...before anyone complains, I'm not suggesting that it would have been better if Prince had died young, ...just read on... please...

Have been watching some Doug Stanhope on Youtube. He does this bit in response to a heckler, who shouts that he is riding on Bill Hicks's (Hallowed be thy name)(...oh, sweet irony... more of that later) tailcoat and, had Hicks still been alive, he would be better and more cutting that Stanhope (I think I've got the gist right... it's quite difficult to hear what the heckler is yelling... anyhoo...)

The crux of Stanhope's response is that you canot second guess/predict what people would be doing if they lived. You can never tell, he states, whether their best work was behind them. As part of his answer he says that you don't know the heights Hendrix could have climbed because he may well have been playing the Superbowl Half-time... and that got me thinking...

On getting the Superbowl gig, Prince 'The Artist' evaporated and Prince 'The Businessman' surfaced. Instead of championing new material he wheeled out Purple Rain again and, here comes the irony, a Hendrix cover of a cover. The corporate wheels coloured paisley turned and whilst we wowed at his phallic showmanship and his ability to hit high notes in the rain, he didn't seem real... or relevant... and yet he seemed so... consumate. Polished Prince was at work. His best years behind him... and yet.... and yet... this is a man who can compose The Rainbow Children... This is the man who can hit high notes even now on albums that are shoddy by comparison with his pre-death Prince... (ICPC, IIWTMIYL, ATMITW... and some tracks off Lotus Flower that I can't remember the names of...) It is all still there, it appears, but it's happy to ride off the grandstanding of a 'cheap' Superbowl performance.

Many would argue that Prince died, artistically, many years ago. Perhaps we are seeing Stanhope's fears for Hendrix lived large in Prince's continuing musicaly career. I can only hope that the diamonds that exist in each Prince release coagulate to form a complete and satisfying and worthy release in the not too distant future... and that when it comes, it is not smothered in the smoooze of the superbowls and fashion shows of the rounds he does as of the now.

man get off of your high-horse. There is only so much "greatness" in any human being. To expect prince to forever rise to greater and greater musical heights are the thoughts of someone living a delusional life.

Whatever prince produces he is never going to give u the high u got when he was all spanking brand new to u and everyone else. That is the nature of existence. That which is unfamilar becomes familar.

Anyone who can't here the artistiry in prince's most current work is selling prince short. Is it is best work? Probably not, but it shouldn't be expected to be.

tricky99 said:

Hits the nail on the hammer. Some expect Prince to suddenly make music that will open the heavens to the masses but he is a human being and I'm still loving his current music because I accept it for what it is. Music. If you feel the need to say that it is not up to your standards of what His music is supposed to sound like at this stage then let us hear what you have recorded. I have been with his artistry since his 1st album and I'm still here as are many who don't constantly complain that he doesn't do it like he used to. Which is a absurd notion because no one stays the same no matter how hard you try. You can't drink like you could when you were in your twenty's nor can you dance the same because there are new dances. He doesn't make the music that he made 30 years ago because he already did it 30 years ago. I think that Prince that Prince is the greatest to me still and basically that really that should matter to ME. Not to diss what you are saying but I don't think he has lost anything cause he is definitely a better musician and fantastic performer. Just wish that he would have performed close to where I live so I could see him.

1. You both missed the corporate Prince point: i.e. that he CAN still do, but chooses profit over risk;
2. I was pointing out a thought raised by someone else and musing on it.
3. If being long in the game is an excuse for shitness, sorry, blandness, sorry, mediocrity then why is Dylan still critically acclaimed? Read that for Leonard Cohen, Elvis Costello, Elton John, Eric Clapton, Mark Knopfler, Paul Weller, etc etc?
4. Where's the maturity in Prince's work? I can accept your argument that they may only be 'so much greatness', but when is he going to 'grow up' and start writing songs that reflect both his age, his life experiences and the age in which he has lived? ...ok, I'll give you a hit on this one...a touch up my own arse but still a pertinent question.
5. I don't have a five yet... but you have to have at least five points to an answer, don't you?

