Hmmmm....
[Edited 8/28/08 21:44pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Are you guys reading from the same playbook?...lol...Because you r killing me here...First of all, why do you keep suggesting that folks are saying that Prince was the first to use synthesizers or drum machines? No one said such a thing...

And yes, Cameo was indeed using synths on Knights..., just like other bands in all music genres from pop, R&B and rock...But it wasn't until Alligator Women (1982) that Cameo totally stripped down their sound and injected the new wave elements that Prince was already using in 1980...and they especially were not using the synth to the point where the only traditional instrument on some tracks was a bass guitar until on the She's Strange album...The sound Prince started to utilize on Dirty Mind, the first Time album and Controversy had a huge effect on R&B bands and black radio...This has been noted in books and various interviews...nothing new...

BlaqueKnight said:

Ah, there u go again...Okay, let's say this in caps: NO ONE EVER SAID FUNK ACTS DIDN'T USE SYNTHS IN THE PRODUCTION...there, breath and and let's get down the business...

The Bar=Kays indeed were one of the earlier users of the synths much in the same way funk acts were using it...But something happened by the early '80s after Prince started to re-work his sound by 1980...as one Bar-kays bio noted:

"While listening to "Freaky Behavior" on the radio in 1981, you probably noticed those guitar riffs Prince had just introduced and dug the new-wave punk-funk influence you associated with Rick James. Yet, even if the DJ didn't announce the record, you instantly knew that this was the new Bar-Kays' jam."

In other words, when the Bar-Kays started to do say "Freakshow on The Dancefloor" by 1983, their spare, mostly synth and drum machine (waaaay different from the mere usage of synth as an instrument alongside drums, horns, bass, guitar and piano)was on a whole different page sound wise...And I think Prince had a lot to do with that...And we all know the great Rick James didn't just start Street Songs' punk funk sound out in a vaccum...Dirty Mind had a huge hand in songs like "Superfreak"...

BlaqueKnight said:

i loove it...turn the clear levelheaded folks on this site into the fanbots...lol...That way u take away all credibility...Only one problem...i'm not that dude...And u should know I'm not that dude as long as I've been on this site...Hell, I've even gone at it with some hardcore Prince fans on this site...and I never had to dismiss them as nutjobs...I just use the facts...

The "Prince invented music" shit is lazy as all hell...lol...Yes, it's easy to laugh at some of the folks that drown in the purple Kool-aid...But u also need to know not when to lazily play that card like u seem to be doing...Just weak, homie

BlaqueKnight said:

Do you work at Fox news? You r pretty good as flipping from the issue at hand...That Prince had a huge impact on funk and black music in the early '80s...That the way he used synths and drum machines to the degree he did effected a lot of the bands that were struggling to keep funk alive...Now, how does this get turned into Prince is the King of all music?....Only in your wacked out mind it does...lol

BlaqueKnight said:

It amazes me how ignorant y'all are about that first Time album, an album that outsold Dirty Mind for a reason...Because a LOT OF BLACK FOLKS BOUGHT IT...Black radio was all over that record...And by the time Controversy hit (the same year as that Time album, btw) R&B acts were starting to switch up their sound...Now this was before the whole "Minneapolis sound" that would become popular after Purple Rain...What I'm talking about is the black music community...they were up on Prince's sound waaay before the mainstream....and the fact that it was new sound made a lot of acts copp his sound...

BlaqueKnight said:

Nope...I've shouted out Rick's role throughout in my posts...But of course, you probably stopped reading aft5er the first line...As for MJ, he was more on line with the GREAT traditional R&B until "Billie Jean" when he put a heavy emphasis on the bassline...But no one ever put MJ in the category of funk anyway...So that's why MJ was never brought up...

I thought u would at least understand that...

BlaqueKnight said:

I'm not going to repeat my primary points...I brought up Zapp way up top in this thread so maybe u need to keep up...

Listen, I get it....You have made it your business to be the kill joy around here...U r the one that pushes a dose of reality into the mix of the Fams...And at times i agree with some of your posts...U clearheaded folks for the most part...But I think on this one you are trying way too hard...No one here is saying Prince is King of music; the God of Funk; the God of country, jazz, or Gregorian Chants...

This whole thread started because someone said Prince's funk was a joke...And then that same person said Prince had no impact on the early '80s funk and R&B...And both charges are just revisionist history...Get it?

Bottom line: Prince had a huge impact on R&B and funk and had cats switching up their sound...Now is such ideas blasphermous? No...

Unless u r trying to make something out of nothing...

