fans will judge it on the bases of it quality, not whether or not it strikes the same introspective chord as Harvest...

Yet, Prince (The Super Negro) has to keep pushing forward...If he's not re-inventing the musical wheel he is deemed as finished...If he makes music that recalls his own prominent influence (James Brown) he is looked at as being a JB cover band...Remember, the Super Negro cannot simply just make music just 'cause...He/she has to be conceptual, original at all times, and recall the levels of their greatest years.....

But the truth is, we are all accomplices here.......Instead of judging Stevie, Sly, Prince and the like on the same curve as their white counterparts we look at them as being more than human...We hold on dear to the whole "written, produced, performed, composed" tag for dear life, instead appreciating the fact that at the end of it all, these acts are just musicians who happened to get their chance to shine...

Prince's music today reminds us all that we get old...We struggle to re-live our prime years...And for some folks, they have come to terms with this, choosing to connect with him on very specific levels (such as his live show, which is still viewed by many to be pretty damn good) and not just the albums...

Others,however, depend on Prince to make GREAT, challenging music to help them cope with the fact that they are no longer in their own prime years...Thay are not the same person they used to be when Prince could do no wrong in the '80s...Prince's current Golden Years state is a brutal reminder that all of our prime years are behind us....This is a painful realization, ya'll....

In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be...

Life is more easier that way, right?
[Edited 2/20/10 12:04pm]

Lol long ..... have you ever seen a thing called a book...

It amazes me the internet is made of words and people refuse to read anything more than 3 lines.

Try it some time you might like it.

I couldn't agree more. Good reading habits are extremely important, (book lover's rant)

As for the origonal poster , it's a well thought out theory, but I can't say I totaly agree, I think the main problem is people want that feeling and emotion they felt when they where of a different age and lifestyle, and the particular album they hold next to that emotion is always what they want from the next release. Due to there life being in a different place now they are disapointed when they do not feel that relived experiance everytime even though it is an unreasonable expectation.
[Edited 2/20/10 12:15pm]


Good observation although in fairness, murph did allude to those sentiments in the next to last paragraph of his essay.

I don't really agree with any of this. It's not fair to compare Prince to David Bowie or Neil Young cause all those artists do different things. David Bowie IS more intellectual than Prince. Neil Young gets kudos for doing the same thing year after years, and that's a totally different ball of wax than what Prince does. I am personally confused as to why Bruce Springsteen ever got props for anything that he ever did, but I don't believe he got props merely cause he was white.

Basically, what you are saying is that musicians of color are more scrutinized than white skinned musicians. This sort of assumes that Stevie Wonder and Prince are unpopular (among other issues), and that is just plain not true, as far as I can see.

On one hand, American style white supremacy is always ever present. I think it's good to try and discuss that, but the argument you are making here is really unfocused. I don't understand why people here are agreeing with your essay, actually. You don't really present any evidence and you are being really general.

Can you give one good specific example of what you are talking about?

murph said:

So true. But I think it should be called what it was meant to be called; the "Supa Nigga Theory".

I don't really agree with any of this. It's not fair to compare Prince to David Bowie or Neil Young cause all those artists do different things. David Bowie IS more intellectual than Prince.

BlackandRising said:

I guess we should call it what it is...lol

murph said:

Nah, leave it PC...we don't want a bunch of snips or a possible lock.

JudasLChrist said:

I think my Springsteen/Stevie example works...There's plenty more....

JudasLChrist said:

...And thanks for proving my point....

BlackandRising said:

I guess we should call it what it is...lol

murph said:

That doesn't prove yr point. It's true! The only book I ever heard Prince talk about reading was The Bible. David Bowie talks about Christopher Isherwood and Genet and blah, blah, blah... Same with Dylan. Dylan had freaking Allen Ginsberg on his records. Those guys were arty and literate in a very self conscious way. Prince came from a whole another scene. I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. You don't NEED to be intellectual to make great music.

murph said:

OK, Springsteen never put out anything on par with SITKOL, Innervisions, Music of my Mind, etc... I don't think anyone ever thought that. Stevie set the bar really high for himself, that was an amazing, era-defining set of albums. Now I don't think I've ever read any reviews of Hot in the Shade, and I remember how much I hated Springsteen in the 80s...

