Mars23 said:

Good luck with that! When you try to be respectful, some people still get out of hand wit it.

daPrettyman said:

Oh fuck off you toothy git.

ernestsewell said:

BTW, U weren't who my comment was aimed toward.

He's jealous alright! Of whom or what is the question. Back in the day it could be argued that it was the bootleggers but with the advent of the internet that all changed and it changed in Prince's favor, however, he wasted the opportunity.

Prince was one of the first mainstream superstars to gravitate to the internet bringing his legions of fans along with him. His online presence should have grown with the internet but it did not because of Prince, himself. Had he actually taken the internet seriously and invested in the development of his online presence, Prince could very easily have had the most visited and influential sites on the net.

Instead, he got jealous because other sites were offering what he wasn't. He tried to squash that by suing and making a bunch of fan sites give up their sites for the purpose of forcing fans to his main site. Yet he tried to control everything and everyone on his main site. That lasted a hot second and the end result was the failure of his named and renamed sites and the first round of alienating his fan base.

HQ picked up the mantle and offered on their site what the fans wanted...videos! When you looked up Prince during the rise of "search engines" the first site that came up was Prince.org. Prince came back online with the NPGMC 2003 edition and even with his Musicology "comeback" that didn't help him, internet wise because there was still so much that could have been there that just wasn't. He got jealous again and forced HQ to make all kinds of adjustments to how they showed videos and when even that wasn't enough he made them take them down altogether.

That little feat only made places like TRH thrive because regardless to what Prince thinks...most of his fans want to see and hear for ourselves the concerts that we've talked about for so long over the internet. We know there's footage and audio out there and if he won't provide it, we know there's somebody that will.

Then came YouTube, a historical archive of all things recorded from the great to the mundane and Prince wanted no parts of it...well then, anyway! There began the second round of alienating his fans.

What pisses me off is Prince could very easily get my money! I have members of my family that will testify in a court of law that I've spent more money on Prince than I would ever dream of giving them. Sad...perhaps but true as hell, none the less. The reason being was I always thought Prince had the talent and intellectual foresight to back up any screwball endeavor he had, all he needed was...the people...US...his fans...to believe in him and support him financially. During the entire decade of the '80's, he proved that to me without a doubt. In the '90's I believed that even more because I fell for his "fight the power" rhetoric...hook, line and sinker.


When he got "free" and became "the power" that we had to stand up against is when the bottom fell out for me.

I still hold because somewhere inside of me, there is a spark of hope that knows Prince could make it right again, if he wanted to. What saddens me to no end, is the thought that he just really doesn't want to because he really doesn't give a fuck! It's that thought, right there, that transformed me into HatrinaHaterwitz. T

The only person on the face of this earth that could have made me hate on Prince, was Prince himself and he's done that! The only person on the face of this earth that can fix that, is Prince himself! Yet, I don't think he cares or wants to and that pisses me off even more so. It really does!

daPrettyman said:

Well I know it can't be me because I haven't even been mad yet!

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

Like I said in the speculation of orgers thread, don't force my hand cuz I aint got control of it!

WONDERFULLY PUT! X INFINITY

Yup, everything you said is true. If Prince built on what the NPGMC became, he would be unstoppable. Instead all you get from him is tantrums at 50 godamn 1. Grow the hell up already, damn!

daPrettyman said:

I know. I was totes playing.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

U never make me mad.

LOL! Damn BartVanHemelen! Y r u going at me like this! LOL! What I do?! I didn't know I was sounding like him and that pissed u off! My fault, I was just understand his view 2 some degree. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan. I understand where u r going with this.

I look at both views and I understand both views (Prince and the fans). I just wish Prince find a way 2 build a better relationship with his fans than what he have now. I think he should chill and celebrate his his music past and present. I think he shouldn't have rebelled against his fans. He should stop doing that. He shouldn't have rebelled against those related/associated artists like The Time, Jill Jones, Wendy and Lisa, and The Family. Who should profit from the musical output of The Time? I think The Time should along with Prince. One of the things that I like about The Time's last album was the fact that it was less Jamie Starr on there. Those guys have grown up in2 their own artist. We all know how much of a key player Prince was 2 The Time. Let them guys take it from there. The same with The Family, they should not have 2 change their name bcuz of his foolishness. I thought that was some bullshit. For the most part all of those early Prince associated artist have grown bcame their own. Prince should respect that but, also remember the good of those collaborations with people like Morris Day, Wendy and Lisa, Jill Jones, Dez Dickerson, etc. I think he should collaborate with those people again but, let them hold their own and respect it. Yes, Prince was the guy behind acts like The Time, Vanity 6, and The Family. We know that. At the same time, it's not 1982, 1984, or 1986. He should be supporting those associated artists and their projects. I say all of this about his former associates bcuz it seems like he's been treating them the same as his fans and that's crazy.

