From a Village Voice interview with Pet Shop Boys, on working with new producers on their new quite brilliant album Yes - neatly sums up why Prince has not been able to develop much and is repeating himself more than most artists do. Prince's ego (read low self-esteem) couldn't take comments like those below. Am I too harsh? Or is it close to the bone?


From Village Voice:
Both Boys emphasize the value of outside perspective, even after nearly 30 years of expert record-making. "You need someone to tell you, 'That drum sound is rubbish,' " says Tennant, "or, 'That's a good idea, but you're going at it for too long and it's getting quite boring.' "

"It's not belittling at all," Lowe adds cheerfully. "We're all aiming for the same thing: to make the best pop record we can."

pernil said:

Wendy recently said in a Girl Bros interview that if Prince asked her to produce an album for him, she'd do it in a "NYC minute". Lisa said she would add more acoustic and raw things to the album (which reminded me of things like "Sometimes It Snows in April").

Someone should have been telling Prince "that drum sound is rubbish" about 10 years ago when NPS came out and Kirk J. was given WAY too much power over pushing buttons.

Hell, I'd love to hear Robert "Mutt" Lange, Bob Rock, Rick Rubin, etc produce a few rock tracks for him. THAT would be a great rock album. (Prime example...instead of him covering Shania's song, Mutt should have produced a duet between the two of them, how fucking excellent that would have been back then.)

I think Prince thinks a list of producers on his record would make HIM look cheap and invalid to the public. "Oh he can't handle it anymore, so he needed others to come in and help him." BS. He believes his own celebrity about "you're brilliant". Yes, Prince can do everything in the studio, but does he HAVE to? LETITGO.

Sorry, I don't agree.

Prince has developed, and continues 2 develop. It's one of the most unique things about Prince and his music. Not only has there never been anyone as prolific, but most other musical artists succumb 2 "repeating themselves" and reach a point where they don't progress, and they do these things fairly quickly.

'Lotusflow3r' shows a well-developed musician/composer, still willing 2 take chances, and also shows a hunger. This album could stand up 2 any Prince album, if listened 2 with a fresh perspective.

Musically, there's plenty of new directions on 'Lotusflow3r'. He's intentionally channeling Hendrix and the Band of Gypsies/Experience, while clearly remaining Prince. In "77 Beverly Park", he uses melodies he's NEVER used before, and effectively, and well "executed".
[Edited 4/29/09 11:41am]

ernestsewell said:

I love the idea of Prince working with outside producers, but I strongly disagree with two of your choices: keep Mutt Lange and Bob Rock FAR way from Prince please!

I agree with your assessment of why it won't happen though: for 30 years Prince's schtick has been that it's all him. There's no way his ego will allow him to go someone else now.

Giovanni777 said:

He ain't channeling anyone except a ghost of his previous self. And even that apparition is moving to the light.

Prolific means he just plays a lot of shit that no one wants to hear. He's not developed much in the past 10 years. Put MPLSound or 3121 in a mix with NPS or Rave, and there's little difference in content, musicality, or arrangement.

Of course I disagree. I read somewhere that he as early as 1988 realized he could not write stuff that was as original or effortlessly "inspired" as he had earlier, as he to a much larger extent began listening to his own stuff, including unreleased material, to borrow from himself or rework stuff. This happens to all artists and it's rare that they have more than 10 years or truly inspired, original music. Prince had a long run and considering how much amazing material he gave away to others he most definitely has been one of the most prolific artists in pop music. To say that Prince is NOT repeating himself takes a great deal of subjectivity Bowie once said that every artist is basically writing one song and dealing with one theme, which he/she is repeating variations of throughout their careers. That's a harsher but perhaps also more realistic perspective on this.

Giovanni777 said:

You're deluding yourself. Prince has fallen prey to exactly the same thing you suggest other artists succumb too. I think he's still capable of turning out good music, but to suggest that there's very much "new" about his recent output is just plain silly.

To quibble even further, I'd argue that there's not much about Lotus Flower that displays a "well-developed composer". Many of the tracks are clearly the product of jam sessions, and like much of his recent work, he couldn't be bothered to develop those ideas into fully formed songs.

Lastly, there are plenty of artists who are just as, if not more prolific than Prince. Bob Pollard and Ryan Adams spring to mind immediately, and there are plenty more.

.
[Edited 1/1/10 16:58pm]

mzkqueen03 said:

Another one posting from the nuthouse. Do you and Tame share a room?

ernestsewell said:

Speak for yourself... there are loads of people who will still part with hard earned cash to listen to his new music...



Granted its hard to buy his current CD outside of the USA non 'fans' who have heard me playing the CD went HMV and had every intention of parting with the exorbitant £29 for the triple album

I only found out when they came back to tell me that the CD was on hold!!

.
[Edited 1/1/10 16:58pm]

mzkqueen03 said:

Say's the chick who's racked up nearly 2000 posts in a year. Your obsession is frightening.

And did you seriously just call me a scrub? What year are you living in?

Giovanni777 said:

I agree with you about LotusFlow3r!!!! But I do wish Prince had some more people in his life to tell him how wack some of his concepts and lyrics are. "I gotta box of chocolates that'll knock the sox off any girl..." REALLY? And a video for THAT?

...i had chocolate while in car runnin away from the po-pos...




I have to make a concious effort to be comical...

