Mindflux said:

Maybe not believe it doesn't exist but believe it is minimal. In fact I would say that cases of racism where I live are very few in number due to the number of opportunities. That does not mean that the people are not racist though. Nor does it say that they are.

I'm just sorry that so many of you are experiencing it to such a degree. I can empathise a little as we have a ginger sibling within our family so we know how intolerance can hurt. Not as bad as the embarrassment from having a ginger in the family mind you.

iloveannie said:

I suppose "ginger" is a term used for an non-white individual where you come from? I'd like to know what you mean by that? As one who has never heard of that term used regarding an individual, maybe you can educate me on that.

2elijah said:

iloveannie is actually just referring to a person with ginger hair which, for some reason, does attract scatological attention!

& black only when he thinks it might pay off

I love the song, but prince as an angry black man - come on!

Rightly said:

it's sad but true

Uhm, he says "peanut butter logic". WTF.
How stupid is that?

The lyrics are waaaaay dumb. Just rote ganda he be propping our way.

LaAmi said:

I'm just wondering how anyone here could know personally that about him, and none of us know him?

So in other words, a black artist who sings about a social ill, means he/she has to be angry? That doesn't make sense. If you look back at some of his songs, which can't even be put into one genre, he's had many songs pointing out historical, social and political ills;moreso political before he became a JW.
i.e. Empty room/Family Name/Avalanche/some songs off the Rainbow Children, etc. just to name a few.



When the Gil Scott Heron, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Bono from U2 sang about specific social and world ills, that means they're angry? In my opinion, they're just concerned about specific realities and use their art of music to raise awareness;that's basically it.
[Edited 12/24/09 16:20pm]

2elijah said:

Exactly! I don't see what the big deal is.

LaAmi said:

I'm just wondering how anyone here could possibly know that about him, seeing how none of us know him personally?

So in other words, a black artist who sings about a social ill, means he/she has to be angry? That doesn't make sense. If you look back at some of his songs, he's had many songs pointing out historical, social, religous and political issues. Would you say one would have to assume he was an angry black man to sing about such issues? I should think one shouldn't be just to raise awareness of specific societal issues. I don't see his writing of "Dreamer" any different than when he wrote, Empty room/Family Name/Avalanche/some songs off the Rainbow Children, etc. just to name a few.

When the Gil Scott Heron, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Bono from U2 sang about specific social and world ills, that means they're angry? In my opinion, seems those artists were/are just concerned about specific social/political/economic realities and use their art of music to raise awareness about it. That's basically it.
[Edited 12/24/09 16:37pm]

2elijah said:

Could not have said that better! Thank you!

hollywooddove said:

I think the problem is, many like to mock Mr. Gregory's comments as off-the-wall especially when it comes to dealing with race issues in America. They just don't want to believe it is true. The best thing to do, is research some of what he is saying. It's not that difficult. It is easy to mock when the evidence is not before you.

Many refuse to believe racial profiling exists, despite written complaints (police reports), and actual video showing the discrimination that takes place with some motorists, when being stopped and some beaten by cops. Many experienc it in many different ways, i.e. while shopping, etc. These are real-life situations often dismissed by those in denial. It's bad enough many refuse to discuss America's history of enslavement, so it is no surprise to me that many will find all kinds of reasons to use reverse racism, denial or other ways to not face the reality that these societal issues exists. Denial of it brings comfort and ease to the spirit. Not having to deal with its existence is easier. Those that deal with it in individual ways, know of it. If it's not happening to you, it is quick to dismiss it, but the point is, it happens on a large scale in this country, but the actions are too often dismissed by those who if they don't see it, experience it, then it doesn't exist. I don't know of any history in America where blacks put chains on white people, enslaved them, used them to gain profit, as a welfare check and insurance coverage. It's all documented history that cannot be denied, and many descendants of those who were enslaved, pass you by in the street everday.

2elijah said:

I didn't mock him, I said he is extremely charsimatic... and btw... come on. Saying that Jet vapor is chemical dump is no credit to his cause. I never said racial profiling didn't exist... I plainly said that OMG it does.
It exist on both sides. If you can't admit that, then YOU are the one in denial. Read your history and you will find that there were white slaves in the same period of the united states as well as black, and there were black slave owners. I won't mention the African tribes that sold their black brothers and sisters into slavery to begin with.
But it is easy to blame one race on all the problems. That would be white people. But oh, that's not racial profiling is it?

There is problematic issues on both sides.

hollywooddove said:

I'm not forcing you to agree with me regarding my opinion, and we could go back and forth on this all day, so it seems we will just have to agree to disagree, but for now, I will respond to your post by saying a few things: Using reverse racism does not justify the acts of the past nor will it ever erase it. America's historical wrongs are embedded in the ground you walk on. Furthermore, I know my history, so no need to tell me to research something I already know about.

I don't recall Blacks in the U.S. ever enslaving whites in America, putting them in chains, holding them against their will and slaveholders forcing themselves on young, underraged females and women, for their sexual pleasures, anytime they wanted to. I don't recall Blacks chaining white people aboard ships, packed like sardines and taking them across the oceans to work as slaves in America and the Caribbean. Fact is, America committed crimes in the past that they became wealthy off of. That's something that can never be erased from its history.

