My, haven't I ended up in a lot of arguments on the .org during the past couple of days. Oh well, let's tackle this one too:

midnightmover said:

Oh, really.



To answer your last question first: yes, I have listened to many Joni Mictchell and John Lennon albums. They were to me far much more enjoyable than any Eminem record I have heard. Their "narcissism" didn't deal with people being subjected constantly to references to their own family members and the way they experience fame on almost every track they've released. It is possible to even listen to "How Do You Sleep" - Lennon's most blatant attack on Paul McCartney - without its obvious referential frame as it can still be interpreted in various ways. Also please get back to that Joni Mitchell reference when Eminem has made a record with the same type of understated personal content and the same artistic merits as, say, "Mingus".

To focus a bit more on the question formulated as "Don't you know that nearly all artists invariably write about themselves and their experiences in some way?":you can't expect people to agree with you just by throwing around a hopeless abstraction like this that is not only void of any real content (one can really only answer "yes" to it), but in itself this validates neither describes nothing particularly interesting on how we perceive cultural works. "All artists invariably write about themselves and their experiences in some way" has no argumentative content to it, as this expression "in some way" is so abstract that it says nothing of the mechanisms involved. So what's the point of all of these question aimed at me exactly?

The level of inclusion of obvious personal real world experiences in anyone's lyrical output varies from artist to artist and one artwork to another, so it's not just some plain historically incongingent factor that validates the artistic value of just about any piece just due to a simplistic statement according to which the entire cultural phenomenon could be said to be characterized by the fact that artists tend to often employ real world experience as material for their work (which varies considerably). Furthermore, there is a difference between being "inspired by" and making direct references on the level of the content, so they hardly even fall into the same category as means of artistic expression without posing further problems. On the more practical level though, once the inclusion of biographic elements becomes too apparent and too frequent, it effectively tends to give a rather egoist impression on the musical artist for many listeners. So don't come cry us about it if some people don't find that as an unquestionable proof of Eminem's brilliance. By the way, most music that I listen to personally does not even have lyrics, so I find that reasoning of yours rather hard to relate to even from the outset.

During the last 10 years there has been a tendency in popular culture to attribute "depth" as something that invariably has something to do with real world experiences and these rather young artists wanting to tell us "how they truly feel" and "what I've truly gone through in my life". It's all about just "me, me, me" / "ain't I special?" to these folks. Eminem's lyrics don't often come out as much else than the rhymed equivalent of what we are subjected to in reality shows, where people are exposing some of their intimate matters in detail on as large audiences as possible (this is seen as desirable as long as they manage to also entertain the audiences). It's also another question are they really as honest about it as they'd like us to think they are? But, oh wait, the exaggeration in the song context is exactly the artistic input in these people's minds.

Most artists who know how to write lyrics in a more understated way usually employ a sufficient amount of room for personal interpretation to keep the listener him / herself interested in the interpretation process - whereas with Eminem what there is usually left are simply identificatory interests towards the actual person portrayed in those lyrics. In this way I guess Eminem probably exemplifies the current cultural frame quite well.

The first question addressed to me, "Where have you been?", I shall leave unanswered even if it violates my own ideals of systematically tackling each question usually addressed at me and that intends to challenge my own views.




Yes, that's terribly interesting. A song made by a celebrity about the nature of celebrity - now isn't that the true nature of hiphop.




How well an artist manages to convey an impression of something being believable and engaging in the mind of the observer of a piece of art is not a "point" that one can "miss". Please don't accuse me of missing a point if there is no such a thing.



Thanks for this detailed analysis, it must have taken you some time to write this and subject us to this insight you think is a key element in your effort to convince those that disagree that Eminem is a great and a serious artist. Unfortunately, you are not managing to inform anything with this description that anyone who has heard the track 1-3 times could not be able to tell just by listening to it. Offering interpretations on art should preferably offer new viewpoints for them to be of any interest at all.

