tricky99 said:

So you're suggesting that the deaths in the camps were "good" (i.e. honorable deaths)? And that that makes it better somehow?

Who's being silly?

Genesia said:

U are fixated on the holocaust and thereby missing Prince's point. Prince is not talking about that at all (aside!). He is saying we all die (many have lived and died) but not all of us lived as property thought less then human.

Each supposed incident can be explained away if taken as an individual thing. However, multiple occurrences shows that there is some sort of trend.

Darwintheorgangrinder said:

Translation: "Prince brought up Jews twice, either directly or indirectly. You don't bring up Jews twice if you're not anti-semetic" lol...

Darwintheorgangrinder said:

If u really feel prince hates jews why are u even dealing with him? And the course of the album how many times are anything jewish mentioned? twice?

Genesia said:

Death is better than: being raped everyday, working 4 free everyday, stripped of every shred of human diginity.....for 200 plus years.

Byron said:

right.....

tricky99 said:

The whole "aside" thing...

While I agree with you about why "aside" was used, why bring up the holocaust at ALL if all he wants us to do is ignore it? lol...If Prince had said "Many lived and died" I highly doubt anyone would have "Oh yeah, what about the holocaust?". I don't think Prince was merely putting up a disclaimer, but who knows, maybe he was...

tricky99 said:

I'm fixated on the Holocaust? It's in the lyrics!

Genesia said:

Whatever he's saying it's absolutely ridiculous, inane, offensive, stupid.

JudasLChrist said:

I agree.

JudasLChrist said:

LoL...Doesn't matter what he was saying, whatever it was, it was asinine and stupid

not too concerned about the true meaning, it's one of his best albums to date

Genesia said:

What Tricky meant was, you're fixated on the impression that the ONLY deaths Prince was referring to were deaths that occurred during the holocaust.

Byron said:

But why wouldn't I? He's the one who drew the comparison! :confused:

Genesia said:

But it's possible he wasn't making a comparison, and instead excluding atrocities like the holocaust...thus, the whole "aside" argument. You've dismissed Prince's use of that word as mere laziness...others (like Tricky and myself) think there was more than laziness behind him using it. I'm still up in the air as to exactly why (Tricky apparently is not).

Byron said:

I don't know that he used "aside" out of laziness...it's certainly a possibility, however.

Look, I know you understand what I'm saying. The mere mention of the Holocaust is going to result in comparisons being drawn. If that wasn't Prince's aim, then why bring it up in the first place? Why call out Mr. Rosenbloom, Mr. Pearlman and Mr. Goldstruck?

Genesia said:

He wanted the comparision.....but why is that antisemetic?

Love2tha9s said:

..prince not a philosopher..he is an artist..MERE activity is NOT enough..it must be a finished performance..
.
..whatever he does and he is eager ALWAYS to do anything to which his active hands could be set..is done with technical efficiency and that INFINITE capacity for taking pains which is proverbially-the-mark-of-genius..
..mzsexybaby

tricky99 said:

Wow, you used a straw man argument, very clever. I never said that I feel that Prince hates Jews; that is your straw man. I just wonder why he needs to bring them up at all.

mzkqueen03 said:

...and speaking of inane.

JudasLChrist said:

...inexpensive independence honey..
..a mobile and perennial PLEASURE apparatus...
...a NEW MENTAL FOOD and exercise...
..the old harmonies and symmetrics in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE..
...an added interest to every common scene..
..an occupation for every idle hour..
...an UNCEASING VOYAGE of ENTRANCING DISCOVERY...
.
...these are high prizes...
..mzsexybaby'TAKES ONE..TO KNOW ONE'

Actually, the song starts like that:

"Excuse me sir, what's your family name? (Gershvin)
's not bad
We gon' change your name 2night
Your new name is "Blackburn"
U cool with that? Ehh
What's your name Madame? (Rebecca!)
And what's your last name, Rebecca? ([Shechler])
Ah, we gon' give U a new name 2night, Rebecca - "Outlaw" (Whoo!)
"Rebecca Outlaw""

This - to me - is the song starting as a direct conversation with people pictured as jews, no doubt about that. The tone ("U cool with that?") is implicitly offensive.

"U might say, "what U mad about?"
But U still got your family name
Pleased 2 meet U, Mr. Rosenbloom
I'll be John Blackwell, oh yes, just the same
What's your family name?"

.. is not something leaving to much room for interpretation. It's a fictional dialogue between the protagonist and a jew, the latter saying "what U mad about" (pointing at the Holocaust, and nothing else, cause everything else obviously is nothing to be "mad about"), and getting the response "But U still got your family name." This IS relativizing the Holocaust, and there simply is NO excuse for that, neither politically nor aesthetically...

