My theory: Prince would never had left Warner back in the mid-1990s, if he had great sales figures at that time?? The conflict was all about the money... $$$$$ ?

am I right - or wrong ?

.... Prince used to sell a lot of albums in the 1980s.. but he started to sell less, got red figures in the Warner Bros. accounts. The conflict between them started,

Prince was spending more than he earned.. and Warner's were seeing him as "bad business".

Isn't this the real truth to why he left Warner Bros. back then and changed his name to ????



I mean all this talk about artistic freedom, ownership and lack of support...



aren't these just bad excuses, the real reason was that Prince couldn't keep up with selling albums like back then, he just wasn't able to sell like he used to....



The main conflict between Prince and Warner Bros. was about: $$$$$


What do you think..... am I right or totally wrong.... ?


I mean IF all this was about artistic freedon, why haven't we seen some action from Prince now he's a so-called "free artist"?



Please don't crusify me for asking this question..

.
[Edited 1/2/10 1:26am]

i honestly think it was the masters....

When Prince signed that huge contract with Warners in 1992,it guaranteed him a $10 million advance for each album....as long as the previous album sold at least 5 million copies.With the exception of a few albums,Prince was never a massive seller,so 5 million was an unrealistic goal.I think Prince was intrigued by the potential to make all that money (the deal was worth $100 million) but when it became evident that he wouldn't be able to reach those sales goals,he got pissed.That's when the war with Warners really began.

nyse said:

he never brought up the masters until he was out of the contract and realized he couldn't do anything with all that old stuff.

thedance said:

What sort of action are you expecting? Seems to me like he's been releasing far more since he left Warner.

With Warner:

For You
Prince
Dirty Mind
Controversy
1999
Purple Rain
Around The World In A Day
Parade
Sign "O" The Times - 2 discs
The Black Album
Lovesexy
Batman
Graffiti Bridge
Diamonds And Pearls
Symbol
Come
The Gold Experience
Chaos & Disorder
The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale

Post Warner:
Emancipation - 3 discs
Crystal Ball - 5 discs inc Kamasutra and The Truth
Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic
Rave In2 The Joy Fantastic
The Rainbow Children
One Nite Alone Piano
ONA Live - 3 discs
N.E.W.S.
Musicology
3121
Planet Earth
Indigo Nights
Lotusflow3r - 3 discs

With Warner we had 20 discs over 22 years, post Warner, 23 discs in 13 years, plus all the NPGMC stuff, like Slaughterhouse, Xpectation, Chocolate Invasion etc.

Do you think Warner would have allowed the multi disc sets? Would we have got the Piano CD, or NEWS? Like them or not, it looks like a fair amount of artistic freedom being shown.
[Edited 7/13/09 15:37pm]

SoulAlive said:

I still wonder why Prince couldn´t figure this out before signing that contract. He should have known that it´s very difficult, even for megastars like him and MJ and Madonna or George Michael, to sell 5 million albums.
I guess he was still high from the sales figures of Diamonds and Pearls.But even that album´s success didn´t really mean that later albums would automatically sell just as well.

KoolEaze said:

if he hadn't fired his management/legal team before going into negotiations, he might have figured it out.

TheEnglishGent said:


If you're gonna count "Kamasutra", "N.E.W.S.", and "Xpectation", then on the Warner side, you have to count the Madhouse CDs, plus throw in the Time albums, Vanity 6, Appolonia 6, Sheila's CDs, The Hits B-Sides CD, the many many b-sides we had on singles (at least 2 discs worth), The Family... I think Warner gave him plenty of freedom.

Anywho...

The whole thing was about money, plain and simple.
[Edited 7/13/09 15:57pm]

I think it was more about freedom to release things as he wished to. We constantly heard about "over saturation of the market". This also started when he wanted to put out a song called "Let's Rock", as a one off single, and WB said no. It was reworked into "Let's Work". He said it started back then, just a bit.

Even though an album a year on average is prolific in its own right, Prince still wanted to put out more. Crystal Ball was whittled down because WB didn't want a 3 LP set, so we got SOTT instead. But still....it went from Dream Factory, Crystal Ball, then SOTT. Prince bucked the system by releasing ATWIAD without any promotion at first. It just kind of landed in stores, but quickly picked up wind.

Having said all that, it does seem rather odd that Come, Black Album, Gold, and Chaos were all released in very quick succession. During that time there was also a 3 disk hits set. You also had Girl 6 in 1996 as well. I think he was whipping out records for them to quickly end the contract fulfillment. He still owed a couple of records to them (might still owe another, who knows), so we got The Vault and Very Best.

That's not to say money was NOT an issue, because it was. I'm sure as time went on, he negotiated a better and better deal for himself, but his "freedom" came in putting out what he wanted when he wanted. He said WB never really fought him on the content (like sexual lyrics or whatever), but rather the timing of it all. Too bad that theory couldn't be put to a test now. Prince isn't relevant to the music world these days (oh shut up, he's not; wish he was, but he's not). If he was relevant, and independent as well, he could really test the saturation idea, and either prove WB right or wrong.