Oh and as far as the Africans involved in slave trade. Those that were involved in the slave trade, had no idea the Africans they traded to the Europeans would be branded as property, welfare checks and insurance policies, collateral and inheritance in wills, for those that enslaved them, when they sold some Africans to them. When there were tribal disagreements between African ethnic groups in Africa, it was not uncommon for Africans to hold captives from other African, ethnic groups, but they were not mistreated like the Africans that went across the waters to America and the Caribbean. Native ethnic groups did the same when there were tribal disagreements or internal wars between them.
that still does not justify any of America's wrongs because of that. Nor will As far as whites being slaves, that was something their own people did to them, and forced many Irish slaves aboard ships to work on plantations in Barbados, and other parts of the Caribbean. You should do a bit more research before you try to slap me in the face with information about my history. I'm well aware of mine.

It seems to me that you and many others who seem to immediately accuse Prince of being angry and "playing victim" based on some of the lyrics you heard in "Dreamer", may have immediately thought when he mentioned the term "plantation" in the first line of the song, that it was referencing America's history of black enslavement. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but have you even thought about looking further into the lyrics, in the first line of "Dreamer", and think that it could possibly be a reference to American citizens, being slaves to the power structure of America, which could be why he referred the U.S. as a plantation? I won't deny that the topic of race or racial profiling was not a hint in the song, but you can't tell an artist not to sing about social ills, artists have been doing that for years. You can choose to like a song or not, as no one puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to like or accept what any artist sings about. It's individual choice.

The rest of the song speaks for itself. As far as any conspiracies mentioned in the song, that's up to the listener. It is not uncommon that African-Americans have been used as guinea pigs in the past, like during the Tuskegee experiment. If someone brings up a so-called conspiracy, all you have to do is the research to see if there is any evidence of such conspiracy, regardless of how "silly" you may think it to be. I don't think because an artist sings about social/historical/economic or even political situations or suggested conspiracies, that he/she is an "angry artist". In my opinion, many artists sing about those issues, as a way of raising awareness on specific situations in society. No one forces any of us to accept it, it's all up to the consumer or fans of an artist to make that decision on their own.

Anyway, like I said, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
[Edited 12/24/09 22:50pm]

2elijah said:

Yes we will have to disagree on many points, and it is not reverse racism, it is racsim on both sides.

Yes there were white slaves, not many, and there were black slave owners.

Yes there were Africans that sold their own into slavery for profit, and it was petty profit... tobacco and brandy.

And the most offense I find in the entire debate, is that I have white ancestors who died in a war to free the slaves, but no white man will ever get credit for that.

I am saying that Prince never sounds as authentic when plays the victim in race issues, but when he sings about sex and religion, he sounds way more at home.

Any who, I wish you a Merry Christmas. God Bless.

hollywooddove said:

Love the way you use reverse racism to sugarcoat America's actions of white slave owners in America, profiting from over 300 years of black enslavement and post-slavery actions, but it's all good, as that won't be the first time someone tried to water down the horrific details that took place in this country back then, and devalue the lives of blacks who were enslaved. No worry, no one's blaming present-day whites for the actions of those who took part in such evil actions. You're also wrong about saying that those non-blacks who helped to hide black slaves and helped them get away from their white slave owners will never be given credit. Matter of fact, I applaud them. The thing is, they will always be recognized in spirit for their compassion, which you were very quick to recognize...without hesitation, moreso than you were with accepting the evil and horrific atrocities against black Africans and African-Americans, held in captivity by white slave owners and classified by whites back then, as "property" and "non-humans".

Too often, I find, when the topic of "enslaved Africans and African-Americans" in America is brought up, there's often disrespect, dismissal, denial and devaluation of their suffrage. Those of us who dare to speak of it, are accused of "playing victim" or called "angry black men or women". I wonder if the same is send in history classes across America when the topic is brought up. You cannot teach American history without discussing it's part in the slave trade. That is how this country became wealthy and built by those in enslavement. America became rich off of "human trafficking". That's a fact and an ugly truth that is "uncomfortable" for many to digest because, when the topic is brought up, many develop "self-imposed" guilt, and blame that feeling on those that dare to discuss America's hand in the slave trade. We could go on forever about this topic, and agree on some things, while disagreeing on another part of it.

Anyway, getting back to the track "Dreamer". I absolutely love it and have no issue with the song at all. The song apparently is thought-provoking enough to spark conversations regarding the lyrics, despite some fans uneasy feelings of uncomfortable truths mentioned in the song. I wish Prince would sing more songs like that to raise awareness of the many existing, societal ills. I also hope he wins the grammy for the category it is in. If he doesn't, well "Dreamer" will still be a track remembered for it's thought-provoking lyrics.

Thanks for the Christmas wishes, and you can bet I'm God blessed. Have a great holiday, despite any disagreements on the topic. Peace!
[Edited 12/25/09 7:59am]

2elijah said:

Thank you.