Of all of the above, I would say, you have leapt at my negativity and been angered by it, but you have not addressed the fundamental question (and seeming paradoc) of Prince's inability to disassociate his career from fiscal gain. His legacy is consistently marred by money grabbing... the Superbowl performance being one of a myriad of instances (and merely reflecting the choice of situation superficially placed on him by a comedian commenting on another erstwhile hero). Prince could have achieve so much more in his career with integrity... that he has not is solely to be laid at his own feet.

BoySimon said:

Isn't monetary gain what we all are trying to get anyway? I know it is why I go to work. Prince just happens to be in a field where he can make lots more of it than I can at this point. And I wasn't angered by what you said cause you have the right to your opinion which is why I continued to say to ME.Whereas you say that the music doesn't reach to his age level then I am assuming that you are meaning the MPLSound disc which is a party disc in my opinion and not supposed to bring serious issues to the table although it can make you think on certain songs about relationships and such. Tell me that you don't hear any maturation on Here but the longing that is heard for his want for love.And Dylan may be critically acclaimed but I don't hear his music on the radio stations that I listen to.So I feel he is doing what he wants and just enjoying his life making music and if you personally don't like it well that is on you if you are still here.Oops late for work. peace!!!

Lock this stupid thread plz

Explain how songs like "Here", "better with time", "colonized mind" and "dreamer" are not mature songs.

I have no idea what prince financial situation is and neither do u. So how much he is or is not making is completely immaterial.

"Isn't monetary gain what we all are trying to get anyway? I know it is why I go to work. Prince just happens to be in a field where he can make lots more of it than I can at this point."

Prince isn't interested in No.1s... he don't care about Billboard... don't you listen? All he cares about is real music by real musicians...

Your mention of the MPLSound album is interesting because it was a mature sound... in as much as it reflected Prince's earlier releases but it was something of a treadwater album lyrically. Prince's last 'mature' song? Cinnamon Girl, possibly... even the IIWTMIYL or WDYWMTDG songs from Musicology... it in itself a crass appeal to youth whilst betraying or, in a more favourable reading of the song, a naive reading of the hip hop movement... hopelessly associating it with a Sly reference here and there - horribly corrupt by the Larry Graham effect.

Whoah, now hang on... 'stupid thread' in what way? A person watches and interprets a piece of performance that, as an incidental, makes reference to a musician that person appreciates. That person shares their thoughts on the reference and, I assume, because they shed a less than flattering light on the object their thoughts are considered stupid. Is that what you mean? I thought this a relevant and less than contentious premise... Prince is not what he was; he grabs money but has the potential to earn money by releasing music that would see him appreciated and 'purchased' at a level more commensurate with his back-catalogue and yet this is considered 'stupid'?

Should I start a thread on whether the she that is always in his hair is actually in his hair or not? Should all threads deal with ideas such as how much paisley is too paisley? Or whether Paisley The Cat was actually paisley? Or whether when Prince said he was actually scared of bats on the guise of Christopher Tracy that he was actually sared of bats as himself, and the only reason he did the Batman soundtrack was as a cathartic experience for himself?

U didn't address my statements at all. U will be better off when u realize that prince is not the messiah

A. Prince's Superbowl halftime show was about as "artistic" as one can afford to be for that audience/timeslot, etc. It was also about as "real" as one can be for that gig. The halftime show IS NOT the time to wheel out new material or play the "artist" card. It is a mass market audience, not a club gig. Prince is smart. He was fresh and commercial at the same time. He got nothing but good talk afterwards. A common phrase heard the next day were, "possibly the best half time show ever." Question: Who the hell seems relevant at the Superbowl halftime show? That is THE gig to be a consumate, commercial showman.