He's probably happier to be free, but his music has suffered greatly. I've long said that although I don't want him to be in distress, it's usually when he's in the midst of a lot of conflict that his music soars. The midst of his WB fight? We had Gold, Chaos, Exodus, and Come. During the 80's when the Revolution was fighting and the breakups were happening, SOTT came about. He went through a drug phase and a dark time....we got Black Album and Lovesexy. When he's under pressure to write a soundtrack or three, act, etc, we get Purple Rain.

KoolEaze said:

I think alot if it had to do with ego.He noticed those mega-deals that Michael Jackson and Madonna signed and he wanted a huge,lucrative deal of his own.When the deal didn't work out and Warners shut down Paisley Park Records,his ego was bruised.I never believed that his war with Warners was strictly about ownership of his master recordings.In 1992,he wasn't saying anything about master recordings.Money and ego played a big part in his decision to go to war with them.

ernestsewell said:

ditto to much of what you've said. It's no secret that Prince is a tad controlling so it struck me back in the 80's that his prolific nature wasn't going to support a lasting relationship with WB when times got rough.

You mentioned that how odd it was that Come, Black Album, Gold, and Chaos came out in quick succession (although Gold was actually delayed to the detriment of its sales) but I think around that time Prince had gotten to the point where he didn't care if WB would support the release with promotion so he'd release them as quick as possible just to get out of his contract. That said, the whole Prince suffering = good music thing is overrated, along with the Black and Lovesexy, but that's another topic.

billymeade said:

I didn't include Xpectation, but Kamasutra and NEWS were official releases by Prince, so it's valid to include them. Madhouse is credited to Madhouse, not Prince. Even if you take them out of the equation, we've had more Prince discs per year after Warner than before. We've had more individual CD's in nearly 10 years less time!!


The op asked the question,
I was just addressing the point that we've seen more action per year on average since Warner than during that period.

Wasnt it just about control over his own masters at the end of the day?
He wasnts a lawyer, all he wanted was the best record deal offered. there was just a lot of complicated small print etc that was going on that he didnt know what he was getting into back then, it happens.

catpark said:

Yeah but when exactly did he realise that owning his masters was important to him? I'm not sure when he signed the big hundred million dollar deal (I think it was after the release of the o(+> album) but shouldn't he have refused to resign with WB if they weren't willing to let him own his masters? The timing just seems a little odd because it wasn't too long after he resigned with WB (maybe a year or two) that he started writing "slave" on his cheek. If it was that important to him he either should have made sure it was in the contract or he should not have resigned with them. I think it's bogus how he tried to portray himself as a victim. He was the one that signed the contract!

rialb said:

You know what they say about hindsight being 20/20? Applies to Prince too. It always seemed to me that prince signed the big contract, got all kinds of support from wb with the O+> album and then had a moment of clarity when he realized that even with all the promotion he wasn't gonna come out ahead on that deal. It happens. Only difference between prince and most of us is that his lessons learned are more public than ours.

And another thing I GUARANTEE you, he had a lawyer throughout his contract negotiations so it wasn't that he was doing it by himself.

TheEnglishGent said:

This is not really a fair assessment of the WB years, because he was just as prolific in his side projects as he was in his own back then.

He released albums from The Time, Vanity 6, Apollonia 6, Sheila E., Madhouse, The Family, Carmen Electra . . . and major appearances on various others (Jill Jones, Mazarati, Taja Sevelle, The 3 O'Clock, etc). Let's not forget Manic Monday and Nothing Compares 2 U.

Since WB, we've had side project albums each from Mayte, Chaka Khan, Larry Graham, and Bria Valente.

Also, if you're going to count ONA-Live for Post-WB, you must count The Hits/B-Sides for the WB era.

Se7en said:

I know he did a lot for other people, but I don't know all the details as I've never been overly interested if he's not singing. How many discs do they add up to? It would have to be 15+ to average the same rate of discs per year as post Warner. Then we would have to count all the NPGMC stuff too. I'd still guess that we've had more material per year on average than with Warner.

But like I said, if it's not Prince singing, I'm not that bothered, so we strike NEWS and Xpectation from the list and take 1 disc from the Lotus set. Whatever way you want to cut it, there has been plenty of stuff released. So the original posters question of action is answered. Whatever way you want to cut it, we've had more Prince per year on average, post Warner.

TheEnglishGent said:

If that is true, and I'm not sure that it is, he is just barely releasing more music now than he did on WB. He has been "free" for over ten years but he does not appear to be releasing much more music than he did on WB. Now, of course he is not required to work at anyone's pace but his own but knowing how prolific he is I can't help but be disappointed that he isn't releasing more music. He also made a big deal about the "shackles" that were placed on him while he was on WB but to me he seems to be releasing music at roughly the same pace.

