Anybody know what led to the change of direction from 1999 to PR? Did something happen on the tour?

I know the story of the song PR, Pete Seger etc. but that doesn't really explain it.
How do we move from guitar-driven songs like Bambi being the exception to the rule? From licks being semi-hidden like thy were on previous albums to being foregrounded?

And what about the change in production?

(Inspired by listening to alternative outtakes of Computer Blue...)

maybe - the concert at First Avenue, august 1983 was what happened,

a very raw and exciting moment in his career,

Purple Rain, the song, was created that night. Lots of other high lights too.

I don't know what to say.

thedance said:

I think the DVD is called "The King Of First Avenue",

or "First Avenue - Minnesota Dance Theater Benefit Show - August 3, 1983".

Lots of harder "rock" / funk songs were played,
- and lots of new stuff was premiered = *

Let's Go Crazy *
When U Were Mine
A Case Of U
Computer Blue *
Delirious
Electric Intercourse *
Automatic
I Would Die 4 U *
Baby I'm A Star *
Little Red Corvette
Purple Rain *
D.M.S.R.

please corect me if wrong..
[Edited 2/3/10 6:58am]
[Edited 2/3/10 7:02am]

thedance said:

But wouldn't this mark the when, rather than the why?

Prince was guitar heavy on his early tours also,only on
1999 Tour he expanded his act by prominent dancing and piano playing.
I think Purple Rain come as natural part of his evolution

Do your homework. "Bambi" wasn't the exception to any rule. "Why U Wanna Treat Me So Bad" is a guitar song as well, and he played it as a heavy rock song on tour. On all of his tours to that point, he'd been crazy on guitar. "Sister", "Ronnie Talk 2 Russia", "Jack U Off", and more have heavy guitar in them. He wasn't burying the guitar in anything. It was just good production on any particular song, whether the guitar was upfront or not. And don't dismiss songs like "1999" which have a guitar in them, but aren't necessarily rock songs. (Read: chicken scratch.)

Second - MONEY. Guitar pop is a more appealing to a broader audience. That's why the white kids started showing up when "Little Red Corvette", a rock song, hit the radio. Purple Rain was purposeful rock/pop, opposed to R&B and funk driven. If Prince did Purple Rain with 1999 as a soundtrack, it would have been popular, but quickly dismissed as another Krush Groove type fiasco.

It's BOB Seger, by the way. Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band. (Easy mistake, though.)

Pete Seger is a Rock N Roll Hall of Famer

Induction Year: 1996
Induction Category: Early Influence


Inductee: Pete Seeger (banjo, guitar, mandolin, vocals; born May 3, 1919)

Pete Seeger’s contribution to folk music, both in terms of its revival and survival, cannot be overstated. With the possible exception of Woody Guthrie, Seeger is the greatest influence on folk music of the last century. Born in New York City, he was the son of musicologist Charles Seeger. He took up the banjo in his teens and in 1938, at the age of 19, assisted noted folk archivist and field recorder Alan Lomax on his song-collecting trips through the American South. He soon began performing on banjo, guitar and vocals. In 1940, he formed a highly politicized folk trio, the Almanac Singers, which recorded union songs and antiwar anthems. They toured the country, performing at union halls for gas money, and recorded three albums. Woody Guthrie joined in 1941.

The Almanac Singers broke up with the advent of World War II. After a short stint in the army, Seeger formed the Weavers in 1948. They were a popular concert attraction who were at one point America’s favorite singing group. Their best-known numbers include such singalongs as “The Roving Kind,” “On Top of Old Smoky,” “Kisses Sweeter than Wine,” “Goodnight Irene” and “Wimoweh” (a.k.a. “The Lion Sleeps Tonight”). Their popularity cut across all boundaries. As American poet Carl Sandberg attested, “The Weavers are out of the grassroots of America. When I hear America singing, the Weavers are there.”

During the communist witch-hunts of the early Fifties, however, the Weavers were blacklisted, resulting in canceled concert dates and the loss of their recording contract with Decca Records. Under congressional subpoena to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee, Seeger asserted his First Amendment rights, scolding the committee, “I am not going to answer any questions as to my associations, my philosophical or my religious beliefs, or how I voted in any election or any of these private affairs. I think these are very improper questions for any American to be asked.” Unlike many entertainers and writers who careers were ruined in the McCarthy era, Seeger stood his ground and persevered – even though he was sent to jail, albeit briefly, for defending his beliefs.