B. Come on. PRINCE HAS ALWAYS STRADDLED THE LINE BETWEEN ARTISTIC AND COMMERCIAL.
This is the same Prince who did the Batman soundtrack.
This is the same Prince who did an MTV contest in Sheridan Wyoming to promote Under the Cherry Moon.
This is the same who cozied up to Oprah to promote Emancipation.
I can think of dozens of other examples of Prince being commerical. If, to you, that means he "died artistically", I would argue that happened in the 80's at least.
[Edited 12/15/09 8:03am]

BoySimon said:

What do you mean by the Larry Graham effect? I see alot of people talking about the hiphop effect but I don't really see or feel any hip hop to me. Maybe the current sound that is played on the radio with the overuse of the voice box or whatever that effect is called but Prince is probably just doing that to have fun with that but he has used that sort of thing for a number of years. Like Camille.

BoySimon said:

You´´re pretty funny.

On a more serious note though....sure it does sound a bit morbid what you´re saying but, to be honest, a friend of mine said the very same things you wrote here even years before the name change era, around 1991 or so, so you´re not the only one. It´s a good idea for a thread, especially for the long time fans but it does sound very morbid and in bad taste. Then again, where else if not here on a fansite could you discuss such thoughts, right?

I agree with what jimmyrogertodd said though, we should all be glad that Prince is still around,making good music.

He still makes great music every now and then, he still is a stellar live performer, and he still looks amazingly young and healthy, and things are still good....better than seeing him as some washed up has been who looks weird and is on coke all the time, like some other celebs of his status. He´s still doing well , IMO,but we all know that there´s still some of that creativity and some of that stuff inside him that made us listen to his music in the first place.
Unfortunately, he no longer seems to make use of those sources, that kind of inspiration and energy seems to be tamed and under control these days.

Good thread, but a bit morbid.

jimmyrogertodd said:

Good points. Not only that...but Prince has ALWAYS been a reflection of the music that came before him and of current music. And if current music uses certain gimmicks or has a certain style, or is simply a bit lame, then this of course will also reflect in Prince´s output and maybe his overall work ethic or his creativity.
Back in the 80s, his glory days as some say, most of his music was an amalgam, a reflection of what came before him (Jimi, Sly, James Brown) and what was going on at that time (New Wave,New Romantics, Synth Pop, Funk, Rock , early electronic music). So, all in all, his modus operandi has not changed that much in that respect, really. It´s a reflection of today´s music and it seems he no longer has any challengers out there. The only people who could maybe be some sort of threat or challenge, artistically, are either his devout followers or disciples, or are on drugs....

I'm sorry but how much do you really expect from Prince? Has he not done enough for you already? When it comes to art, there is a cycle. The first years are of experimentation and defining and perfecting your style & technique. Then you have the glory years where your output is at it's peak & then it's a downhill turn to try & not repeat yourself or even lose interest altogether. Who wouldn't pass up an oppertunity to play the half-time show at Superbowl anyway? He wasn't performing for his regular audience so he obviously had to rely on songs that EVERYONE knows & can sing along to in that situation. It's a miricle in itself that Prince is still releasing quality music considering the amount of songs he has written so far, whether you like it or not you can't deny it's better than most of the stuff on the "charts" right now, nobody else can do what he does & for that you should be greatful for every time he presses the "record" button, because music is better than no music, right?

Exactly. A lot of people overlook the fact that Prince didn't invent the use of a synth in the early 80's...he just did it his own way. I would argue that current trends have always been incorporated into Prince's sound through.
[Edited 12/15/09 11:56am]

Familiarity breeds contempt. Never more true when it comes to Prince.

tricky99 said:

Yes just because U were spanking your girlfriends at that time in your life does not mean Prince was not still alive at the "Superbowl," And, Always watering "Purple Rain," the. "youth," of today will know the seed of Prince's career. (deliberately goofy for those of U that think I've come from the deep end.)

BoySimon said:

BoySimon...Now I see more cleary where U are coming from...I can believe that a sliver of Prince's life could appear that way, however this is a life that Prince is living and not us.