So, you are saying that someone gave Hot in the Shade a bad review cause it wasn't as ambitious as SITKOL (which it isn't), and therefore THAT shows that black musicians are more scrutinized than white musicians?

I don't buy that. No-one was saying that Bruce Springsteen was a musical genius like Stevie to begin with.

(I'll take In a Square Circle over Born in the USA anyday, so that's where I stand)

JudasLChrist said:

So, the only book you've heard of Prince talking about reading is the Bible, ergo, this must be the only book he's ever read. The logic here is overwhelming.
[Edited 2/20/10 19:18pm]

BlackandRising said:

I didn't say that was the only book he ever read, nor did I say he wasn't smart. What I said was that Bowie took a more self consciously arty and literate approach to his performance and songwriting. Prince took a different approach. That should be inoffensive.

BlackandRising said:

I didn't say that was the only book he ever read, nor did I say he wasn't smart. What I said was that Bowie took a more self consciously arty and literate approach to his performance and songwriting. Prince took a different approach. That should be inoffensive.

JudasLChrist said:

no but that's the implication, given that you said that Bowie was literally more "intellectual" since you've only heard Prince refer to the Bible as a book he's read. I wasn't offended, just taken aback at the leaps people take due to what they think they think they know on a subject that they can't know anything about.
I do agree with you in that it's a different approach in styles. That does not mean that Prince is less of an intellectual, it simply means he chose not to write in that style. I do not think we can make a valid judgement on who is more or less intellectual based on the little we can know about what a particular musician reads or whatever metric you use to determine who is an "intellectual".

JudasLChrist said:

Nah...Springsteen put out some huge critically acclaimed albums in the late '70s and early '80s...Hell, Nebraska is looked as a landmark album....A great statement from an artist who was already billed as the future of rock n roll in the '70s even before he went platinum....

Let's try to think outside the box here...This is not about critics giving Hotter Than July (not Shade) less than stellar reviews than SITKOL...It's about the expectations placed on Stevie to ALWAYS make an album on the level of his '70's run....There's no margin for error for the Super Negro...It's the same reason Miles Davis got shitted on for making On The Corner (now years later viewed as a classic)....

It's the same reason why Springsteen can make a folk record like We Shall Overcome and not have his fans complain about how he's looking back or that he's not on the cutting edge....Meanwhile, Prince gives a nod to James Brown and he's treading artistic water...

It is what it is....

murph said:

For real, though...I hate stepping around this issue when it comes to Prince. It's like a brotha can't play guitar, play rock and roll and still be a brotha. So when my friends discuss this in straight African-American vernacular, it has special meaning, one that can in no way, shape or form come across in a thread on the internet. They are pretty passionate about it and I learn so much about black music from them when I'm allowed to be there with these guys when they discuss these things. I would almost say that these people are on some kind of genius level with their recall of musicians, what they played, how they played it, etc., etc. Pretty amazing when discussed as it should be discussed.

JudasLChrist said:

I don't think it's offensive but I don't see it as a sound basis to conclude that Prince is less intellectual.

murph said:

What's annoying about yr essay it that you seem to be implying that Prince's current output can't be criticized or even just plain disliked without it being linked to some kind of racist thought, ie: folx are hyper critical of black musicians. I honestly have never seen that before. Prince is one of the richest musicians in the world. He can sell out a show anywhere in the world for multiple nights. He writes his own ticket. Some of that money in his pocket is MINE. I don't think his current output is all that interesting. That personal insite I am having about Prince's music doesn't have anything to do with racialized expectation. It just doesn't.