After leaving the Weavers in 1959, Seeger was signed to Columbia Records. He recorded prolifically for the label. His popularity hit a new peak with We Shall Overcome, a live album recorded at Carnegie Hall that is estimated to have sold half a million copies. Seeger is responsible for such folk standards as “If I Had a Hammer” (originally written by Seeger and Lee Hays of the Weavers as “The Hammer Song”) and “Where Have All the Flowers Gone.” Seeger’s one dalliance with the pop charts came in 1964, when his version of folksinger Malvina Reynolds’ exercise in suburban mockery, “Little Boxes,” reached #70. Seeger’s songs were also popularized by others, principally Peter, Paul and Mary (“If I Had a Hammer,” “Where Have All the Flowers Gone”) and the Byrds (“Turn! Turn! Turn!,” “The Bells of Rhymney”).

Though he had objected to Dylan’s use of electric instruments at the Newport Folk Festival in July 1965, Seeger himself recorded with electric guitarist Danny Kalb (of the Blues Project) two years later on his album Waist Deep in the Big Muddy and Other Love Songs. Seeger, with his outspoken commitment to the peace movement, often wrote directly or metaphorically of the Vietnam war in the Sixties. A tireless champion of causes, Seeger has devoted himself to environmental issues, particularly the cleanup of his beloved Hudson River.

In Seeger’s capable hands, from the Forties to the present day, a concert isn’t regarded as a one-way proceeding but a group singalong. Indeed, Seeger’s gently assertive insistence that his audience sing out can be read as a larger metaphor for the necessary involvement of citizens to insure the healthy functioning of democracy in America. Seeger has recorded and performed tirelessly throughout his career, honoring the folksingers’ timeless commitment to spread the word and involve an audience. “My ability lies in being able to get a crowd to sing along with me,” he said in a 1971 interview. “When I get upon a stage, I look on my job as trying to tell a story. I use songs to illustrate my story and dialogue between songs to carry the story forward.”

TIMELINE
May 19, 1919: Pete Seeger was born.

1941: Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie assemble the Almanac Singers.

June 3, 1941: ‘Songs for John Doe,’ by the Almanac Singers, appears on the Almanac Records label. The trio—Pete Seeger, Lee Hays and Millard Lampell—is joined on record by Josh White and Same Gary. Producer John Hammond had a hand in organizing and releasing the session, which appears in three 78 rpm records.

1948: Pete Seeger forms the Weavers with Lee Hays, Fred Hellerman, and Ronnie Gilbert.

1950: The Weavers score a double-sided hit with “Tzena, Tzena, Tzena” (#2) b/w Lead Belly’s “Goodnight Irene” (#1 for 13 weeks).

May 26, 1950: The Weavers record Leadbelly’s “Goodnight, Irene,” which becomes a popular hit for them.

1950: Pete Seeger releases a 10-inch record called ‘Darling Corey,’ his first as a aolo artist and among the first releases on Moses Asch’s fledging Folkways Records.

December 24, 1955: Carnegie Hall concert featuring the Weavers seen as the beginning of the folk revival.

March 26, 1957: As a result of his testimony during the McCarthy-era Communist witch-hunts, Pete Seeger is indicted be a federal jury on ten counts of contempt of Congress. Four years later, he is convicted on all counts and sentences to ten concurrent one-year prison terms. In 1962, the convistions are overturned on appeal.

1959: Pete Seeger leaves the Weavers after they record a commercial for Lucky Strikes cigarettes over his objections.

1961: Pete Seeger is signed to Columbia Records by his friend and A&R man, John Hammond. His first album for the label is ‘Story Songs.’

June 8, 1963: Pete Seeger performs a historic concert at New York’s Carnegie Hall, which is recorded and released as ‘We Shall Overcome.’ It reaches #42 and remains on the album charts for 36 weeks.

July 26-28, 1963: The Newport Folk Fetival, featuring Bob Dylan, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez and Phil Ochs, is held in Newport, Rhode Island. It is a defining moment in the folk-protest movement.