I can be especially appreciative of your instruction for listening "to how the true nature of Stan's twisted psyche is slowly manifested until it finally explodes in the third verse". How perceiving of you - how could you let us not become aware of this very interesting and hard to notice detail of Eminem's "Stan" until now?




No, this has nothing to do with what I have expressed before. I have myself pointed out that a repeated chorus sung by a female vocalist is one distinctive factor that is usually characteristic of the tracks made by hiphop artists aimed towards the mainstream audience and effectively usually reducing it as simple pop music in the end. Granted, we've also had the similar element appearing on some tracks performed by those hiphop artists who haven't exactly operated in the mainstream, but the main appeal on their target audiences does not rely on the included melodic choruses (hiphop / "rap" -music should be able to survive without the obligatory melodic chorus element as well in its proper context). Their landmark works are not characterized by the inclusion of the obligatory easy-listening choruses since there is, well, no real need to desperately appeal to the widest possible audience as is the case with artists like Eminem, who also rely on public recognition for their artistic works to be relevant at all.




Well, yes. That could be seen exactly as one of the reasons why he is not really a respected figure in the hiphop circles. The Vibe magazine is not that terribly respected in those hiphop circles where the folks actually listen to decent records.

You're mostly making your references here to pop music and its validation practices here. What is "respected in the hiphop circles" does not really come down to votes on some mainstream magazine.



I listed several hiphop acts in my above posts and none of them to my knowledge are European. If you've never heard an Anticon record in your life - or think that the people operating within that collective are European - I'd strongly suggest you'd keep your mouth shut about someone being "out of touch".

Of course, trying to prove that I'd possess a whole lot of knowledge on what is relevant or not in hiphop is not a terribly important personal matter to me. To you it seems to be, unfortunately, you've failed quite considerably in that by just making references to some basic TOP40 material.




That is probably one of the most quotable things I've read on this forum in a while, but carry on, you're giving a really informative impression of yourself by all of these comments.




I have to mention that ridiculous metaphorical expression doesn't mean anything in the context that it is usually used in. So please avoid attaching it to a context where you are trying to attribute "guilt" to another person.

I'm just kidding here, though. Oh, no I'm not actually. Perhaps you should take a course on basic argumentation.




No, "in this" I am not "like them". There are usually huge differencies between the artistic forms Prince and Eminem employ in their works.

I have heard about 50% of Eminem's works by the way, so this criticism doesn't really apply in that sense either - I guess you could say that I've genuinely tried to like him at one point, but decided I was not going to able to fool myself into listening his rather uninteresting personal drama delivered with his nasal voice. I simply just don't like his "flow" either, which is to say I am rather skeptic if he even has one. Some might not agree with me on this issue though.
[Edited 5/20/09 8:06am]

Damn, that's a long winded ass post!

Well, debating on the internet whether someone / something is "brilliant" or "shit" is a serious matter.

Understandable.

bonnie184 said:

Did you send nasty, random Orgnotes to them too because they don't love your beloved rapper clown known as Feminem? Child.

novabrkr said:

Wow! Have you ever heard the term "windbag"? Well, you just embodied it with this post. You just missed virtually every point and used a load of pretentious gibberish to try and cover up that fact. The whole "narcissism" point is a total red herring. What matters is the skill, not the subject matter. What made Eminem great was not his "realness", but his skill! You've obviously decided not to see it.

And the reason I summed up "Stan" for you is because, frankly, the ignorance of your earlier description of the song showed that you had clearly not heard it properly. It's like someone calling "Purple Rain" a throwaway novelty song. It's a description that simply bears no relation to the thing supposedly being described. Therefore, you needed to have your attention drawn to the details because you clearly did not hear it properly.

And a word of advice. Less is more. Please learn to abbreviate your posts in future. Concision is one of the hallmarks of great writing. For a lesson on that I suggest you listen to some more Eminem.

KidaDynamite said:

For real. I think it was intended to avoid argument because who the hell's gonna have the time to break down all that bullshit? Certainly not me. I have a life.

midnightmover said:

Thank you for this crucial advice in life.