So the argument is that we expect more from Prince because he's black? Maybe. There are some good points raised. But I think Prince himself is also partly to blame for this 'over-expectation' by continuing to play the 'mythology' game - ie. not doing interviews, talking in riddles, and generally carrying on with a 'holier than thou' attitude. There's always been a wall between himself and his fanbase. Heck, there's even been a wall between himself and his bandmembers a lot of the time as well. He's not the kind of cat who after a show will be happy to stand beside you and have his picture taken. I'm not saying he should do these things, but I do think that it contributes to his 'other-worldly' persona.

When it comes down to it, Prince is a girly-lookin' light-skinned black man bought up in the black suburbs of the whitest city in America during a post-Martin Luthur King, post-'Summer of Love' environment. I'd say it's perfectly normal for him to feel 'other-worldly'. And if you're going to act 'other-worldly' (whether it's natural for him, or an act, or a bit of both), you're going to be treated 'other-worldly' by your fans. Karma y'all .
[Edited 2/20/10 15:00pm]

babynoz said:

I think Prince takes a less self consciously literate and intellectual approach to his songwriting. That is one way Prince and Bowie's work is different. It's a sound basis in that Bowie makes reference to books and art and theory and Prince hardly does.

You guys shouldn't nit pick me about this it's a pretty innocuous statement.

babynoz said:

I think Prince takes a less self consciously literate and intellectual approach to his songwriting. That is one way Prince and Bowie's work is different. It's a sound basis in that Bowie makes reference to books and art and theory and Prince hardly does.

You guys shouldn't nit pick me about this it's a pretty innocuous statement.

JudasLChrist said:

Who said anything about "racist thought"?...

This has less to do with racism and more to do with cultural perception....A perception that we are ALL guilty of...I have always been critical of Prince's work....But the difference between myself and others is I judge Prince on his own terms in what he's doing TODAY, not what he did when he was 25 years old...That's how Paul MacCartney's fans judge him....That's how Eric Clapton's fans judge him; That's how Joni Mitchell fans judge her...To me, this is how Prince should be judged...If the music sucks, we can call it what it is, not because his music is not the second coming of Sign O The Times, but because it sucks (New Power Soul...)

The bottom line is the Super Negro is expected to do otherworldly shit each and every time....And the reason? It's because HISTORICALLY music has been seen as something NATURAL that comes to black folks....And everyone from Duke Ellington to Prince has felt this sting...

JudasLChrist said:

well, yeah, that's obvious. And I said I agreed. But I do not think that because Prince chooses to express himself in this way does not mean he's not as smart as Bowie. I know plenty of people who make references to books, art, etc, and I wouldn't say they are intellectuals. But I know people who choose not to reference books, art, etc., and are as smart as whips. I guess my point is that, just because someone sings about literature or books or art doesn't mean that person is smarter than someone who doesn't sing about those things.
And I really don't think your original statement was all that innocuous. I mean, my head didn't spin around three times, but I definitely took notice.
[Edited 2/20/10 20:01pm]

Reading the recent rash of "Prince Has Lost It" threads got me thinking about the exceptional expectations placed on some music artists...After doing a little research I've come to a conclusion:

I believe we are dealing with the "Super Negro Theory"....

After having a long conversation with some Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, Joni Mitchell, and Bruce Springsteen fans (on various occasions), it's jarringly obvious that there are different standards placed on certain acts across racial lines...But before some of you start accusing me of playing some antiquated race card, hear me out...

This is not a simplistic case of black artists being judged unfairly when it comes to their white counterparts....If you ask me if Justin Timberlake deserves more acclaim, respect, and credit for his art than say an Usher, I would give a resounding YES...Because after all, as annoying as Timberlake can be, he actually proved himself given that he writes, produces, and at times plays on his own material (which is much more nuanced than Usher's work) and gives a more polished and complete live show when Usher still relies heavily on songwriters and producers to make him relevant and keep up with the Tre Songz of the world....

BUT, here's the RUB...THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND WHEN IT COMES TO EXPECTATIONS OF BLACK ARTISTS

Either we are expected to be "entertainers" who rely heavily on the machine or we are expected to be THE SUPER NEGRO...And the crazy part is, we are ALL (black, white, asian, latino ect, ect...) to blame...