January 11, 1964: “Little Boxes,” by Pete Seeger, enters Billboard’s Top 100. It is his one and only entry on the pop charts.

June 26, 1969: Pete Seeger launches the restored sloop ‘Clearwater,’ which serves as his podium for advancing environmental issues over the next several decades. Among his pet causes is the cleanup of the Hudson River, and to this end General Electric is hauled into court for contaminating the river with PCBs.

November 15, 1969: The antiwar “Marching on Washington” draws 500,000 protesters. Notable performers include Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie, Peter, Paul & Mary, and John Denver. Among the speakers are George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, Coretta Scott King and Dick Gregory.

1975: ‘Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie Together in Concert,’ a live collaboration between two generations of folk-music legends, is released. It will be followed by another, ‘Precious Friends,’ in 1982.

November 28-29, 1980
The Weavers reunite after two decades for a pair of shows at New York’s Carnegie Hall, scene of their greatest triumphs. The edited performance is released as ‘Together Again,’ on Vanguard Records.

1989: ‘The Complete Carnegie Hall Concert,’ an unabridged double-CD version of Pete Seeger’s historic ‘Carnegie Hall concert’ from 1963, is released.

December 4, 1994: Pete Seeger receives the Presidential Medal of the Arts, the nation’s highest artistic honor, at Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C.

January 17, 1996: Pete Seeger is inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame at the eleventh annual induction dinner. Arlo Guthrie and Harry Belafonte are his presenters.

February 16, 1997: Pete Seeger wins a Grammy Award for Best Traditional Folk Album of 1996 for his album ‘Pete,’ on the Living Music label.
Essential Songs

Where Have All the Flowers Gone
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is a Season)
If I Had a Hammer
We Shall Overcome
Down by the Riverside
Waste Deep in the Big Muddy
Last Train to Nuremburg
Little Boxes
What Did You Learn in School Today?
Guantanamera


Recommended Reading

How Can I Keep from Singing: Pete Seeger
David Dunaway. Cambridge, MA: Da Capo Press, 1990.

Where Have All the Flowers Gone?: A Musical Autobiography
Pete Seeger. New York: Sing Out! Books 1995.

The Incompleat Folksinger
Pete Seeger with Jo M. Schwartz (ed.). Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, 1992.

“Pete Seeger: American Dreamer – The Life of a Modern-Day Johnny Appleseed.”
Bruce Sylvester. Goldmine (April 11, 1997): 16-19+.




The Everly Brothers' Suits

djdaffy1227 said:

Seeger

At least I knew who he was I have no idea what he has to do with Prince though.
[Edited 2/3/10 9:14am]

The greater influence of Wendy & Lisa, perhaps?

billymeade said:

I'm not sure the original poster was saying Bob Seger was an influence for Prince to "suddenly" use guitar more. If the poster would look back objectively, they'd see Prince always used his guitar, a lot.

Plain and simple... cross-over potential. Purple Rain was blueprinted to be a radio-friendly album from the get go. This is why the absolutely filthy 1999 underground smash template was discarded and Prince didn't swear at all on Purple Rain.

Remember when the guitar solo for Jerk Out comes in, what lyric introduces it? "Cross over".

squirrelgrease said:

Yep.

billymeade said:

As well as Dez as far are the guitar driven live shows
I love the rock feel of the 1999 tours Dirty Mind

i think Wendy and Lisa influence is more about harmony ,weird chords.
rock influence was always there
he is a guitar player after all

thebanishedone said:

Agreed. W&L didn't make him pull out his guitar and play it. Hell, the first picture inside his first album had him sitting on a bed with a guitar. W&L was about harmonies, and adding a 4th or a 9th to a chord to give it that extra something. Prince is a good pop song writer, but W&L took a song, and turned it inside out, and that was their influence on him. I think the band was more of a rock band w/ people like Dez in it, despite the plethora of R&B stuff on those first five albums. Dez could scream on guitar back in those days, and Prince did his share as well. The Controversy Tour was a great example of those songs have a very heavy rock influence in a live setting.

ernestsewell said:

I agree,
I still don't care what anyone says, his music has always lacked after them, what it needs

I would still love to hear Balloon performed live with Prince & the girls with a more rock feel

OldFriends4Sale said:

I'm not sure it's totally fair to say he "lacked" after they left. If you think about it, Wendy was officially in the band only about 3 years, although she had been hanging around on tours and such at least since the infamous Rolling Stones gig (She was there). So the W&L team was only around for that time, probably once he started recorded songs for ATWIAD did he start giving them stuff to finish off. They had a few inputs on Purple Rain (strings on Purple Rain, chord structure on Purple Rain), but their bigger moments were after that.