It's alright that U appreciate Prince's earlier music and that U believe Prince is selfish enough to decorate his life with the experiences that money buys. Many of us would enjoy that lifestyle and want to maintain it.

The truth is: "Purple Rain," is a classic in music. This album can introduce new listeners and they can go on a "Prince," music exploration. Getting to know Prince's music is time consuming. Those of us that love Prince now never stopped loving the music as it came out. So we hear a song like, "Colonized Mind," or "4ever," and just love the idea of giving Prince 12 bux for a cd to listen to. If it bought him some hot bathtubs and fuxxy couches to make-love on more power to him. Us poor folk have to fuck on pavement.

Those sort of questions are always being asked. People contemplate if Orson Welles peaked with Citizen Kane or if Marlon Brando lost his mojo after the 50's. In music, even with Elvis, people talked about how he lost his edge after going to the army. The fact of the matter is, people change, times change and thus, their art changes.

Does this mean that I'd rather an artist die or retire to prevent them from "tarnishing" their legacy (not that this was suggested). I want to hear it all. It's so subjective. One man's trash is truly another man's treasure. Think of everything we'd have missed out on if Prince disappeared into obscurity in '88 or '96 or whenever most people think he lost it.

Besides, in a case like Hendrix, I'd rather he lived and produced one failure after the next. That's better than wondering "what if" and becoming sick when you think of what he may have created.

And a big thank you for the coversation this thread started... I've not been online for a bit...pressures of work... etc... but was pleased to see how this had panned out.

What shall we talk about now?

If Prince builds it....everybody on here will come.

i like xpertlova's response, because prince's musical journey is not unlike most artistic experience and just because he's changed or lost a certain degree of intensity is no reason to not want to experience it with him. I like growing older with my favorite artist, because a lot of my peers who championed other artist dont have the benefit of watching them evolve-regardless of whether I agree (with the course) or not. A lot of my peers can only wait for their favorite artist to surface via some VH1 enterprise like "one hit wonders" or some reality show that destroy's not only personal integrity but the legacy of the music. So prince has lost his fastball and prefers to get his money in high exposure appearances like the Super Bowl. I cant tell you how many people (non prince fans) saw that and called me because they were humbled by the mans guitar prowess-only we who say we "love" him focus on what the setlist was and how it is a sign that he must be put down to spare "US" (cus that's who this is really about) the shame.It's like love, when i hear about that 26 year old football player who lost his own life in a domestic dispute i remember how volitile my relationships were in my early 20's. In my 40's i know i dont ever want to "love" like that again, i aint jumping off a truck for anybody-just like prince wont strut around naked, live in a studio or use profanity for us. And i get it, Prince dont have to create another masterpiece ever again, he's let go and he is enjoying his life more than ever before-and if you "love"him you'll let go as well.

I sort of agree and disagree at the same time. I find it hard to reconcile the relevant Prince to the money-grabbing Prince to the Prince who still sings about sex like he's 18, but is, in actual fact, a man who used a Barry Manilow riff on his last album..i.e. old.

There are so many artists/performers of Prince's age that both sell and maintain an artistic integrity that Prince seems to only aspire to... unless, and oh my god, I do hope this isn't the case,... unless Prince sees himself as a morphed Vandross/Robinson/Gaye/Green homogenous lump, who will be solely responsible for sex in the next century... oh my... I hope not.

There is stuff to admire on Lotus Flower... but it's not shaking the ground... all I mean to say, as I said in my thread opener... perhaps he's past it, and that there's only ever as gap in which the 'it' he had enabled him to write great songs.

True, but has he not proven to be mercurial and at times hipocritical?, it's all consistant with his personality-the two sided gemini. I think he has moments of integrity and moments of shameless pandering and money grubbing, i'm just happy that he hasnt become so irrelevant that i have to see him sharing a room with Ron Jeremy on some crappy show.