So what is the SUPER NEGRO you ask? It's the self-contained artist who is deemed to have otherworldly musical powers...People don't view their art as coming from some intellectual, witty world view (I.E. Bob Dylan or Bowie).....They look at the SUPER NEGRO as being somehow mystical...a talent whose' art cannot be explained without hyperbole...Talent that comes naturally and not from good ol fashioned skill and hard work..

Through the years, there have been many notable SUPER NEGROS: Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, James Brown, Sun-Ra, Bob Marley, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Aretha Franklin, Michael Jackson, Prince, Rakim....These artists are looked at beyond being "good" musicians or vocalists/performers...In some cases the super negro has to live up to the hype of CHANGING the course of their respective musical genre, not just producing a good song...They can't just create a song to be enjoyed by the masses...They have to write, produce, arrange, play on, and sing on the material in order to be taken seriously as an artist...They can't be Madonna...

So how does the SUPER NEGRO THEORY fit into the recent Prince-Is-Finished threads?...

Just look at the way their EXCEPTIONAL white peers are treated...I recall when Stevie Wonder released Hotter Than July some critics complained that it was not as ambitious as Songs In The Key of Life...They balked at the nerve of Stevie Wonder just releasing an "R&B" album that didn't push the boundaries of music...How dare he!!!...They deemed it a "good' album, and that's as far as they would go.....Now let's flip to when Bruce Springsteen releases Born In The USA...There was no mention of the album being less artistic than Nebraska...In fact critics lauded Bruce for being able to expand his musical base and reach out to the masses with his dignity intact...You gotta love it, huh?

But the Super Negro Theory goes into overdrive once an artist gets past their prime...and here is where Prince fits in....

I will be the first to say that there have been lackluster and suck ass Prince albums (The Symbol album, Chaos & Disorder, New Power Soul, some of Musicology...ect...)...I have not always been happy with the man's work...But my expectations of him have always been reasonable...It's the same reasonable expectations that Bruce Springsteen fans have on the Boss...He can make a back-to-basics, roots-heavy album influnced by Woody Guthrie and no one (not his fans) would ever accuse him of leaning lazily on his influences...Neil Young can make a country-based album and his fans will judge it on the bases of it quality, not whether or not it strikes the same introspective chord as Harvest...

Yet, Prince (The Super Negro) has to keep pushing forward...If he's not re-inventing the musical wheel he is deemed as finished...If he makes music that recalls his own prominent influence (James Brown) he is looked at as being a JB cover band...Remember, the Super Negro cannot simply just make music just 'cause...He/she has to be conceptual, original at all times, and recall the levels of their greatest years.....

But the truth is, we are all accomplices here.......Instead of judging Stevie, Sly, Prince and the like on the same curve as their white counterparts we look at them as being more than human...We hold on dear to the whole "written, produced, performed, composed" tag for dear life, instead appreciating the fact that at the end of it all, these acts are just musicians who happened to get their chance to shine...

Prince's music today reminds us all that we get old...We struggle to re-live our prime years...And for some folks, they have come to terms with this, choosing to connect with him on very specific levels (such as his live show, which is still viewed by many to be pretty damn good) and not just the albums...

Others,however, depend on Prince to make GREAT, challenging music to help them cope with the fact that they are no longer in their own prime years...Thay are not the same person they used to be when Prince could do no wrong in the '80s...Prince's current Golden Years state is a brutal reminder that all of our prime years are behind us....This is a painful realization, ya'll....

In short, Prince fans who find the man unbearable should do their peace of mind a favor and just wait until he passes away and dies.....He's never going to give you what u want at this point...Or, you can pick and choose what you still dig about the man...Or you can go the route of a Bruce Springsteen fan and just enjoy the old man for what he is in 2010 and be thankful that you have had a chance to witness him when he was all that you ever wanted him to be...

Life is more easier that way, right?
[Edited 2/20/10 12:04pm]

murph said:

That's baloney though, cause people really dislike Paul McCartney's post Beatles output. This supernegro thing doesn't fly. No one likes Joni's 80s records, etc...