It hit me earlier in a thread when a DVD vs the overpriced and underwhelming Opus was discussed.

Prince has released very few really good DVDs, especially concerts. Aladdin was half the show, poorly shot and edited and packaged. Rave was underwhelming at best, and we know the stories behind that. We have a stack of DVDs and VHS' that are hodge podges of videos loosely wrapped with some story line that makes as much sense as Spender & Heidi's "career".

The bootleggers have put out everything Prince does, it seems. Example: All 21 shows of the O2 concerts were recorded on audio, and all but 1 after show was recorded (if I recall). A good handful of DVDs were released as well. Yes, the quality suffered because the audio was audience not soundboard; the videos were hand held, not pro shot. But the fact is, a group of fans dedication for Prince music galvanized them to the point of committing to not only sneaking recording equipment into the arena, but also sitting quietly throughout the performance so there is as little audience interruption as possible.

We've seen classic shows such as the First Avenue performance. Let's face it, it was classic BECAUSE it was recorded. If it just went down in history as a one-off performance, and we heard that's where three tracks on PR were recorded, we'd think.....eh. But the fact that we saw Prince on the cusp of uber fame, premiering not only Wendy, but 5 new songs, plus a Joni Mitchell cover....it's now classic. It's now highly sought after. Most of us wouldn't really give a shit about Joni Mitchell's music, but if Prince does a cover of "A Case Of U", then suddenly, we're all over it. The same arguments can be made for the Trojan Horse after show, and other various "classic" shows.

Now why Prince doesn't record AND release things is beyond anyone. Why he loses interest in a project is really unknown in the long run. But imagine if he had the foresight to release a pro shot of almost every tour he's done? He gets mad at the bootleggers for doing it, and let's face it - little money is made on bootlegs. St. Paul and I were briefly discussing bootlegs the other day, and I explained that a fan isn't interested in making money, they're in it for the experience, every nugget possible gobbled up. It's all about trading and increasing your personal library of Prince music. I myself have made two bootlegs, plus one song remix six years ago, and never even tried to put a fake UPC code on it, or sell it. I put it on the usual areas and fans seemed to enjoy it. It was for the love of the music, not for the idea of making money.

Releases like The Hits, or Aladdin are bread crumbs at best. Despite the audience recordings, the 02 DVDs are the true meaty morsels we want. 21 nights and he can't find ONE show to put out? Or even two or three to edit together as one (which is often done)?

Has Prince given up against the bootleggers? Perhaps he has in some ways. He's locked down his releases, his videos, YouTube, and anyone/thing else that dares cross his sacred purple line of making money. But what Prince doesn't realize is that the bootleggers have helped his career more than any $2500 opus, $30 coffee table book, Oprah appearance, PBS interview, or special retailer deal ever could. The bootleggers, are in a way, his (un)official production company. Often times even the artwork is miles above the nonsense that he or Sam Jennings or whoever has come up with to put on an album. (A good example is the Statix artwork that was put out for every NPGMC release in 2001. There was no artwork provided by NPGMC, but yet this fan with a great photoshop talent released awesome artwork, every month totally different, and fully based on the NPGMC's own website graphics. NPGMC even contacted Statix to have them officially make artwork for NPGMC. It was THAT good. Statix refused, but continued to make artwork themselves for the fans, and as a fan, making NO money on it.)

Prince HAS to know his career has been catapulted by the fans buying his stuff, going to his shows, and also digging into the bootlegs and passing them around. He also has to know that him passing out cassettes to band members, and employees has created this market. The bootleg market is more than The Black Album or First Avenue. He himself stated he's one of the most bootlegged artists since Dylan (both having infamous unreleased albums). Yet instead of understand the bootleg market, and what's out there (we know he knows), he ignores it, and shuts it down with a mantra of people stealing his bread and bling.

Prince has it in him, and in the vault, to release things, new and old, tours and videos, etc. I think it's a money issue. His base has dwindled, and perhaps he's not seeing the ratio of upfront money vs. possible net profits after the fact. It's like he's throwing a fit, a brat driven tantrum, and NOT releasing stuff just to piss off the fans who might give a copy to a friend. Is he SO worried about a DVD ending up on the internet that he just won't release it at all???? Surely not, but probably so.

In the end, with mediocre releases like _____, _____, and _____ (fill in the blank), it was the bootleggers who kept Prince's career interesting even through his worst years.

I totally see your point and agree with you. I wish we would get pro shot concerts and tours. Hell, even Janet Jackson, Madonna, Britney, AC/DC, Aerosmith, and Journey have released decent DVDs and videos that contain their tours.

Prince has to know these will sell. His crappy videos for 3 Chains of Gold, The Hits, Gett Off, etc. have sold very well.

Maybe he gave up on releasing videos after he tried to sell us Beautiful Strange and The Beautiful Experience (I think) through the club.

I do not always agree with you but I think this is a good post. At the end of the day we can always theorise as to what Prince's motives are for his attitude towards releasing his material is.

These are a few thoughts of mine.

