He's right to be jealous of it. I don't have his bootlegs but I have in the club days receieved cds from djs with the most brilliant music that I'd never hear on the radio or see in the shops. There'd be no tracklist, you didn't know the artist or the tune name, you had to guess. The underground music market in that regard is far more appealing than commercially available stuff.
It also reminds me of why I moved away from commercial artists.

ernestsewell said:

I just read recently that The Black Crowes actually encourage their fans to record their concerts, providing you not encroaching on other people's space, and circulate it among fans, there's a section on their site which list the boots which they don't mind on file sharing torrent sites and which boots they just want you to pass on to fans, incredible!

ElCapitan said:

And for good reason. That wasn't just amateur hour, that was screwing your fans at a professional level.

ElCapitan said:

I suggest you go read up on some of the fan gatherings in PP and what happened there. Like fans getting to vote for songs etc. Remember that?

ElCapitan said:

No, we'd bitch about the released songs being remixes, edits, already released, etc. -- because Prince would find a way to fuck it up. Hell, he'd find several ways.

CB was a mess ALL OVER. Not just the mess that was the pre-ordering, but the actual product was such a frikking rip-off. Three discs which actually fit on two? Lame remixes? Edits? This is what took him A WHOLE YEAR?

ElCapitan said:

Yeah, because he's too busy focusing on ... what? They taped his Montreux set in HD AT HIS REQUEST and what happens? NOTHING! Oh yeah, we get two vids in the wrong aspect ratio on his crappy site. And some girl on YouTube gets another clip. This from the man some fams claim is a "perfectionist".

How long was he peddling The Chocolate Invasion or The Slaughterhouse? Three years? Was it really so frikking hard to press up 5,000 CDs and sell these online? No fuss, no "here's my next major album I'm gonna do a world tour for" baloney, just "got this laying around thought you might enjoy this".

Quite frankly, I don't need him to be involved. Matter of fact, let's keep Prince AWAY from all that. But if he's hiring people to find him camels @ 3 AM or to film videos that will never be shown anywhere, how 'bout hiring a couple of folks who go through the archives and start releasing soundboard concerts from various eras? You know, stuff that actually BRINGS IN MONEY? Stuff that PLEASES THE FANS?

BartVanHemelen said:

He needs a hater to run his career!

BartVanHemelen said:

Everything you said is true and has been said ad nauseum for decades now (and I didn't believe that PP vote would ever turn into anything because, ya know, it's Prince). But it wouldn't be the org without another "Prince should open the vault and make a ton of cash" thread so, whatever, I'm not losing any sleep over it. Maybe it'll work this time.
[Edited 9/30/09 14:15pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Maybe I would change my tune and become all bitter and spend all my time feeling angry about something I have absolutely no control over.

Maybe you would help defend me if it went to court. We could base our case around the fact you alledge him to be

a) A maniac

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

b) who acts in an insane way

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I reckon you are higher on Prince's who shall I sue next list.

funksoldier said:

And that's exactly what's wrong.

BartVanHemelen said:

It is about ownership bcuz it I don't own my art, I can't release my art the way that I want it. Especially if a company like Warner Bros. owns it. If I don't fully own my art, I can't control it the way that I want 2 control my art. Artists should b able 2 profit from their art, not a stranger. If the shoe was one the other foot, wouldn't u b bothered by tha fact that a stranger is making money off of ur creation? I haven't decided if I want 2 put this stuff out yet, I'm not even finished with my art, and u're putting it out anyway without my content? When u have ownership of ur art, u have control and power of it as well. Yeah Prince can go out and battle it out by released these same songs but, with different mixes but, how long is that gonna work.? Should he even have 2 go there? Should Prince even have 2 go against his own art? Prince can sell concerts. That's not the issue at all, I think. The bootleg market has been a gift and curse 4 Prince music. The bootleg market has messed up his money on some levels. U're right Bart, it's not messing up his money now. It's him. Those ideas that u've mention on here sounds great but, let's be real: those things can't really happen like we want them and Prince ideas won't see the light. Let's break it down:

-Prince could release deluxe editions of CDs with outtakes but, Warner Bros. owns the rights 2 his master recordings of some our favorite albums by him and related artist. I think it's crazy that WB hasn't worked out a deal with Prince 2 make these kind of ideas happen. It's crazy that Prince don't own the rights now. It's his art! I think Prince regaining his publishing rights and name played a huge part of him being able 2 still profit and have some say in those recordings and videos from back then.

-Prince could release CDs with previously unreleased album projects like Dylan's Bootleg series but, he does not have all of the rights 2 his master recordings. I would love 2 c great and interesting shelved projects like The Dream Factory, The Crystal Ball, The Second Coming, The Very Best Of 'the symbol', and even some of those related project 2 b released on his site. Some of those he can put out now but, do u think he feels he should at this point? Does he have the time 2 put some of those 2gether? I think it would b great 2 c these projects finally c the light. Then again, he mayb saving those up 4 later.

Prince could release an archives set like Neil Young. I think that's what the Crystal Ball was and part 2 was gonna continue along what the first one did in some parts. Prince having that "big change" back in 2001 may have stopped that. U never know, Prince may decide 2 finally follow-up the Crystal Ball.

Prince could release unedited concerts on CD/DVD but, does he own the rights 2 some of the past video releases? I would love 2 finally get 'Prince and The Revolution LIVE' on an offical dvd. Heck, put out the 'Musicology Tour' or the '3121: The Movie' on dvd. The question remains: an unedited concert, it that the way Prince wants 2 put it out?
[Edited 10/1/09 6:41am]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

LOL! U've got a point.

BartVanHemelen said:

The choir sings HALLELUJAH!!!!

This shit pissing me off to no extent. You want money? Here's how it works:

Step 1. Record it.
Step 2. Release it.
Step 3. I pay you money.
Step 4. We both get something we want.

Prince, it's been going on for thousands of years. If it ain't broke.....

For fucks sake I don't send an email to my boss with a link to a website that shows a video of me working. I fucking just turn up at work and get paid

Firstly, this one of the best 5 threads I have seen on the org.

Well done Ernest!

As for what should and shouldn't be done, in my opinion the answer is simply for us to appreciate that Prince can do what he wants, when he wants with his product and brand. Anybody not engaged to provide that advice to him isn't in a position to have their thoughts taken into account. I wouldn't take free advice from anyone about my business so why would I expect Prince to do so.

For what it's worth, I'm grateful for any release from Prince and they are a luxury that I allow myself to enjoy.

Remember, it could be worse and we could all be searching for our missing relatives and countrymen in Samoa today in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami - that is a real tragedy!

bigd74 said:

Björk allows this too. Anyone officially released stuff is off-limits but any audience-recorded stuff is perfectly fine. It's logical....allow it to exist for anything you haven't released.

Blur's recent Hyde Park concerts are another idea. They hired a private company to record and release the two concerts. You paid through a website, the cd's were made and shipped out. A nice present for long-time Blur fans. Being one, I bought both double cd sets, so I have a recording of both concerts I couldn't attend as they were thousands of miles away.

I would lay $40 down straight away for a dvd/cd of Montreaux, and another for the 21 nights tour, another for 3121 Vegas....and on and on. I just don't get it.

I think Prince doesn't hate the bootleg market nor is he jealous of it. I think he's mad at the bootleg market and he has a reason 2 b. Still that don't give Prince the right 2 make fans suffer. I think Prince should have really tried more 2 work and understand the staff at housequake.com bcuz his offical site and the fan-site could have worked 2gether. They did 4 a second and it was great from a fans view. Prince needs 2 take the bootleg market 4 what it is. Prince hurting ur fans in the process and fighting the bootleg market. He's stopped music from circulating in 1996, I think. So no recordings of outtakes from the last 15 years has not been circulating unless Prince officially released it. All of the old recordings that's been circulating now have been from old lost tapes, that's it. Now, people have since created their own ahdios from concerts. To some degree (like 4 the love of his music), I don't blame them bcuz all Prince has done (especially back in 2000 and 2001) is teased fans about the vault. I think now is a great time 2 release some of those unreleased ahdio and video recordings in the vault. He can do it his way and cash in on it. I understand his view and y he's so frustrated at the bootleg market. I understand y he's against privacy. I understand y he don't like others bsides the artist 2 make money off their art but, don't stop fan-sites and things like that. When Prince sued the company that was selling the bootleg of The Homecoming show, I wasn't mad at that as a fan. They had no business making money off of that. Prince won that lawsuit. I didn't get mad until I read about him being upset at the Housequake site and the staff. I understand that he didn't want the site 2 promote the bootlegs in not way, shape, or form. At the same time, those bootlegs helped u. Those ahdio/video recordings that were being discussed r the samethings that the fans r gonna buy and support, if and when they officially come out. There is nothing wrong with having a discussion about the unreleased stuff. That's all that was up bsides all of the great info about his art. They didn't promote the bootlegs and when they saw that they were, NPG got at them and they took it down. Housequake didn't want problem but, they didn't think that they should be bullied either and I don't blame them. I didn't get mad (as a fan until I heard about the lawsuit about the youtube clip of a kid dancing 2 his music. Then the Housequake site shutdown 4 good, that was the last straw. Prince, u're hurting ur fans and if I was u I would be concern about that. His frustration with the bootleg market has hurt him the most bcuz he's hurt fans and they're tired of it. I think the fact that Housequake (a fan-site) and NPG Music Club/3121 (his official site at the time) co-existed during those good times was the best thing 4 fans and the best thing 4 Prince bcuz that site promoted Prince and the fans promoted Prince. That was best fansite and it was the best place (as fans) 2 show the power of Prince's work of art.

BartVanHemelen said:

I agree with that bcuz now he's slappin those fans in the face that paid the $77 2 join his official site and u rather use other sites 2 post this stuff at. Give me more than just those three album 2 download off of ur site. It's only a few different features but, I can also buy tha music at Taget u know.

ernestsewell said:

But, do outtakes, even from the WB years, count as WB controlled tracks? I don't think so, because some tracks on Crystal Ball (the title track for example) and even the title track to Rave were outtakes from the WB years, so... WB should not be a factor when it comes to outtakes.
I agree with you about Prince being involved in the compilations, though. That is why I stated that he should hire someone to but them together while he focuses on new stuff.

lotusflower said:

I think the Black Crowes did something similar, maybe through the internet, I'm not sure, but I think they released a whole tour of soundboard recordings... maybe somebody here knows the details...

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Sue for what? Nothing in this post indicates that Prince has any grounds to sue. It is not illegal to own or listen to or discuss bootlegs.... you do know that, right?

bigd74 said:

A lot of bands have let their fans do that. Pearl Jam is another. I almost thought DMB did too. Let's face it, how great is a recording going to be with a handheld anyway? Some bands offer a soundboard hookup, first come first serve. It's THOSE bands that understand where the money lies opposed to the lies of where the money is.

I think he should try the Pete Townshend method.

http://www.eelpie.com/sho...?shop=live
http://www.themusic.com/s...bar=encore

connorhawke said:

sms130 said:

First of: no stupid Princebonics. We're grown-ups, not kids texting each other gossip.

Yeah, they stole it. Oh wait, NO. They obtained it via contracts that Prince signed. And extended. Several times. He bragged about the last extension. (And BTW at the same time REM and Metallica were also signing new contracts with WB -- except they were smart enough to include ownership of masters etc. in there.)

sms130 said:

Oh really? Who should profit from the musical output of The Time? You might also want to ask Sandra St Victor about this.

sms130 said:

Happens to me every day. And no, I'm not bothered. I get paid.

sms130 said:

Bullcrap. Nonsense. PROVE IT.

sms130 said:

Yeah, let's blame WB. Why bother with the FACTS. Hint: go ask the guys who compiled "Ultimate" who the PITA was. Figure out why WB paid Prince to NOT get involved in "The Hits/The B-Sides".

sms130 said:

And WB PAID for it. Something Prince AGREED WITH when he signed his contract. And signed it again. And again.

sms130 said:

You seriously don't understand any of this. Lemme give you a hint: Warner Chappell does not equal Warner Bros Records. Oh, and WC have been extremely good for Prince. Prince's own advisers told him so, before he handed his music right to UNIVERSAL. Yes, another MAJOR COMPANY.

sms130 said:

Grown-ups would renegotiate. If I'd been Prince,
a) I'd never sign that ridiculous contract back in 1992 (but then that contract was according to PRINCE'S WISHES, and AGAINST the advise of his entourage)
b) I'd have looked at what others were doing and remembered the lessons FROM BACK IN HIGH SCHOOL (read the bios: Prince DID receive lessons in how the music industry worked back in high school) and negotiated a deal where I'd get ownership of master recordings after X amount of time, and where I'd get to deliver a major album every 18 months or so + tour and promote it, but have the freedom to do outside projects (Beck had such a deal, Sonic Youth had such a deal, both with major labels), etc.

Instead, he behaved like a petulant kid and stomped his little foot and whined.

And yet fams like you continue to defend his idiotic behavior and pretend he himself hasn't ripped off other artists, or locked people into contracts.

sms130 said:

I don't give a fuck about that. For all I care he can do his one major "dvd release from a tour (that is a compilation from X gigs with re-recorded audio and badly edited and in the wrong aspect ratio)" and present it as his major release, just as long as he gives fans RAW, UNEDITED audio/video of any performance.

Prince still can't make that distinction: he still thinks that every fart of his deserves a press release, and gets upset when something isn't a huge hit. THAT is one of his many, many issues. He needs to realize that when his fans want to re-listen to that concert they've just been to, they will do so, whether eh likes it or not.

Get this: EVERY concert + aftershow (except 1) fromm 21 nights has been taped by MULTIPLE sources. Ditto for the Monaco gigs, who started circulating mere days after they were finished. Now imagine that all of those people had paid Prince for a pristine copy of those gigs: wouldn't that make him a lot happier than realizing that a) he's NOT getting paid now, and b) people are still re-listening to those gigs, except to less than stellar audience recordings.

How many gigs has Prince done post-1996? Now imagine that all of those gigs were available online, that each gig would cost $15 to download. Now add social networking to that mix (one Prince-fan on Facebook urging another to buy gig X because it has a killer version of song Y). Now imagine that each gig would have been bought by 1,000 people.

It isn't just that he's missing out on that paycheck, it's that he's missing out on ALL OF THE POSITIVE FEEDBACK this would get him.

What is the story behind the Rave DVD ?

sms130 said:

See that big button on your keyboard? The "Enter" button? Hit that every once in a while. It's not hard. In fact, it's far easier to do that typing in stupid Princebonics.

Change those two things -- i.e. edit the above into a READABLE format -- and I'll bother reading it.

djThunderfunk said:

This is kind of a dispute. Hell, it's the kind of thing grown-ups would negociate about, but Prince isn't a grown-up.

Judging from so many special editions etc it seems record companies does have some significant control -- then again, perhaps this is usually a case of artists realising they can make money from stuff they have lying around. Duran Duran just released Rio in a limited edition 2-CD set with demos and alternate mixes etc. This is IIRC the second or third remaster of that album, plus the singles have also been compiled into two great box sets etc.

djThunderfunk said:

Those things looked to me like Prince challenging WB, and WB deciding it wasn't worth it. Though I don't doubt they'd had enough at one point and sent some lawyers his way, since he stopped "leaking" those Prince-era tunes after a while.

djThunderfunk said:

Since when has that stopped him?

Imago said:

The point I made in my original post was that there were huge lags of time between taping different sets of music, leaving the audience to putz around and eventually lose energy. You can tell that at times the audience just doesn't give a shit. When Lenny walks in, there's an overhead shot where folks are just .....there. Someone on the Org was there, and mentioned this.

That's not even speaking to the "video" quality, the iffy sound, and the simplistic stage set. Come on, this is Paisley Park. His OWN studio, which means much less overhead in finding a place to play, thereby allowing more cash toward a set design and a real stage show.

ernestsewell said:

This was actually recorded over two nights, wasn't it? Peopl were asked to ome back in the same clothes or something stupid like that?

connorhawke said:

It was recorded over two nights, and it's not stupid to have people come back in the same clothes. TV shows do it all the time. MOVIES do it too. You have to have a fluid nature to a video or something similar that is taped over more than one day.

The opposite is true for game shows. When contestants that return for more than one show (like Jeopardy, etc), they actually bring a change of clothes. Those shows tape 2 or 3 episodes a day, so you can't have a contestant in the same clothes for a string of shows.

ernestsewell said:

Nah that's not what I meant by stupid. I meant that it was stupid to have a big concert/dvd release planned and have it become such a debacle that people need to come back another night to finish something.

connorhawke said:

Again, filming something over a couple of nights isn't a debacle or unusual. However, a concert is something that should be done in one big take for the most part. Keeps the energy up. He should have run that show like he would a real concert, making quick wardrobe changes, having guests lined up to hit the stage when called, and just done it. Do the same thing the next night. If he needs to do close up, or "beauty shots" on a third night w/o an audience, then so be it. A lot of these HBO or Showtime concerts are one performance that is filmed in a certain city (sometimes closer to the end of the tour, once the show itself is solidified and down pat). But when he's in his own environment and has control of things, at least make it GOOD. Bring the quality up. Unfortunately it was the opposite.

This is what I wish more threads could be like.

1. Thought and insight in the original post.

2. Actual respectful conversation of the topic.

Take notes people.