Except for the long part after the second quote lifted from you my answers to you weren't considerably longer than what you had written yourself. When you accuse someone of inconsistency and "missing a point" you have to at least try to specify what the other person has missed. If I have "missed virtually every point" please specify which ones those are - the only problem here is that you didn't have any other points than subjective opinions based on your pop music listening habits.

"If the only rappers you know of are European ones then it's no wonder you're so out of touch." -comment really just proved that you had absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Your "detailed" description of "Stan" was just plain ridiculous, by the way. Thank you, I enjoyed it a lot.

ernestsewell said:

Your being quite nasty actually. I was just sending a private message to let you know that.
It's all good...I shouldn't have said anything. I just thought Prince fans had a better appreciation/respect for talented musicians, whether you like them or not.

bonnie184 said:

I don't need you to school me and "let me know" anything, Sean. And no you shouldn't have sent it. You made it PERSONAL, when someone disagreed with your beloved boy rapper. Do you treat people around you, in your life, the same when they say they hate Prince? Do you tell them their middle name is ignorant? I wonder...do you think my middle is ignorant? Because I don't have a middle name, just an initial. Yeah, no period behind it, but just a letter, like Harry S Truman. So is having just a letter ignorant? Is that what you mean? Cuz I KNOW what my middle name is so you stating what YOU think it is seems rather irrelevant at this point, doesn't it? I've yet to meet someone who actually HAS the middle name of "Ignorant", so I KNOW you're not going THERE with me, are ya, buddy?

When I see a talent musician, not a loop master hovered over ProTools cutting and pasting a beat 40 times for a 5 minute tirade on Mother Teresa or Salvador Dali, I always give props to them. Just because I'm a Prince fan doesn't mean I owe any respect or allegiance to a bumbling idiot like Marshall Mathers, a guy who, apparently besides the song "Stan", can't make a decent song without mentioning murder, drugs, violence, and spitting hatred, all while KNOWING 12-17 year olds are listening to him talk about "there's bodies all over the floor....I guess I must have killed them". Rather dismissive of your idol, isn't it? "Oh, too bad. I guess I murdered these people....oh well. WHO WANTS CHOWDER?!"

THEN you drop me, or block me, from your twitter. You know that one....the one where you post videos of Prince for the masses. Remember, like The Tonight Show video from LotusFlower, or the brilliantly capture 4:3 squished imagery and performance from The Ellen Show a couple of weeks ago. THAT Twitter account. Yeah, woe is me for not being able to follow your sorry ass. OH WAIT, YOU FOLLOWED ME FIRST, based on making a Prince tweet a month ago.

Sounds like a whole lot of nonsense over some white boy with a record contract, doesn't it? Yep. Thought so.

MF'er.

Perhaps it just really is our fault that we miss the point entirely on how skilled he is.

ernestsewell said:

You message me that i'm "random and ignored" by you but then this.
Your very passionate person, just relax and take a deep breath.
I hurt your feelings, i'm sorry.
Your middle name rant is humorous and confusing.
You can follow me if you want on Twitter and i'm sorry i stopped following you long ago.
4:3, lol. The files are for viewing on an ipod/iphone, and they look beautiful. After posting tons of material from his new website and live performances.
I'm sorry you were unhappy with the quality of one file i posted. I will work on that for you.

You just seem ignorant in saying Eminem was irrelevant.
Anyways, I am more of a Dr.Dre fan and that is why I listen to Em. But his lyrical wordplay is brilliant at times.

I'm really sorry dude. I was wrong for calling you ignorant.
You can have the last word now.

Since when does being a Prince fan mean we have to like/respect/appreciate someone like Eminem? And why does it make us "close-minded" if we don't like Eminem? I find him boring and predictable...a one-trick pony who's been doing the same thing for years now.

relapse slim shady

mwilli said:

He did on the "Without Me" video

I really, really enjoy Prince's music. I really, really enjoy Eminem's music.





