BTW, this is fun...lol
[Edited 8/28/08 22:07pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

who, me? I don't think I was making an excuse for prince, I said he does a lot of different styles of music

But also, I don't think his peers are funk artists, they're pop superstars & creative artistic types. So if you compare him to most of his peers, I do think he's very funky.
[Edited 8/28/08 22:27pm]

NDRU said:

I agree with you. Although I think his peers changed when he started to experiment more with his music but overall, I'd say you're right.
That's why I don't see why its such a big deal when someone says Prince is not the "funkiest" or has not mastered funk but rather he dabbled for the most part and was funky at times.

Murph. I'm not going to take you line-by-line because I'm not interested in devoting that much energy into this. I disagree with you. You are reaching on the Prince influence in that time period. I'll overlook your attempts at being condescending as you being annoyed that I disagree with you but you're really stretching it and it sounds like you may have been in a "Prince vacuum" for quite a while with all of the spin you are putting on Prince's influence. This whole thread started about Prince's role in funk being overstated. It is. I certainly never said he didn't have funky songs and I didn't say that he hasn't influenced a musical era. I disagree that he had the impact that you are claiming during the time you are claiming. Sorry. You are wrong.
Bottom line: Seems like Prince had a huge impact on YOU and what YOU were listening to. You, in turn have interpreted that to be a bigger influence and spanning across a greater time period than what actually was. Prince was POPULAR and back then(83-86). When a sound is POPULAR, every label wants to sell it. That had more of an impact on sounds changing than anything but you are still overstating. Lots of creative musicians were experimenting with synth sounds. It didn't all stem from Minneapolis, and certainly not from the stuff Prince was doing in 80-81.

[Edited 8/28/08 23:48pm]

L4OATheOriginal said:

Freddy....note:
Out of that whole list, the only song he has a problem with is September.
That means that there is some sort of acceptance to my list of "arguable" funk songs.

ButterscotchPimp said:

That's the point i was making earlier. Why is it U refuse to accept that Prince has anything to do with funk because he does not sound like the funk U like, and instead of keeping an open mind (which U have not) U ARGUE.
As far as Prince being labled a Funk God or Keeper of the Funk: Never heard of such claims, but at least admit that he has funk songs. U can't say that George Clinton is funk, but Scarlett Pussy is not. U can't say JB is funk, but Sexy MF is not. U just contradict yourself when U do, in a way that exposes U'r NEED 2 argue & be hated.

ButterscotchPimp said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Have U not noticed the orchastration of earlier funk songs? Have your heard the Horns? Murph is correct in what he said about the influence Prince created. He didn't Create Funk.....God knows it, but he did change the way funk was played. Where did the horns go? Oh! They became synths!
Where did the orchastra go? Oh! They became synths!
It may be time 2 take BSP's dick out U'r mouth so U can READ every word in someone's post so that U can understand a little better. Didn't they teach U that in school?
The biggest clue that None 'o y'all know shit about funk is the absence of Funkenstein's defense....except for his September issue.

Open U'r hearts, Open U'r Minds! A train is leaving all Day!

ok..
I write this before I have read the threads of today. I am 17(or so) hours ahead, so I tend to post a few hours after everything has dies down for the day.
If some of you have been thinking.. everytime I think its over, that chick who don't know shit post something and it starts all over again. If that's the case... deal with it (I was going to apologise, but I changed my mind)

Anyway, i have noticed a pattern.. and its interesting in itself.. and kind of funny

1.I have noticed that the firsts posts on this thread each day are to complain that it still lives and ppleading for the rest of us to let it die...

(a tip... if you want something to die, you have to let it...this incredible thing happens when you post... the thread goes to the top, more people read it, more people post)

2. then we get half a page to a page of bickering and its true "a pissing contest" would be a fair description.
(BP, I would reccomend you ignore it... then they can have their last word if they want it, and the interesting discussion can start

3. murph and a few others must log on late, because they have a life or a late night or whatever a make a few posts that are interesting, thought provoking measured arguments about funk and prince and their evidence about who influenced who. sometime names get dropped, bands are recommended, albums mentioned that i have not heard of

(this is why i keep reading, because i have a parliament album and jb and sly and fankadelic albums... i don't really know much about funk, and I like to learn. I also like to list artists and albums I would like to add to my collection)

4. BP either mistakes these cats for idiots or disagrees... sometimes with strong language (although not always). Sometimes, he counters with a decent argument, sometimes he just says nuh.. which pissis people off in category 1 and 2 and starts the cycle all over again

5. one or two people join the thread and go over some old ground. take it easy on these guys... even if they have read the whole thread, they probably forgot what it was about

SO... while categories 1 and 2 can be entertaining... this thread is long, it isn't dying (no matter how much you ant it to)... so lets just skip those tomorrow and concentrate on 3 and 5 (4 will probably be greatly improved without the whining/scent marking of 1/2). Where we move the discussion forward...

if you are pissed because your own thread is being ignored as a consequence.. deal with it.. (I have had to on more than one occassion... which is fine, they were probably stupid).


oky doky... I'm going back to see what i have missed

BlaqueKnight said:

But isn't that the point to some degree? Being influential isn't just about experimenting - you can be as avant-garde as you like, but you're not going to have any influence if no-one has ever heard of you. Prince was highly influential because he managed to be experimental AND hugely popular at the same time. That's really unusual. Some artists are experimental. Some artists are popular. Very few manage to be both. But Prince was, for a short while at least.

