At what point did the relationship between Prince and his fans turn 2 what I and other preceive 2 be negative? It seems 2 me that once Prince converted 2 a JW was the turning point. That was also about the time when his material got "tamed".

Am I off base here?

Graycap23 said:

1. I don't think it is perceived by all fans as being negative. Certainly not by me...and I consider myself a hardcore Prince fan.

2. I would say the nature of all fan/artist relationships changed with the popularization of the internet.

No, I think you're right. I think the whole JW thing...because it involved a religious conversion that people didn't really understand...is what pushed people over the edge.

I think anyone who's been a Prince fan for a long time really likes - and even identifies with - his weirdness. I mean...the name change was majorly strange, too. But people felt like they could defend it because it was just "Prince being Prince." It was weirdness they liked.

It's harder to reconcile the wild, weird Prince everyone loves and identifies with, with the Prince who would join a extremely rigid and doctrinaire religion. It's as if he rejected part of himself and, in so doing, rejected everyone who embraced that part of him, as well. Seeing Prince do the outrageous things he did was probably the only time the similarly outrageous really felt "okay." And they're mad at him for taking that away.

Personally, I think people should be allowed to grow and evolve as they like. And it could certainly be argued that the part of Prince that could embrace something like the JW faith was really there all along.

Genesia said:

I certainly agree with your point. I guess from my own selfish love of music, the newly formed JW Prince lost his edge with self censorship based on his newly formed beliefs.

Prince started doing more interviews and Celebrations once he became a JW. I do think that he has ALLOWED more CONTACT with his Fans then ever before in the past such as allowing fans onstage to Dance,however as a FAN one CANNOT become THAT CLOSE 2 PRINCE and NOW with his JEHOVAH WITNESS CONVERSION it makes it OUT OF REACH if YOU DON'T BELIEVE as he DOES. I think he will push some Fans away FOREVER as THEY CANNOT FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS and just GIVE UP TRYING 2 HAVE ANY CONNECTION BEYOND listening to his MUSIC or going to a CONCERT. One CANNOT TRY to ACTUALLY have a PHYSICAL FRIENDSHIP WITh HIM. That is TOTALLY a FANTASY.

There R many factors...

The internet 4 one.

It is a complex discussion about a complex artist.

The irony is that Prince is so musically and sonically evolved, and his general fan base is largely musically ignorant.

U don't see 2 many threads about Prince's harmonic choices, key signatures, and his one of a kind vocal harmonies. There has NEVER been anyone with such an acute harmonic grasp and bold "execution", with regard 2 his vocal harmonies.

He takes chances with his musical choices, and makes them work.

ALSO... he has set the bar so high, with his prolific and diverse output, it eventually became inevitable that his fan base would split up, with equally diverse opinions and tastes.

Yeah... There is no other artist in any form that gets as much criticism from their "supporters" as Prince.

Perhaps Prince was onto something when he started referring 2 some fans as "friends". But they seem far 2 few these days.

Also... I don't get the criticism 4 his spiritual path of choice. I've known, and been friends with, people from many faiths... Muslim, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Buddist, etc. I never judge anyone by their choice of their own spiritual path.

Giovanni777 said:

Good point about the Net. We had no real way 2 gauge the balance of positive/negative without the Net.

Giovanni777 said:

But...but...it's Larry's fault!

Another consideration is this: How much of Prince's fanbase do websites like the org actually consist of?

I really feel that this is a hardcore/niche place here. Don't get me wrong this is THE Prince fan site on the net, but Prince is a global superstar. What percentage of his fans across the world frequent this place?

I ask this question, because one could get a skewed view on his fans if just looking at prince.org or any fan website for that matter....
[Edited 5/19/09 9:29am]

skywalker said:

Very valid q.

Giovanni777 said:

That is NOT what this is.

There were a few things that sent the relationship sour.

First, the JW thing did not, and does not, sit well with fans. For many reasons, but it just doesn't. Prince has always believed in God, but when that started to dictate his music, it was like he was back tracking on himself. Not that God shouldn't play a part in your life as a whole but JW's are a different breed of folks.

Second, Prince started suing his fans. When he went after people for displaying pictures of him or whatever, using the lame argument that "People see my face and think I've endorsed that site, and I haven't, it's misleading." Yeah Prince, cuz all people are THAT stupid. Do artists endorse tribute bands? Probably not officially, but the artist understands it. Prince once stated he "understood the fan's need" for bootleg music (which is why he said he tried to clean up the market a bit with Crystal Ball). Why can he not understand the "fan's need" if they wish to put up a tribute website, or offer information about the artist? Prince's own sites haven't really offered a lot of information about him, or even discussion. And the times there was a chat room, it was heavily moderated, and people got pissed off.