Prince has been hugely successful always doing things his own way. He feels no need to change. He likes not doing what the others do and rebels against anyone telling him what to do. "I dont need you to tell me, what clothes to wear" springs to mind.

He likes to be mysterious. He likes the idea of holding things back. Releasing everything means there is nothing more to give. It maintains interest in him. He is in show business.

He knows bootlegs exist and he realises that the hardcore will be able to access it. I dont think he has too much issue with that anymore.

I know for one I would be waiting in line to buy his stuff if he had. I don't like the new bootlegs as they are not soundboard or anything like that. They dont have any bass or thump the sound is really thin. Now I'm kind of waining out of the live bootleg stuff ebcause of it unless it's a show that I hear is really awesome.

I would have remained a relatively casual fan if I had never heard the boots and heard what he and his bands can really do.

funksoldier said:

In a way you've backwardly agreed with what I said. I'll explain. His idea of holding back, and being a rebel is the exactly thing that has enticed and created the bootleg market itself. He wants to sit on a Diamonds and Pearls video? Well fuck him, WE'LL put it out for the fans. He wants to sit on a CBII release to clean up the market a bit more? Fine, we'll dig and find the best copies of "Computer Blue" and "Old Friends 4 Sale" we can, and we'll trade that. He feels no need to change? It's passive. The air of mystery he's tried to create (and let's face it, that faded 15 years ago at least) has only added to the fuel that is the fire of bootlegging.

I think he has huge issue with bootlegs. The simple fact that he shuts down a fan site shows that his controlling nature starts with simple things, and the implication is that if he gets all butt hurt over a fan site, then he's definitely going to have a broken dick over a bootlegged show being out there in the masses hands. And there's not a damn thing he can do to control or change that. I think, again, that's why he's had some lock down of everything (youTube, etc). He's just throwing a fit.

The biggest, and saddest, note of rebellion he has is how he's rebelled against his fans. We bought Paisley Park, we bought his homes, we paid for his cars, and everything else. If he never had a hit, or been a nobody, he'd have nothing. I don't want him kissing our ass, and I don't need a pass to go into PP without notice, but at least acknowledge the fans in a better way than a lawsuit, or another website scam promising huge things and delivering nothing.

Although I'm not a NIN fan, Trent Reznor is spot on. He's SO interactive w/ his fans, he's given away songs to be remixed in Apple's GarageBand (TWO songs from With Teeth), and gave away an album or two as well. Any hardcore NIN fan was probably more than grateful for that. You think Prince would EVER do that to just say "Hey, thanks. This one is on me?" Hellz no. People can piss on Wendy and Lisa, or The Family, all the wish, but the fact is people gravitate toward those people not because they were once part of Prince's camp, but because they have built that history w/ the fans being part of Prince's camp, but have continued that on to a new level. They're NICE people. Prince once said he understands a fan's need for things. I question whether he really does, especially in this day and age. W&L understand that. The Family understands that. They're not they only ones, I'm just using them as examples. (NIN is an example of that too of course.)

Anotherwontdare said:

That's exactly what I meant. I was pretty hard core back in the day, but my first boot was The Black Album in 1987, while in the Navy. In fact, a friend in the Navy who is now on the Org gave it to me. (Thanks to the Org, we reconnected after 20 years of missing each other over the years...he's not that big of an internet guy, I am.) It was when I got the Black Album that I knew there was tons more out there. That pushed me into an even bigger realm of fandom (like you and others for sure.)

funksoldier said:

Can we stop with the Prince is a rebel routine? He's aligning himself with corporate interests and using them to attack his fans. He's part of the machine he spent his whole life battling. That is reality.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Yep, and that's why he lost his mojo years ago.

ernestsewell said:

If Prince doesn't stay on top of what's his then who will. He's not like most artists living off an advance for the next cd. If he's not tkaing care of his business then nobody will.
I've seen you make that statement a few times before. What keeps you around then? You're obviously not expecting some great "comeback" from Prince. I'm being curious not critical because a lot of orgers share your sentiment but they're still fans.
[Edited 9/29/09 15:55pm]

HonestMan13 said:

fans who will do everything they can not to enable his maniacal behavior. I didn't sign up for lotus, won't purchase anything Prince ever until he appologizes and stops his bullshit. I'm OK never giving him one red cent ever again

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

What does P have to apologize for? I have no problem with someone choosing not to support someone, but why should he apologize for anything? The worst thing I think he's done was Crystal Ball (as for marketing). The rest of it has been pretty fair to me. Sure, I feel disappointed in LotusFlow3r.com, but I chose to spend $77 and got the shirt, downloads and videos as promoted, but that's all that was advertised.

daPrettyman said:

apologize for trying to shut down the fansites for one. He demanded the sites tell him how they were going to compensate him for pictures of people's tatoos. Legally Prince doesn't even know what rights he does and does not have. he simply had the monetary might to try and extort money from the sites.