Great post, by the way. It's nice to see a popular thread that is actually about MUSIC for a change, and not Prince's wardrobe or latest legal shenanigans.

ok,
pretty much the usual pattern. A little more depth in the middle from some a couple of guys sitting on both sides. A little unnecessary agression from blackknight (chill babes), and the usual whiney posts from others with nothing to add and another attack on a new contributer.

nice to see the discussion evolving though(for anyone a little behind.. they have moved on to discussing whether or not Prince shook things up between 80 and 83 for funk artists)


I think I could be murph on this..
If prince had a sound that was identifiable beyond his use of synths and the linn, I'd be suprised if that sound was picked up by other artists with him having an influence.

What BP and BK are suggesting would be called "convergent evolution" in biology (believers in genesis... block your ears... now)

This is when unrelated animals develop a similar trait in order to exploit a similar niche... like gliders... you get gliding possums and gliding lizards.. looks and acts the same, but has come about independently from one another.

The thing is in nature, this is rare.. and nature has lots to work with.

In music.... well, the conditions aren't nearly as favourable.. there are only so many niches for one (audiences).. and how can anything really evolve independently of what is out there already.

Ok.. Prince was not in the mainstream, but he was being played on the black radio stations (BP you said yourself mojo had been spinning his stuff early on)
before PR at least...and surely someone was going to his DM tours (I heard them screaming)...

So, if he was out there, how can you be certain that he didn't have an influence on other funk acts? I know you've said it has been denied.. but maybe they were just being cool and didn't want people to think they were gay or something...

Ok.. I realise I've started getting a little silly.. (I don't have facts and inside knowledge to back up my argument... sue me)..

On the other hand.... (and I guess this is why this is a debate and not "BP and Murphs little book of funk facts")

I did try to apply evolution (linnaen classification specifically) to sort out Prince as a genre.. and quickly figured out that it would never work because there is too much cross-breeding happening between musical genres at multiple levels... country with jazz, jazz with rock, jazz with funk etc etc.

With all that cross breeding going on (where did all that psychedelic funk stuff come from anyway?)..... how can you be certain that these funk acts were solely influenced by Prince and not all the new wave they were listening to in chicago/detroit?

.... me? I lean towards the idea that he gave funk a kick up the ass. If Prince/the time and new wave was indeed floating around the radio airwaves at the same time, I suspect that they would have been more likely to prick up they're ears if Prince was played... it may not have been funk, but it was funky.. and closer to what they knew.

The thing is though... to say that is to say that these other funk acts would be more likely to be influenced by another r&b act, over new wave/rock etc... is suggesting that they were not open to other types of music...

could this be true?

(damn.. this is a stupidly long post from someone who hasn't heard of any of these acts that you mention- sorry, the problem is my fence sitting.....I have to work on my record store wish list now)
[Edited 8/29/08 4:50am]

robinesque said:

Not bad for a 17-year-old...props....

robinesque said:

I thought your anlogy was flavors!

But i dig the evolution anlogy better because it fits better.
I loved early Prince records because they did sound diffrent that anything else out there, and i was listening to everything BP and BK have mentioned, papa Prince had a brand new bag, nothing sounded like Contoversy!, it sounded new and fresh. everybody bp and bk have mentioned, the Bar-Kays et-all tho funky, were sounding old fashioned.
And just like the other cats before him, Prince is sounding a little old fashioned now to some of us older folk, you can never get a high as good as the first time.
*I hear someone coming, i must blow out this candle and head back to the convent, hurry
[Edited 8/29/08 5:54am]

I can agree with this post somewhat. I mean, Prince IS capable of getting down with the funk. I think that we have some real proof of this. I would have to say though, that he's certainly not as funky as many would make him out to be. I'd say that with Prince, rock, pop and soul are the musical styles in which he is best at, more so than funk. And his greatest album(according to most people that is), 'Purple Rain', barely has any hint of funk in it, if any at all. It does contain all the styles that he's best at doing(rock, pop and soul). And if you listen to his first 2 albums, they really have more of a disco influenced sound to them, rather than funk, especially on 'For You'. Both of these albums also have their fair share of rock and soul numbers on them as well. The albums that directly followed these two, had a lot of New Wave influences within them, again, more so than funk.