Prince preached about freedom and equality for decades, then he became a turncoat by trying to stifle fan's creativity, output, energy, and efforts. And he's still doing it. The woman who got a slap from Prince because her kid was dancing to "Let's Go Crazy" is a prime example. How does THAT keep Prince from making even more money off Purple Rain? He wants to get his share from Purple Rain? Get involved. Re-release it with the bonus and extended stuff we all know is there.

Prince has turned his back on his fanbase, robbed them of monies over and over (I think there are still some folks who never got their BRRR! jacket from 1997/1998) by promising "lifetime memberships" to sites for upwards of $100, but little did the fans know it meant the life of the website, not THEIR lifetime. And now with the economy failing he's asking people to pay $77 for a website that has offered little more tangible than a t-shirt, and some tickets for those local to Los Angeles for some concerts. The other stuff: 3 albums (which are available in Target in truckloads for 1/6 of the cost, so if they pay for the site AND the Target version, they've paid $89 for the same thing, TWICE), and some videos. He's all but crippled anything on YouTube, yet refuses to release any past comprehensive DVD with videos.

Those are a few reasons why the relationship went sour. I wish it hadn't, but fans can only work with what Prince gives them. And when he's pulling Londell out of obscurity (Londell is based in my town, his office is right downtown. I've been in that office for other reasons) to bitch slap the very people that put him where he is (sitting on 1000 thread count sheets, drinking champagne from a glass with chocolate handles) there's a problem. How many times have we all bought an album more than once? We've lost it, it's been played to the point of not being playable anymore or whatever. He's still getting those checks with our money in tow, to keep his little Paisley Park open and running; a shrine to his ego.

Honestly, I love Prince, but I don't like the way he's treated his fans in the past 10 years. I will continue to download bootlegs, videos, whatever I can get my hands on (and I have most of the things from the Lotus site already, and what I haven't had before...I do now, and NOT because I paid $77 to WATCH it; I've downloaded the stuff and now have it on a DVD for myself). I will until Prince again "understands a fan's need".

Giovanni777 said:

That's partly my point. I think there are as many people who latched onto Prince's visual performance and the raunchiness of his lyrics as there are who really appreciated and understood the music.

Of course, there are people who feel he's lost a step musically, too. But I think you could make a case that, among those for whom the music has always been the most important thing, there has been less anger and attrition.

Genesia said:

Lol.....Don't get me started on Larry.

Hmm...good question. It seems it did anger many fans when he turned JW. I sometimes think the void some fans are missing from Prince is a void they're missing in their own lives, that they actually think Prince can give them. Whether it's through his music or some type of sexual fantasy Prince may have stirred in them, based on how he presented himself on stage, during his performances in the early part of his career.

People change, they grow mentally and spiritually with age and some fans are having a hard time with Prince doing that. It's like they don't want him to grow spiritually or mentally, but instead rather that he remains the same to satisfy their void(s). Just my two cents.
[Edited 5/19/09 10:11am]

Giovanni777 said:

And as an example, ,I bet you've never judged them because despite possible conversations you've had with them about their religious choices, they've never tried to shove it down your throat like Prince has.

I remember a certain Revolution member telling me about talking to Morris Hayes once, and asked why Hayes left Prince's band. In short, Hayes said "It was the Jehovah's Witness thing." So I wonder if Hayes has succumbed to all things Kingdom Hall, or Prince just realizes Morris is one of the best keyboardists he's ever had and couldn't do without him.

Haven't there always been stories about him being rude, not signing autographs, requesting people not look him in the eyes, etc?

I think he was very personable at the soundchecks during the 'One Nite Alone' shows.

I just don't think that he gives people what they think he needs to, and that's the problem.

That, and his 'attacks' on the fansites.

His relationship with fans has always been weird-he loves to hate us. It has nothing to do with his choice of religion. That's his choice and I can respect that, but he has always treated his fans terrible Sorry P, but it's true.

It is what it is with Prince....Do you REALLY think he believes he has a relationship with us?
Never a dull moment being a Prince fan, nothing should surprise us anymore.
All of us choose to be here, choose to go for the 'ride'... no one is forcing us to stay.