If you factor in studio bootlegs, which have virtually dried up since he left WB, we have had WAY more music during the WB years.
[Edited 7/14/09 4:08am]

rialb said:

Exactly.I never bought into that "I'm-a-slave" nonsense.In the summer of 1992,when he signed that huge contract,he didn't say a word about master recordings or how important it was to him.He,like many other artists,was strictly looking at the dollar signs.He signed a contract that wasn't in his best interests and when that fact finally became clear to him,he suddenly started talking about ownership of masters,being a slave,etc.

You have to wonder,if the 'Love Symbol' CD had been a bigger success (selling 7 million or so) and if Warners hadn't shut down Paisley Park Records,would he have went to war with them? My theory is that,money and ego played a big part.The deal wasn't working out for him so,to save face,he made it seem like it was all Warner's fault.His ego was bruised and he tried to make himself the "victim".

rialb said:

I'm not sure if we got more music during the Warner years,but I do know that things ran much more smoothly during those years.Albums were released with proper promotion,radio airplay,videos,etc.There was more "structure" to his career.His post-Warners career and output has been wildly uneven,imo.

SoulAlive said:

Very true.

The point I was trying to make is that maybe Prince is releasing more music now than when he was on WB but I think most fans expected him to be releasing much more than he is. He's pretty much sticking to the one album per year pace that he had on WB. For fans who have heard literally hundreds of "vault" recordings I think we were hoping to have some of them released as well as more new music.
[Edited 7/14/09 4:41am]

I was just addressing the point that we've seen more action per year on average since Warner than during that period.[/quote]


not true!

the wb years 1978-1992 were perfect: album every year, 3-5 singles, extended versions, b-sides, tour nearly every year, 4 movies, the revolution, lovesexy-band, npg, the time, the family, madhouse, vanity, appolonia, sheila, jill jones.

now there is nothing. last single: fury. last world-tour: one nite alone. last extended version: the greatest romance ever sold (last century). last b-side: united states of division. last top-10-hit: gold (uk 1995).
last record that sold more than 2m: love symbol 1992.

ForbiddenFruit said:

Nice summary!
W/B = Quality and Quantity control
After W/B = Messy and Unsuccessful

A Artist of Prince's calibre should be able to put a single in the top 10 each year with little effort.

Mostly wrong. Huge sales probably would have given Prince more ammo in his dispute with WB, but....



Sort of. Purple Rain saw an obvious spike in his sales. But it is not like not every Prince record sold that well in the USA. He hovered around the platinum mark most of the time.



Prince got his huge contract partly because of his resounding success/sales of Diamonds and Pearls. Which came out in 1991.



Where are you getting this info?




WB wasn't unhappy with Prince until he started bitching and moaning. He was unhappy with them.



Again, his sales in the early 90's were comparable to much of his 80's sales. Look at USA sales of Parade, Lovesexy, even Sign O' the Times wasn't a blockbuster in terms of units sold.





It was about money, but it was like this: WB thought Prince would boost his sales if he put out less material...so they tried to restrict when, where, and how he could release music. THAT is when Prince flipped out about it. Once they tried to put some controls on him, the era began.



Look at how many discs of music Prince has put out since 1996 compared to before. Despite the fact that his new freedom hasn't been the shangri la that some fans were hoping for, he has put out a lot of music in the years following.
[Edited 7/14/09 7:10am]

Dead wrong.

skywalker said:

this topic again. ah well.
first to understand what happened with Prince and WB you have to put it in context of what was going on at the time.

Madonna had just signed a HUGE deal with WB.
Janet had just gotten a huge deal with Virgin.
So Prince wanted to get a bigger deal. In his mind he was a much bigger artist.
So he got what he wanted. He got a ridiculous deal. He even got made a VP at WB and got a SECOND label (which never got launched thank GOD).

And WB got to hang onto Prince, which they wanted. But they weren't STUPID. They built in some safeguards into the deal, one of which being that Prince's albums had to sell a certain amount. So if he went back the Purple Rain numbers, everyone was happy.

Of course, that's not what happened. And it's not like Prince was "flopping". But he wasn't meeting the numbers that were built into the contract that HE SIGNED. Then the real problem started when Prince was getting to the point where he wanted to release more than one album a year. He was wanting to double up, and WB didn't want to float that much advance money out to promote albums that he wasn't recouping.

That's when Prince lost his mind, changed his name, starting writing "slave" on his face and the rest is history.

Exactly.

skywalker said:

But didn't Prince, or his lawyer(s), read the contract that he signed? It's not as if WB snuck in the provision about albums needing to sell a certain amount. To me that is what does not make sense. At the time that Prince signed that deal he was not a naive newcomer. He was a fifteen year showbiz veteran. If he didn't like what was in the contract he did not have to sign it. The fact is he did sign it and I think he looked foolish when shortly thereafter he expected people to feel sorry for him because he was a "slave."

rialb said:

Exactly. Prince screwed himself. His ego got him into a situation where he was in over his head. Which isn't unfamiliar territory for him.

Brilliant musician.
Horrible businessman.