Giovanni777 said:

i agree with this.

Imo, i prefer the new Prince. He's in a much better place, i hardly venture back now...i'm celebrating the new glory.

TwiliteKid said:

Giovanni777 said:

Written so well I'm speechless. Thanks. Couldn't have done it better.

Giovanni777 said:

you're welcome to that opinion...but I can hardly believe you think that if you took away the element of Prince. Any other musician you'd see it. I've got artists no one had heard on on my iTunes that I listen to more than this album. Truth be told it's the first cd I gave away. It's pretty much awful.It doesn't stand at ALL with his older music. Not that I care, but you mentioned it. Pointless jams, way too loud hack drums. REally nothing interesting even on it's own. Sure- a few tracks are ok. But I prefer better than ok. Guy still plays great, my critique is with love. I think he is still good at what he does, but he needs to learn that art created in a vacuum.....sucks
He needs input folks. From trusted ears. Not yes people.

Giovanni777 said:

I preface the following with the fact that I love Lotusflow3r and I reaaaally love MPLsOUND, but to say he has developed and continues to develop is not all true. His philosophy and personal views seem to have shifted and developed over the years moreso, but musically, you only give half the story. True "77 Beverly Park" sounds different than stuff he has put out, but I challenge you to play "The Morning After" from Lotus (2009), "So Far, So Pleased" from Rave (1999), and "Damned If I Do" from Emancipation (1996) in any particular order, and you have the same song set to different lyrics.

I can say the same about "Satisfied", "On The Couch", "Insatiable", play them side by side (in chronological order if you'd like) and you have a songwriter saying the same thing musically and thematically with hardly any "development" as you say Gio777. Not that the theme "Getting a girls pants off" is a bad thing (and no one says that better than P)

Now mind you, I love the new albums and will play them in my car, on my Mac, and in my office a LOT, but I gotta speak my purple mind.

Don't get mad, I am only being real.

It really doesn't matter if anyone agrees or disagrees. His records over the past 15 years or so are proof enough that he isn't taking leads from anyone. If he wasn't so full of himself he might actually be able to record 3 records worth of great music as opposed to 2.5 records of crap and .5 worth of better crap.

.
[Edited 1/1/10 16:59pm]

Yeah, and I hate the fact that people here always assume that a producer would be musically inferior to Prince.

I still think Marcus Miller, Jonatha Brooke and even Steve Lilywhite and Jon Brion would do some amazing things with Prince in the studio.

TwiliteKid said:

BINGO!

mzkqueen03 said:

Drugs are bad. Very, very bad. Unless prescribed by a doctor. Those drugs are GOOD, mmkay?

pernil said:

They need to qualify these statements so that they're just talking from their own experience. I am like Prince that way - if you want to tell me how to improve the sound of a track or song, feel free, but if you tell me "that's rubbish" or anything even close to it, then you'll get the hand in the face in a New York Minute. The Simon Cowell school of critiquing is not even close to where I am or ever have been. Constructive criticism only, please!

ernestsewell said:

I can see why Wendy producing Prince would NOT, I repeat, NOT be a good idea. W&L's sound, as much as I dig it, is their sound. Their sound and Prince's sound are different. When Prince was with W&L, it was a "Prince-Wendy-Lisa" sound. This is why I wouldn't let anyone else produce me, and why I wouldn't produce anyone else. If they're doing a Prince record, Prince would no doubt want to be the final voice heard. Just like you wouldn't let anyone fill in colors on a painting after or before you're through painting it, the same applies to making music, which is very much like painting.

eaglebear4839 said:

You have to think outside of the box. Wendy and Lisa aren't stupid. They know Prince, very well, and know what he'd do and not do and what he'd be open to. That album wouldn't come out sounding like Eroica or something.

TwiliteKid said:

NO! You mentioned Bob Pollard! NO!!!!! The Ohio curse continues to follow me!!!

As for Bob, he's prolific as hell, but I don't think he's all that great. I think his best days are LONG gone. Ryan Adams is still quite good, but I haven't followed him in years. If we're going to discuss people that are prolific and continue to produce good material, I think Elvis Costello could be mentioned, as well as Dylan (although I haven't followed him in a while and, unlike many, I don't love every note he plays) or even Paul McCartney (he's in the same boat as Dylan as far as I'm concerned).

I'm glad I'm not the only one disappointed with the Lotusflower trilogy. For all the hype about the old school sound of MPLSound, it was an enormous letdown. I've said for years that I think Prince needs a producer of sorts. Not necessarily watching his sessions, but helping him package his music. Someone needs to be there and manage quality control. If we had someone like that we'd probably get more older, unreleased material and better new albums. I really thought he was back in good shape when 3121 came out, but as soon as he goes back to the DIY esthetic, it all stops dead in it's tracks all over again.

This is proof that everyone hears music differently. I love the Lotusflow3r set and Prince did the damn thing with the CD's but I would not mind seeing Prince work with a producer. It's not important to me that he has one but it would be a nice change of pace to hear what he could do under someone else's direction. If it never happens, then that's fine, just as long as I'm still enjoying the CD he makes but if he does work with a Rick Ruben or even Wendy and Lisa, it had better be enjoyable too.

WetDream said:

Me either. I don't play my old Prince stuff much because I really like what Prince is doing right now. I think it adds to the legacy and makes the whole experience that much more fun and enjoyable.