I have a very strange relationship with his music...its an addiction and a love that I don't think I will/can ever give up. I dont really complain much because again, I choose to stay a loyal hardcore fan. I choose to go through the bullsh**....

For me, there is always three chains of gold after I weather the storm.....

Good point. Prince always had the reputation of being a dick. I would argue that his relationship towards his fans did open up in many ways. Soundchecks, opening up Paisley Park for The Celebrations, $7 Paisley Park parties/concerts (sometimes free). Many of these "fan friendly" steps are overlooked or painted with bad intentions. However, I think he is much more accessible to his fans now than he was in the 80's.

ernestsewell said:

u do realize that people were put off with prince's spirtual messages during lovesexy right?

..if it ever went bad..it was because the fans were doing WAY-MORE-TAKING then giving..and NOBODY wants 2 b taken advantage of..
..mzsexybaby

2elijah said:

the first round of cease & desist in 1997/1998. that's what did it for me and many, many others.

not only did it turn negative ever since, he lost a LOT of fans with that. imagine how many people might be flooding this forum (hell, how many forums there would be out there), if not for that. and the second go around.

amorbella said:

I'm with you on that 100%. It's a CHOICE to be here. It's a CHOICE to continue to be a fan of his, through the thick and the thin. There are many things that Prince has done over the years that I haven't liked but for me, the positive outweighs the negatives. I am here for the music and the man behind the music who fascinated me when I was a child and who still fascinates me well into adulthood. I'd love for him to do things differently but I want people I know personally to do things differently too. That's life for you. I just want Prince to keep dropping new music and to come to NYC again so that I can go to another show and I better be in the front row again too! That's all.

OK, re: the JW conversion.

It bothered me personally because Prince became a fake, a fraud and a bad facsimilie of his true self. You could tell this from the way he approached his own music, his past and his career.

The only true expression, to me, is The Rainbow Children but then you still have him singing selaciously about women in most of his post JW material. Which is natural, obviously, but he could never perform most of his JW material in a Hall without censoring himself and then what is the point? That certainly shows he isn't even true to his declared faith.

I am a fan of Me'Shell N'Degeocello from the beginning. When she dropped Peace Beyond Passion, she is questioning and challenging Christianity like crazy. Having been raised in the Christian faith, and finding myself asking all the same questions as posed on Peace Beyond Passion, I felt an extreme sense of kinship because the territory was intimately familiar.

On Cookie, reading the liner notes, she experesses a new found faith in Islam and I can't lie here but I felt a very real sense of betrayal. After stewing on that feeling for a while, I came to realize that how could I question her conversion when I, like her, do not believe in my former faith? How could I expect her not to move on? I did.

I continued to keep an open mind to her conversion and listen to the music. Instead of clutching onto rigidity and strict ideals, she continued to be the person I always knew her to be. Expressing herself truly in the way she felt about love, politics, god and even though she still used suggestive language (like Prince still does) and sang about intimacy and sexuality (like Prince still does), she never tried to create a false image to make herself look better on the surface. She continued to be human and it showed in her music. Prince is fake and it shows in his.

errant said:

That he learned NOTHING from the first round is sickening. He didn't lose me then because I did not get burned and I was still new to the net but that seed to not accept him at face value and to question his motives was planted and now that seed is an entire forest.

nurseV said:

I doubt he "loves to hate" his fans. If that was the case, he could have stopped performing years ago, not invite fans to paisley park, not invite fans to his soundchecks, not allow some fans to get into his shows by collaborating with some of the unofficial sites where there has been some controversy with a few of them, but his team still worked with them in the past and held contests so some fans can win free entry to some of his shows. Not to mention "allowed" 3 fans into his house recently to see him perform and get first glance at his current website.

So although some may find him "difficult" at times, what would you do if you are constantly criticized no matter what you do to please your fans? He can only be who he is, not change to satisfy every fan's wants and needs. He is who is. He can't be the one in the wrong all the time now can he? Problem is, there's just some fans that will never understand that no artist can please every single fan. You have the personal choice of continuing to be a fan or not, you really think artists will change who they are as individuals just to please a fan? I thought it was all about the music, not what color underwear they are wearing, who they're sleeping with, what color socks they put on, what kind of toothpaste they use, how many calories they ate yesterday or this morning, etc., Carry on.
[Edited 5/19/09 13:06pm]

purplecam said: