bleutuna said:[quote]

bboy87 said:

I get what you're saying, but if there's a thread about it, even though it's closed, shouldn't all the info be in that closed thread? We just made a joke about it. No harm done

That's what we do here

BUT when you made this statement:


Well, I'd wager that Prince probably freaked the asexual Michael Jackson out on many levels. Talent wise, obviously, but just the raw sexuality that Prince drips (particularly at that time) couldn't have been comfortable. Not to say they didn't have conversations, I know they obviously did over the years, what with the whole Bad thing.

Plus, Michael probably had some delusions he was a better artist, and for a few minutes there, history agreed with him. That quickly changed though, and now it's pretty clear who's playing top and who's playing bottom :p

This was second reason many of us in this thread said it was beating a dead horse. You got 2 great performers, one who's been performing since he was 12(Prince) and one who's been performing since he was 5(Michael) and had been in the spotlight

Can you expand on the "few minutes" and "that changed quickly" parts because if I remember correctly, when Prince was starting to get true mainstream attention with "1999", Michael had been a star for at least 12 years and had released at least 20 albums as a solo artist and as part of J5
Michael was veteran by the time Prince released For You
[Edited 1/22/09 2:19am]

bleutuna said:

bboy87 said:[quote]

bleutuna said:

Well, I'd say that if I said something that you felt needed further discussion, then that alone is validation for bringing this topic back up :p

"A few minutes..." referred the relatively brief period of time where Michael Jackson was actually, truly considered to be the most gifted and talented performer/musician in the world. Everyone knows he performed when he was a child, but being part of the Jackson 5 and being Michael Jackson are two very different things. Otherwise, why didn't he just stick with his group?

Michael was THE God of the 80s. It's undeniable. Even in the 90s, Dangerous sold ridiculously well. But the sheen faded from Michael because he was unable to adapt as a musician, and that's what the 'few minutes' refers to. In the scheme of these two guys lives, their musical career - one is still making headlines for his music, and in retrospect - people may love Michael Jackson, but no one in their right mind would dare say he's a better SINGER or MUSICIAN than Prince.

History has shown Prince to be the victor in their battle, even if that battle was just one fabricated in the minds of the fanbase. Though, I don't think it was.

Oh, and as for why people continually think Michael and Prince don't like each other - it was probably cemented in the Moonwalker video when Bubbles is wearing the Prince t-shirt. While this was funny, and probably tongue-in-cheek, there was some truth to it.

Anyway, if you think we're beating a dead horse, then stop posting here, and let people chit chat about it. Someone else posted this video just a few days ago, having never seen it themselves.

There will always be people who haven't seen it. So when they post, ignore the thread because you've already talked about it and let them chat. It doesn't hurt anything. Space on an internet message forum isn't particularly scarce :p

Michael Jackson is and was not THE god of the 80's nor were MJ and Prince having a battle.

bleutuna said:[quote]

bboy87 said:

Maybe that clip in Moonwalker was a joke and like Luv4u said, there was no battle between the two, just some hyped up "rivalry" in the media, considering:

1.They had dinner at Michael's house before
2.Michael visited Prince at the studio when P was recording Sign o' The Times and played ping pong
3.Although Prince didn't record Bad, he DID send Michael "Would You Love To Love Me" for the album
4.Prince went to see Michael on his Bad Tour and P has performed The Way You Make Me Feel, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, and Billie Jean during his concerts and soundchecks
5.Prince confronted a mutual aquaintance when she made some comments about her relationship with Michael and said she sold MJ out to the tabloids
6.Prince has called Michael a genius and Michael has called Prince brilliant

and although Prince IS the better musician, Many people will say that Michael is in fact the better singer.

I think you keep missing the fact that we basically MAKING A JOKE about you beating a dead horse. This is the org and we do it all the time.
[Edited 1/22/09 14:00pm]

Okay, I'll concede your points there wasn't a rivalry. I can't refute what you just posted, so consider me schooled and educated appropriately.