Saying that, I am now bracing for the inevitable verbal fist-fucking to commence. Be gentle. I've pre-lubed to save a little time.

"Eminem is the most relevent artist of this decade"



So what? Beyonce is very relevent in this decade too.Does that mean we have to bow down and kiss her feet too?

SoulAlive said:

i think there are a lot of touchy people on here, p has kind of lost it as a recording artist, and eminem kinda still has it.

squirrelgrease said:

novabrkr said:

Dude, stop kidding yourself. Your post was at least twice as long as mine. Anyone can see that.

I decided not to go through your post point by point because it would simply take too long, and clearing up people's misunderstandings can be a tiresome activity when the misunderstandings are so plentiful.

As for the underground rappers you mentioned, I admit I've never heard of them. The names made me think they were European. My mistake. One thing I know though is that if you, with your clueless sensibility, are praising them, then they're not acts I'm in any hurry to check out.

SoulAlive said:

You're quoting me there, and obviously didn't read the post properly. I was responding to the ignorance of some orgers who said he was "irrelevant". In fact, the opposite is true. He is the most relevant artist of this decade. No one is saying Prince fans have to like Eminem. But it is rather disappointing to see how blinkered so many of them are.
[Edited 5/21/09 8:42am]

Twice as long? I thought it was more than that. I might be losing my edge here.

Dear, subjective opinions you've formed in your head are not "points" that everybody should agree on or that could be "misunderstood". Other people can freely attempt to tackle the same issues from their own perspectives, regardless of whether you'd wish the conversation to exclusively circle around concepts that you'd find acceptable to tackle yourself - like that or not. Since you are also without hindrances using trite expressions such as "judging a book by its covers" or "red herring" when trying to prove a point of another person's "clueless sensibility", I have to say I don't find it a least bit surprising that you would describe the lyrical content of something like "Stan" as "brilliant" and "storytelling at its best".

The fact that you failed to recognize even one of those names that are actually revered in the "hiphop circles" speaks volumes. So please don't continue to pretend to have much authority to tell us what kind of hiphop artists we should respect for their "skills". Also the comment about European hiphop was completely "ignorant - as you Americans would put it. Have you ever listened to a single record by a revered European hiphop artist in order to be able to make this statement?

Call me crazy, but after listening to this track in particular I wouldn't find it that odd that not everyone is going to find this guy's musical output as pure brilliance. Maybe the fault lies on us.

Wow! We can now add deviousness to pretentiousness in your list of character flaws. Eminem, like Prince, is not as good as he used to be. It is extremely dishonest to pick out individual recent tracks to dismiss someone's entire career. That's like dismissing Prince entirely on the basis of Planet Earth and completely ignoring Purple Rain and Sign O' The Times. Flat-out devious. (By the way, that doesn't mean I'm saying Em is in P's league. I'm just using P to illustrate my point).

Just goes to show you have no real interest in being objective. You are merely trying to rationalize your prejudice.

I'm perfectly fine with those last sentences.

Also I'm pretty sure you should be a bit more careful using the word "pretentious" when you've been shown to know next to nothing of the genre of music you're attempting to discuss and to claim to have more knowledge of than the rest of .orgers. Now, I don't even claim to know much of hiphop music - why do you know less than me about it?

Actually, I have myself no problems being called "pretentious" either. I am pretentious, I know that perfectly well.

[edit: minor spellcheck and an instance of name-calling removed]
[Edited 5/21/09 12:33pm]

I stopped listening to new hip hop about 6 years ago. Eminem was the last rapper who really impressed me. You seem to be making great hay over a couple of underground artists I didn't know. No doubt as a smokescreen to cover your own wrong-headed arguments. Glad you agreed with the last sentence of my post though, since it underpins the entire discussion and proves I've been right all along. In fact, since you had no problem with it, I'll repeat it..... You are merely rationalizing your prejudice. And with that, we can wrap up this discussion. You get the last word.

that's all i'm gonna say

midnightmover said:

L4OATheOriginal said:

OH GOD NO!