If he wants to blame websherriff for this draconian approach, then at least admit he fucked up in using them. He owes the fans appologies for so much more but he can start right there.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

:claps:
[Edited 9/29/09 16:41pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I get ur point. However, I still don't think he owes us an apology. I think he did all of the fan site thing so people won't be giving his music away for free. If you notice, Warners did the same thing on youtube as Prince.

I don't see a problem with him wanting compensation for the broadcast of his material, but I do have a problem when he releases songs like "Pfunk" (as it was originally called). I still can't stand listening to that song because of the sentiment behind it.

I have suspicion that P has a bunch of lawyers working for him that put a lot of stuff in his ear.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

amen! Tell it like it is!

I'm starting to get tired of this "prince can't do no wrong" BS and I agree with you I think prince should make a video himself and put it on YouTube making a public apologie to the fans reguarding lotusflower and for suing his own fanbase like that he really needs to get his act together or else his fanbase will drop and no fanbase means no cash or support it was his fans that made him what he is now and he should NEVER forget that

Prince doesn't have to apologize to anybody for taking control of his own business practices. If you don't like his business methods then don't support him with your money. R.Kelly pissed on a teenager and I no longer buy his CDs. If you feel Prince has committed some legal affront to you then go through the justice system for compensation/retribution.

When I got all of my bootlegs I was essentially stealing from Prince and he's been good about not having me arrested. I consider us even, if anything at all.

what could possibly be holding him back from releasing stuff you want????

myfavorite said:

this is what is so stupid about the ENTIRE THING. He does all these backflips to get money for stupid ass pictures of tattoos enflaming and enraging the base, but that base would do backflips to max out their credit cards if he just released shit! It's insane. It's like a man with a PHD trying to make his wealth from walking the streets collecting cans from trashcans for recycling money!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

That is brilliant, and spot on!

ernestsewell said:

I mean it just isn't that hard to grasp! But you are right, about Prince being jealous. He has the ability to run anyone anything into the ground with his brilliant talent but he is just lazy to the bone these days.

I don't think he's jealous, I just think he don't like people putting out his art without his content or permission. He should have some type of share of the profits. It's about ownership 4 him. The bootleg market is messing up his money but, then again he has so much amazing work that he may feel that it's not gonna do nothing except build it up even more. I think he could use the bootleg market to his advantage. I think he knows this as well. I think tha fansites could have worked side-by-side with his official site. Prince didn't and still does not have forums on his official site. It's stuff like this could have work well 4 him. He could have done it his way. The Housequake fansite was the perfect site and the best site on Prince besides his offical site. Those sites could have work hand-and-hand. I really wished that would have happen bcuz the sites could benefit from it in a heartbeat and (more importantly) the fans could benefit from this. Over the last 10 years Prince has put out stuff from the vault that we thought didn't exist nor know nothing about. He's teased us with some of the cool stuff sitting there in the vault. He has so many projects and songs sitting there that it would not hurt putting some of it out but, I guess he feels like 'y should I put it out?'. 'I still have so much 2 say now just like I did b4'. I think he wants 2 put out his art his way and does not feel that somebody else should leak nor profit off his art. I think in some ways, he is being foolish and selfish about some of things he's been doing in regards 2 his art and protecting it. It's so many things right now that he could do on his official site that (I think) could benefit him and could hurt the bootleg market but, hey I'm just a fan voicing my opinion.

sms130 said:

How about he go after the bootleggers. It's the equivalent of locking up the person who buys a dime bag and never catching the drug dealers themselves.

dontcha think him appearing so retentive in fact creates interest enough for fans to seek out his underground stuff? perhaps calculating in itself

sms130 said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

He has never directly attacked me and I have more bootlegs than I have actually listened to or watched. Okay, he might have closed down some things that I liked to visit but in my opinion, and that’s all it is, an opinion, that's his right. He is the one with the talent, the brand to protect, not me.

I wouldn’t like anyone to tell me how to manage my career. So what if NIN have a different model? I hope its working for them. I think that Prince has earned the right to do things as he damn/care well likes.

You know, when I listen to a boot from the early eighties I can't get my head around just how long he has been doing this stuff. He is from the old school and has decided that the new school is not really a format he wants to participate fully in. I can deal with that.

I am grateful that boots exist, it has taken my appreciation of music (not just Prince) to a whole new level (and I would like to take this op to thank all of you that have got involved over the years) That said, I was a massive fan before I found out about them. I actually like the fact that I know what he can do and others don't. It’s why I don’t feel too bad about the 77 dollars. Over the years I know I have heard things that Prince didn’t want me to. A little bit of karma.

HonestMan13 said:

funksoldier said:

WRONG.

HonestMan13 said:

I don't think bying bootlegs is stealing, because If he puts out an official DVD or CD (in better quality) of anything I already have on a bootleg, I would buy it.
And I know that anyone on the .org would do the same !

BartVanHemelen said:

I think, when you look back over his entire career, he can be described as hugely successful and that he always does things his own way. Ups and downs yes but overall a success.

You may feel he could have been more successful, as may I, but I think its diffciult to argue against the premise that Prince has been hugely successful or that he has done things that he didnt want to do.