Although Prince put out a lot of material during those years, we have to remember (while not dismissing W&L as a team) that he was successful before them, and remained successful after. Sure they helped add a different layer to his sound. It seems that it's more about missing them and their influence in his music. It's like missing the Linn drum machine, or missing Dez's raspy vocals on "Little Red Corvette". Prince certainly had success after The Revolution. He still had #1 hits, still had sold out tours, still had great albums, and great videos. He wasn't lacking when he did 1999, nor was he lacking on SOTT, an album he removed a lot of W&L influence on.

I think the difference w/ Prince's music now is that he seems to be more of a one-man band again. We never hear him writing a song with someone, or giving a song to someone to "work on", and "finish". We haven't in years, and when we have, it's still been him sending a song to W&L to put some parts on (even as recent as Planet Earth).

I think Prince has sometimes been more calculated in his career, then people here make him out to be.

I remember reading in a Prince biography that WB in 1981 or 1982 did do a survey among people in the music business about Princes 'cross-over potential'. The result: Prince can be a big star, if he emphasizes his rock-side more.

Prince was obviously going for a bigger mainstream crowd with Purple Rain, by putting more emphasis on the rock- and pop elements in his music. Not a bad thing IMO, because the album (and movie) shows he does it with quality, but there certainly was an element of 'calculation' in there.

To say its first of all a result of Wendy and Lisa's influence is a stretch IMO. The rock-elements were allready there in his music, he only emphasized them more on Purple Rain.
[Edited 2/4/10 11:32am]

ABSOLUTELY NO SOLICITING FOR BOOTLEGS.You want to discuss them? That's fine - but NO OFFERS TO COPY, NO REQUESTS TO COPY, NO "WHERE CAN I GET", etc. NO POSTING OF LINKS TO THESE SITES EITHER. Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this rule.

[Bootleggage request snip - luv4u]

Riverpoet31 said:

That being said, it makes one wonder then: was he trying to have that big cross over appeal with LotusFlow3r? He hyped it as some great guitar album, the one everyone has been wanting from him. Yet...seems to be rather dead just months after its release.

Prince wants to be thought of as a big star, but in reality, he's not willing to do the work.

ronnwinter said:

ABSOLUTELY NO SOLICITING FOR BOOTLEGS.You want to discuss them? That's fine - but NO OFFERS TO COPY, NO REQUESTS TO COPY, NO "WHERE CAN I GET", etc. NO POSTING OF LINKS TO THESE SITES EITHER. Please be aware that the moderators here strictly enforce this rule.

why do people tend to dismiss the guitar when its not the prominent figure in a song?

ernestsewell said:

Just for the record..I didnt realize it was a boot. Thought it may be a documentary. I know the rules seeing as Ive been a member a total of 11 years under 2 different profiles. Sorry again, but asking for a boot was not my intention.

Ernest is right,

I think it largely had to do with Prince writing and performing songs that could cross racial boundaries and achieve success with larger audiences. Writing more "rock"-oriented songs helped him reach that goal. White people.

I was so happy when P turned up the guitar on "P.R".

All the white metalheads that I knew (that were calling him homophobic names before) suddenly started blaring "P.R" from their boom boxes and asked me if he had any other "guitar heavy" songs.


Phony bastards.

Didn't one of Prince's tours around that time follow the same path across America as Bob Seger's? I think I read that in DMSR. I'm not saying that Seger had an effect to make Prince go guitar-crazy, but there was at least that little tidbit of Fink telling Prince to write a country song in the vein of Seger or something?

Prince was guitar crazy before Purple Rain .
1999 is the only tour in the early days
that was more about showmanship.
on early tours 1979-1982
Prince played guitar in almost every song.

After Purple Rain album he left the guitar
far back in the mix.