Instead on confronting the problem and moving on some want to dismiss the whole episode as mental illness.

The same attitude pops up when people are told of the real truths behind other historical events and like Prince said "another conspiracy."

It makes Jack Nicholson's charcter in A Few Good Men look very real when he said ,"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH !"

Thus the peanut butter logic that you are told in AmeriKa.

Personally I find this type of lyric far too America-centric to hold much in common with my own life. I'm not sure how the other non-Americans on this forum feel about this? These big race issues don't really effect us here in Hereford, England.

iloveannie said:

true very US centric...not much in common in the Netherlands...in here we discrimate not so much on color but more on basis of religion...(ur an Islamist so ur a terrorist logic does well here unfortunately)...

also the Peanutbutter logic sentence really doesn't do the song good...why he had to put in this kind of line..it spoils an otherwise great song and not 2 bad lyrics....

and in some cases welsh and scottish, families have been treated/are being treated.

oooooh, radical!

BoySimon said:

And how about the poor old British!? We can't even say anything now without being classed as racist or bigoted. Our politicians and do-gooders have us bending over backwards to accommodate others whereas we can't even fly the flag or have Christian symbols displayed for fear of upsetting those with different views! When in bloody Rome these people should do as the Romans do! If they don't like it they should bloody well eff off. Integrate or suffer the consequences, which unfortunately are fear and hatred.

Morning rant over and done with.

Hmmm...I'm sure that's how some of the Natives felt when the British invaded their land in America and the Caribbean. It seems some people today tend to develop a form of amnesia, and not learn a thing from the horrific, historical events many of their own ancestors took part in, only to embrace the same mindset and attitudes their ancestors had when they showed up on the shores of a land that didn't belong to them. Those same invaders, captured and forced many of the natives off their own land, and also took measures to force many of the natives they captured, to denounce their own culture and accept those of the invaders and if they didn't...then it was either assimilate or suffer the "consequences". Yeah.... amnesia.

You know, life can take some strange twists, as you never know when a natural disaster may force you from your homeland someday, where you have to look towards the compassion of others to embrace and accept you into their homeland.

Afternoon rant over, not sure done with.
[Edited 1/1/10 14:07pm]

2elijah said:

I have no guilt for the actions of others. To feel such is illogical and misplaced.

As for natural disasters forcing most of the UKs immigrants to arrive here? Poland under water now is it? Funny, I thought it was Britain's generous benefit and health care system.

iloveannie said:

To not feel anything at all for what the British did to so many in the past, is illogical, mean and cold-hearted. Britain extending its generous benefits and healthcare system to others (immigrants) pretty much makes up for wrongs of the past. Don't worry you'll be fine.
[Edited 1/5/10 7:24am]

2elijah said:

Well I see we don't agree on this subject. Yes, it's very nice to stand there and be compassionate about these things: probably the right way in fact, but that doesn't stop the fact that most of the UK's immigration is not made up of people fleeing a collapsed country. They are coming here as our benefits system is open to all and lower paid work is available.

The reasons for these are, one, the English government has not taken control of the system and it is being exploited wholly to the detriment of its future and, two, the unemployment/housing/child benefits available to UK residents are also not controlled correctly resulting in a large number of its society not needing or being required to work as money and housing is available thus resulting in the abundance of low-paid employment with which the immigration sector is finding advantageous.

Charity begins at home and unfortunately our home requires a cultural shift with regards its benefit system. I, for one, have not forgotten those who came before me that created this system that cares for its populace and I am constantly dismayed to see its abuse.

And please don't forget that when Britain "extends its generous benefits" a part of that pot has been paid for by myself, my wife, my daughter, my parents, my grandparents, my wife's parents, my whole family in fact. It was never intended to sustain so many and its downfall will be that it is in fact trying to do so.

And how then will we help? Just remember 2elijah that the first creatures to leave a sinking ship aren't the crew.

2elijah said:

Well I see we don't agree on this subject. Yes, it's very nice to stand there and be compassionate about these things: probably the right way in fact, but that doesn't stop the fact that most of the UK's immigration is not made up of people fleeing a collapsed country. They are coming here as our benefits system is open to all and lower paid work is available.

The reasons for these are, one, the English government has not taken control of the system and it is being exploited wholly to the detriment of its future and, two, the unemployment/housing/child benefits available to UK residents are also not controlled correctly resulting in a large number of its society not needing or being required to work as money and housing is available thus resulting in the abundance of low-paid employment with which the immigration sector is finding advantageous.

Charity begins at home and unfortunately our home requires a cultural shift with regards its benefit system. I, for one, have not forgotten those who came before me that created this system that cares for its populace and I am constantly dismayed to see its abuse.

And please don't forget that when Britain "extends its generous benefits" a part of that pot has been paid for by myself, my wife, my daughter, my parents, my grandparents, my wife's parents, my whole family in fact. It was never intended to sustain so many and its downfall will be that it is in fact trying to do so.

And how then will we help? Just remember 2elijah that the first creatures to leave a sinking ship aren't the crew.