He's also jealous of itunes, youtube and social media sites. Instead of incorporating official verified twitter, facebook and youtube outlets he tries to compete with them and his output is inferior. He needs to reach across the table to WB, snag the best bootlegger, a youtube guy, a social media specialist , an Apple/WB merger and get it poppin. Instead theres another flash based website that offers jack shit and gives the faithful prince fan the feeling they've been fleeced-hell anyone of us with avatars alone can put up a zazzle storefront and make better t-shirts.

dreamshaman32 said:

Prince is not trying to compete with any of these big entities. He simply wants to get paid for having his music played or posted on these sites. It's more about the copyright and publishing of his material he wants compensation for.

BartVanHemelen said:

Good point, I just feel I gotta challenge others who think this way... just hate to perpetuate ignorance.

BartVanHemelen said:

Once again Bart you nailed it, I hope you get to meet Prince one day to say these things. That crystal ball fiasco to this day, I am still shaking my head. Calling customer service, wrong billing, no shipping.... and then I get it and like you said edited versions etc.

Shame, so many good models for him to choose.. Live Phish, Tori Amos, Ani Difranco, etc....

daPrettyman said:

Like many religious people, he is too busy standing on the side of the road arguing all the rules. He needs to let go of his obsessive micromanagement and get about the business of doing his ART. The money will follow if he just got off his greedy ass and made it happen naturally.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

None of us know him persoanlly. However speaking from a outside point of view I dont really think he NEEDS money...it's not his passion..however recently he just turned me way of with the website. Then he continues to play mind games with the consumers and it really hurts as a fan. He is a strong Gemini with a strong personality. he is always going to do things his way from what I have learned about him. Love him. Loved the last album, but none of his actions make me want to stick around.

paisleypark4 said:

That gemini bullshit is just that.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I would agree with you if Prince was selling a million albums every time, but that's not the case now. We all seem to forget that Prince does not work for anyone anymore. Nor does he have anyone or anything to protect his copyright but himself (ie he doesn't have a record company saying "you can or cannot" do something). If he doesn't say no, who will?

I'm not siding with P, but I do get his point. He is all about his paycheck. Just like all of us here. If someone was short-changing your paycheck, you'd fight for it also.

daPrettyman said:

I'm getting really fed up with this BS. PROTECT WHAT FROM WHAT? It's a lost battle. It's done and dusted. ALL of the time he'd invested in that crap: USELESS. That's time & money he should have spent on developing a PLATFORM where people can buy his shit.

He don't like iTunes. Fine. But then he HAS to have his OWN version of it, otherwise he's just screwing himself. The vast majority of his post-1995 output is NOT available ANYWHERE. How goddamn stupid is that? Why is he more concerned about someone seeing an "unauthorised" upload of a video of his when he should be concerned there's no LINK next to that video that says "like this track? buy it HERE".

daPrettyman said:

NOBODY is doing that, except PRINCE. He's fighting useless battles over pennies while letting heaps of money pass him by. He's NEVER gonna win these battles, because the short-term "profit" ("ha, now YouTube won't profit from my videos") is in fact HIS loss. You think YouTube gives a shit about Prince? No. But who did "suffer"? The fans. And Prince's "win" thus became a huge PR loss: "hey look, it's Prince being an ass AGAIN".

Answer me this: how much money could Prince have made by offering downloads of the Monaco gigs in soundboard quality? In DVD-quality video? Instead he made ZILCH, fans got screwed again because a concert that was filmed AT HIS REQUEST resulted in two crummy vids to appease subscribers of his failed website, a third clip was given to some dopey girl, and in the meantime bootleggers were laughing their asses off while MULTIPLE RELEASES were prepared and pre-sold within days. Are the bootleggers ripping Prince off? Or is Prince screwing himself?

No more candy 4 U spoilt brats! LOL!!!

You make a good, undisputable point Bart, but you would get it across much, much better with less emotion and much less cursing.

The answer to your question "Are the bootleggers ripping Prince off? Or is Prince screwing himself?" is both.

No matter how you view it, the fact is and will always remain that bootleggers make and sell unauthorised copies without paying him a dime. That's ripping off for sure.

At the same time nonetheless you are absolutely right in my opinion that Prince is in fact screwing himself, and his fans too. It's true that he could have had a web platform 10 years ago already where he could have sold all his post WB stuff.

He could have pleased his fans and at the same time make loads of money.

If only, if only... If only he didn't do this and if only he had done that.
Yes it's a damn shame things didn't turn out like they could and should have but it's also a tired debate about the past and a waste of time and energy.

Let's debate on how that platform should look like and what it should offer, at what price and on what conditions, service etc. What it would really take to get good and running. And whether he should also do business with sites as youtrube and itunes next to his own platform.I think it's much more productive to debate on that sort of stuff than on the past.

Here's an idea:

Just a simple website, no shiny flashy stuff, where you can download or order CD's and dvd/videos of individual, post WB songs and albums, live shows and rare 'bootleg' stuff. All in the best sound quality there is.

A sort of membership construction to get the music should still be required but the membership should be free. Only when you choose to download or order you pay with a simple to use, proven to be safe payment system, also no credit card required so as not alienate those without and make everybody happy.

A user friendly download system is required, similar in use to itunes for example. That platform should offer a steadily growing library of Prince music, preferably adding new stuff each month, but at Prince's courtesy.