But, it's not even debatable whether Prince is a better singer than MJ. That's not even up for debate.
[Edited 1/22/09 14:10pm]
[Edited 1/22/09 14:13pm]

bleutuna said:

I've taken voice classes because my college major is music and I see it the other way around. While they both have awesome voices, Michael has a range that not many male singers naturally have. His vocal trainer said before he reached vocal maturity as an adult, a range of 3 and 8/12 octaves and it grew to 4 octaves in the 90s through the gain of lower notes

I've only heard him sing high.

The myths about Michael Jackson are laughable. Like his ability to draw. I remember those supposed Jackson illustrations in the HIStory booklet. Then I opened up my LP of thriller and saw those and laughed to myself.

He's also only had a few surgeries, remember? His own doctors attest to it. People will attest to anything, given enough money.

Prince's ability to sing well LOW and sing well HIGH, is what makes him a better singer. It's not about octaves in the slightest.

Case in point: I can't see MJ ever being able to do something like 'Damn U.' Prince knows his voice and how to use it. Which is what makes it effective.
[Edited 1/22/09 14:47pm]

bboy87 said:

which was why I said this:

JayJai said:

meanin, I'm not targetin u particularly

I found this quote from a singing teacher, and find it oddly appropriate for this thread's new direction:

The best dancers don't have the biggest feet, nor do the greatest singers have the highest or lowest voices.

Well freakin' said.

http://anuptempoandaballa...-myth.html

Prince said himself there wasn't a rivalry between them. I don't believe they did either. They weren't stepping on eachothers toes. Not neither of them getting in the way of the other. They both have/had respect for eachother as performers and musicians.

bleutuna said:

About the drawings, here are some that he's done:





About the surgeries, I'm not going there because we're talking about the music

Michael's singing abilities:

By the way what ever happen to that picture of Mike reading a newspaper or something about Prince and there was a big picture of Prince on the article he was reading. The pic dated around the time the JB concert, 1983. Might be 82. The Prince pic looks like the 1999 era. Anybody got it, or even remember??

Rinluv said:

that newspaper pic is from late 1984 when Michael was on the Victory Tour and P had just released Purple Rain

what are the sources for that info? i mean no offense, i assure you, but i would have to read that myself to believe half of it.

In the interest of love, peace and chicken grease I will apologize for my 'jackass' comment.

However, all of the above comment was exactly the same thing that I was trying to say in the first place. It's a hassle being an old school message boarder and having noobs come along only to bring up the same shit that's been discussed a million times in the past. It comes with the territory though.

RinLuv, I've seen these videos. Maybe you're under the impression that I don't know Michael's music? The opposite, actually.

"Butterflies" is in fact one of my favorite songs...period. Had that been the single off Invincible, I think the album would have done much, much better.

But Butterflies is one of the few songs where Michael has that kind of control, where he uses his voice, and even in that - you hear his upper register (it's rocking), but nothing of the lower. At all.

However, the control he had on his voice in Butterflies reminds me very much of Prince, actually. He's using it like an instrument - and not with the "chks" and the "eeheeeees" he usually uses. That day in the studio was probably one of the best days he's had in years. It's definitely one of the best songs he's had since Bad.

I could link you the a capella versions of Earth Song or Black or White to prove *my* point.

Prince's ability as a singer, and what makes him a better singer, isn't his octave range, it's his ability to use his voice. Michael's voice rarely shows enough variety, Butterflies being one of the TRULY great exceptions.

And he needs to get a handle on that vibrato. Seriously.

Oh, and you kinda' proved my point with the drawings :p
[Edited 1/22/09 16:03pm]

methodcal said:

#1 has been mentioned in several bios about Michael
#2 is mentioned in DMSR
#3 is also mentioned in DMSR and in "The Vault"
#4 was mentioned in a couple of articles when Michael opened the US leg of the Bad tour in New York
#5 was in Tatiana Thumbtzen's book "The Way He Made Me Feel
#6 was from an interview Prince had with Tom Joyner and Michael's comment was from a old Prince site when Michael was on the HIStory tour and the site creator asked him

bleutuna said:

What? How can U compare some clearly time-consuming drawings to the quick sketches in Thriller? I've seen several of MJ's illustrations, and I know he's an excellent drawer. His mother inspired him to start drawing as a child, and Diana Ross introduced him to painting in '69....

MJ in 1972:



Besides, most artists/cartoonists improve their skill if they continue practicing as they grow older. I love to draw cartoons, and my drawings are much better now than they were when I was little. The same can be said for Michael.

bleutuna said:

There's that word "better" again. Oh well, that's your opinion. On a side note, I'd love to hear Prince attempt to sing "Liberian Girl." That would be hot if he could do it as well without using falsetto.

bboy87 said:

So then a certain element of it is based on speculation or second hand information it seems. I was curious about that. I've always doubted that there was any real rivalry, but I've also always felt that MJ was scared of Prince. Yin and Yang stay separate for a reson. Very interesting stuff though. Think I'm gonna do digging in the vault tonight.

bleutuna said:

I don't think anyone expects Michael Jackson to be a first class illustrator. He's good, but's he's not great

About the acapella versions of Earth Song and Black or White
Michael has this thing to align his interpretation to how the song is expressed or being played. Earth Song has a "vulernable" feel, so Michael's vocal take is

Black Or White's vocal take was a scratch vocal

I can't tell you about octaves and whatnot, but i CAN tell you about art. Without a doubt.

I have a BFA from the Savannah College of Art and Design, have won numerous awards for sculpture, drawing, graphic design, and film.

So, in that area, I'm an expert.

Michael's work shows *no* consistency. At all. Look at the Chaplin image versus the ridiculously amazing stippled drawing of the little boy in the corner.

Talent is talent, and style is style when it comes to art. He didn't do the HIStory images, I'm sorry. The difference in quality is astounding, as well as style, technique, and understanding of the human form and clothing.

bleutuna said:

Can it be a change of direction? Considering the Chaplin drawing was done when he was 19 and the HIStory drawing was when he was in his mid 30s?

I need to look into who exactly did the Childhood drawing

It's more than a change of direction.

Is it possible for someone who has a LOT of talent to be able to do something like that? Sure, it is, and yes, 20 years is a lot of time to do so. But Michael would have had to be working pretty much non-stop on his art skills, and even his childhood work when he was 19 would have shown more accuracy.

The guy can doodle sort of cute things. I'm not sure why he'd put his name on those stippled drawings.

bleutuna said:

I don't know about the Childhood one, but the Scream one was by Helnwein,

I think he put the lyrics and his name there were to convey that particular message, and since they are his lyrics, he simply put his name there

bleutuna said:

Not necessarily. And how do U know he didn't draw very often throughout the years? That '77 Chaplin was done in charcoal on paper, and looks pretty accurate to me, and shows more experience than his level of skill as a little boy. The "Childhood" drawing looks like it's graphite pencil and was done 17 years later, and I believe he was much better at drawing by then anyway.

Here's the picture in clearer resolution:


And in comparison to the Helnwein drawing, Michael signed his initials next to his lyrics, but did not sign his name to the bottom right of the portrait. On "Childhood" however, he signs his initials next to the lyrics, and his signature to the right of the drawing....

As another example, here's a MJ drawing that shows his improved skill in profile pictures:

Oh snap....i wanna see this!!! Orgnote?

simple mutha fucka was high as a kite

IAintTheOne said:

muthafucka is one word. stop splitting it apart, dammit!

IAintTheOne said:

I don't think he was high, I think he wanted to impress James Brown his idol, however he knew he did not pull it off like he wanted. The prop was simply too light and he accidently bumped into it. Oops!