If anybody would come up and say that black history and centuries of slavery was something "better" than the destruction of Jewish people in Europe, it would be hostile and inacceptable, of course. But if somebody comes up and says it's the other way around, it's exactly the same. Misanthropic and not to be accepted in any way.

My two cents..

FunkyDissCo said:

Genesia said:

The comparisons of black family names and jewish family names, as I've said, was definitely purposeful. Jews actually take great pride in their family names...would be a huge insult for someone jewish to change their name from Goldstein to, say, just Gold. It would be like denying their heritage. Prince was saying that blacks, in contrast, had their heritage stripped from them, don't even know what their real family names are. So yeah, the comparisons were on purpose. Nothing anti-semetic there in doing that.

As for mentioning the holocaust, like I said up above I'm in that grey area that says he used the word "aside" for a reason (and you did hint at it being laziness and merely needing a word that rhymed with "died" lol)...but I also don't quite buy it was simply to say "putting the holocaust aside for a moment"...you don't bring it up to put it aside.

If I were to give an educated guess, I would say that within Prince's own internal dialogue and conversations at the time, a lot of different aspects on life, death, race, God, etc, were brought up, including issues of how jews and blacks are viewed by and large in this country (Prince's views are pretty much U.S.-specific). All of those different topics that he delved into deeply at the time ended up making their way in one form or another into the lyrics of The Rainbow Children...so we get lyrics about the "new translation" of the bible, theocratic orders, the falacy of relying on race to differentiate ourselves, how the injustices of blacks and jews are viewed by the population, the matrix-like hold that the news media has on the public...etc, etc, yadda yadda lol...and all of it dished out in either bits and pieces, or in lengthy wholes, during the album.

So in that scenario, something like the holocaust can come up out of nowhere...at least, out of nowhere to us. Within Prince's thinking, though, it's all interconnected, so it "fits" just fine. Of course that's the result of an artist being overly self-indulgent in creating of a piece of his/her work. I've seen movies that were called "self-indulgent" that featured a BUNCH of "insider" tidbits that only the director would find any relevance in...things that really had zero to do with the movie's storyline or plot. They weren't included to help make the audience understand anything better or to give them a better experience...they were included solely for the director's own personal issues. You get a director who does that TOO much in a movie, and you feel like you're watching someone talk to themselves and laugh at their own private jokes...TRC veers into that area at times.

Byron said:

I am not comparing it to blacks who have been given the names of their slave holders, but many Jewish US citizens did change their names to English names after they had to leave Europe. For example your name was "Grün" and they changed it to "Green".

Byron said:

The black/Jewish name comparison might work (and not be anti-semitic) if it weren't for the fact that a lot of Jews in this country don't have their family names anymore. Many had their names changed for them at Ellis Island (through improper recording or for other reasons). Others changed their own names upon coming to the United States, hoping not to experience the kind of discrimination and persecution they had in Europe. (I used to work with a woman whose ancestors experienced this.)

Again, it is not an apt comparison. But, hey - dude believes in chemtrails. He just makes it easier and easier to blow off the other crap.

FunkyDissCo said:

Sad but true .

FunkyDissCo said:

1) Where, in "Family Name", does Prince suggest that the fictitous "Jew" points to the holocaust?...I don't know if you're black or not, but trust me, comments of "get over it" are severely common to blacks in this country. That lyric of "what u mad about?" could be directed at any large number of Americans, not just Jews. I do understand why someone might think it's ONLY directed at jews since he goes on to compare black family names and jewish family names...and in reality, maybe it is. But it just as easily could be directed at anyone.

2) How did you reach the conclusion that the convos with the two audience members during a concert was meant as a convo with people "pictured as Jews"? lol...

3) How is "U cool with that?" offensive in any way, shape or form?

4) Again, if Prince actually used the word "aside" for a reason (other than laziness), then it's VERY possible he was NOT directly comparing the holocaust to slavery and saying "ours was worse " lol...and again, it's the context and reasons for bringing up a topic that dictates whether or not it should be seen as offensive...not merely bringing up the topic itself. As a black American, I have ZERO problem with someone making a claim that the holocaust was worse than slavery...as long as the context it's brought up in and the reasons for doing so are sound.

And, like it or not, Prince brings up a true (and truly controversial) question: which IS worse, death or slavery? And using his "aside" for a moment, not talking about HOW someone dies...but just the state of death and the state of slavery itself. Hell, you COULD say that it's possible to be a slave and live a comfortable life...just as you COULD say it's possible to die and not have the moment of death itself be painful or full of fear.

Serious said:

That's the thing, though...as you hinted at, there's a HUGELY significant difference between willingly changing your "family name" and yet still knowing what it originally was...and having it stripped from you and losing that heritage forever. It's pretty much apples and oranges.