Downloads should not be DRM protected and should be fit to burn on a CD. Any license should simply be for personal, private use, reserving all other rights.

To avoid new crystal ball fiascos with CD's taking more than a year to arrive, not all music should be available on CD. The orderering system should be able to guarantee delivery within a month, maximum two, worldwide and have an excellent customer service. If he can't, then he shouldn't offer it either.

Prices should be reasonable, reflecting the fact that 'the middlemen' have been cut out. I would say 5-10 $ per album of about 10 songs and 50 cts - 1$ per song. Probably not what Prince would want, but nonetheless what he should accept if he wants it to become really popular and succesful. On the long term he would make more money then too.

It should be a serious, yet low investment long term project. He don't need much to make it work. A safe and excellently operated website and payment/ordering system with strong servers, no nonsense and a steady stream of music is all it takes.

Perhabs there could be some news and artwork added every now and then, or he could try and have a section for fans to show their art for example. But no debating forums or other bullshit. He should leave that to the org and other fan sites which he preferably should just leave alone as long as they are not damaging him financially.

The problem is of course that he feels nobody should take his work and run with it without permission or fuck him over in any other way, which is absolutely his right. However, as you correctly stated, many times it's also pointless and a waste of time, money and energy. Better to focus on what you can do to make your fans happy and make your money. Better to be smarter than the bootleggers.

That doesn't mean he should let anything go, on the contrary, but he really does need to stop threatening and sueing for any tidbit. On the other hand I don't think he needs to stop taking action against massive or blatant infringement, such as bootleggers. Especially not when he starts to provide the fans with the bootleg stuff himself.

That would be of course the smartest and wisest thing to do. He would be completely in his right to go after them, but he would also morally be right because he would be competing with them too. In any case it is and remains his right and he can and should be able protect it. Fans have to respect that and not bitch as long as he provides them too with that stuff and remains reasonable in excercising his rights.

W.r.t. this subject (see topicstart) Prince appears to have a strategy of some sorts w.r.t. boot material (versus his media/news thingie, see some other thread).
I do think we all can see that this doesn't work well for him...
The 'free publicity' factor appears to be overlooked.
Or?

He can't be that jealous of them if he puts an offical one on his website. The one with Japanese subtitles. Is that a bootleg too? I can't seem to find it back now.

Tremolina said:

All of that has been discussed ad nauseum for years and years. We've offered plenty of suggestions and ideas on how Prince's web presence could be mutually beneficial while protecting his copyright and making we the fans happy. He took those ideas and dropped them under the wheel of whatever it is he's getting around with these days and backed over them.

Should we just stop talking about things Prince related period because eventually, everything becomes the past.

BartVanHemelen said:

I totally get ur point, Bart. But come on, if you were the artist, would you want people broadcasting your videos and music without you getting paid for it? I'm not defending P, but many companies are not on the youtube bandwagon. They are just as against it as Prince. For instance, there are many Warner videos that aren't allowed on youtube. They aren't going for it. I have uploaded several youtube files and a lot of them got pulled for copyright issues. These people want youtube to pay licensing fees to them.

Other companies, like Universal, freely post their video catalog for you to view on their page and promote their artists. They then direct you to iTunes or amazon to purchase the song or videos.

As for Prince releasing DVDs. I, too, would love to see tours and shows on DVD, but do people really buy that many music dvds? I cannot locate the figures on how much Live at the Aladdin sold, but I know it didn't go gold. I really don't think a show like the Montreaux show would sell well outside of his hardcore fanbase. I think if he had released the Musicology tour, he would have had a big seller on his hands.

interesting topic but I have a theory. anybody ever think that P may be behind a few of the boots himself? why not get in on the unofficial action yourself without out having to front the money for distribution for an independent album, or worry about contracts and legal stuff. a few boots I have seen from a label that will remain unnamed, had exclusive photos, superior sound quality from a sound board and just seemed to good to not be official. made me think for a sec that he may play both sides of the fence every now and then. just a thought, not saying that I think he does this for a fact.
[Edited 10/3/09 11:29am]

daPrettyman said:

They weren't going for it. It seems Warner Bros. realized the error of their ways and how to make a profit utilizing Youtube, which probably explains why Prince had his sudden change of heart regarding Youtube as well.

http://losangeles.bizjour...ily14.html


[Edited 10/3/09 12:57pm]

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

The prince.org circle of life.

Prince releases an album.

Reviews claim its the best thing he's done in years.

Orgers split into "it sucks", "it's amazing", and "it's ok"

Prince does a few TV appearances and live shows to promote the album.

An underwhelming official website is created.

Three to four months pass.

Orgers begin asking about Prince's next album.

"Prince should open the vault" threads begin.

"Prince should release a DVD of _____ performance" threads soon follow.

Repeat.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:[quote]

daPrettyman said:

Thanx 4 posting that, but WB still won't allow some videos. I posted a Christopher Williams track and it was removed.

ElCapitan said:

Some let only a week or 2 pass before asking when is the next album coming out.