So I agree with this post that Prince is definitely not, first and foremost, a funk artist. Like I said before, he is much more of a rock, pop and soul man than he is funk.
[Edited 8/29/08 6:04am]

BlaqueKnight said:

That condescending tone u hear may have something to do with u dismissing anyone that disagrees with you with some clarity as a fanbot...Practice what u preach homie....

BlaqueKnight said:

LOL...now this is laughable....U really have no idea how this whole thing started...but let me remind u...

Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously.

And again, dude's whole back up for this statement was what his funk budies said about the Midget's funk...So when that fell off, he quickly brought up some of the fanbot element that thinks Grafitti Bridge is Citizen Kane...This bait and switch tactic is week because I don't know too many folks on this site that calls Prince a "Funk Master"

BlaqueKnight said:

I think I've made my point throughout this thread...I've given the evolution of Funk/R&B sound in the early '80s; I've made it a point to post bios of some acts thatb allude to Prince's influence on the evolution of the funk of the early '80s...It's not about what I was listening to...it's about making a point without going to the lazy cliches as u seem to be going to..

BlaqueKnight said:

This to me proves either u were not around during this time or u underestimate Prince's influence on the black music industry....This popularity that you speak of is moot when talking about Prince from 80-82...Because to the black community Prince was very popular...I'm not talking about 1999 or Purple Rain popularity...I'm talking about Dirty Mind becoming an underground sensation because of the black music community championing "Uptown" and "Head"...I'm talking about the Time going gold just off of black radio alone and fans alone; Controversy going gold off of black radio alone...

This is the influence I'm speaking of....U need to stop thinking in terms of mass appeal being the only gatekeeper for influence...The black music scene often times has a hand as being the first wave of the new sound coming to prominence...A huge example is New Jack Swing....Early on Keith Sweat's debut album was the talk of the black music scene...And it went double platinum strongly off of black music buyers, not the pop music scene...Bands suddenly started copying the sound..The same with the first Guy album .And this was all before Bobby Brown's huge pop takeover of Don't Be Cruel...

Bottom line: u guys are dancing around the issues and using lazy "Fanbots" name calling to put every comment under the same banner...But i think if you go to any music site most folks would agree that Prince's impact on funk was huge...Huge to the point that acts changed their sound...For the life of me, I don't see how this equals Prince being "king of the funk.."

But I guess that's the way to sidestep whats at the heart of this debate....
[Edited 8/29/08 8:08am]

PoorGoo813 said:

do u think that song is funky?

lol, BK BP, you gave it a shot,.... but murph has put you guys to bed, tucked you in and even kissed you goodnigh!
and all without your bitterness and all too easy name-calling.
passion is one thing, but you guys take it to another level, take some notes on how murph put you guys in your place for next time,
.....no bp your not the most hated person on the org, no one hates on you,...i like your gusto, the most childish,...maybe bk alway runs out of his meds

goodnight!
[Edited 8/29/08 6:53am]

PurpleJam said:

You bring up an interesting point: Prince's biggest,most acclaimed album 'Purple Rain',doesn't really have alot of funk on it.That album is mostly rock and pop.This may be why some of the hardcore funk fans don't see Prince as a true funkster.If it's not gritty,hardcore,sweaty funk,they see it as watered down,crossover stuff.I have a close friend who feels this way! He would agree with everything that Butterscotchpimp is saying.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Dayum!! Some people are taking this personal.

PoorGoo813 said:

Again, because i don't agree with you or your take I'M arguing. Prince doesn't have much to do with the "funk" because in my opinion HE DOESN'T. Yet ya'll keep coming in here wanting to "change my mind" and discuss the matter. So we can discuss this as long as ya'll want to, or the Org allows us to. But i'm not going to "admit he has funk songs" when the majority of the stuff ya'll think are funk songs AREN'T. I've mentioned the songs that i thought were CLOSE. And i can say that George is funk and Scarlet Pussy isn't. And i am saying that JB is funk and Sexy MF is NOT. At least you're paying attention.

robinesque said:

As always Robin, you are the voice of reason here. Thank you.

robinesque said:

And you hit it here.





That's my point exactly. NOT TO MENTION, as BK pointed out now there's this revisionist thing going where Prince was WAY more influential than he actually was. Prince was getting "some" airplay on black radio from 80-82, but he was FAR from the #1 act on urban radio. Yeah, Mojo loved him and championed him in Detroit, but depending on where you lived in the country you did hear that much. Houston was another little hotbed for Prince at the time. But again, that was closer to '82 and AGAIN the change in music to a more new wave sound was already underway.

As a matter of fact, i know Prince hit #1 on the soul charts with "I Wanna Be Your Lover" in '79 but i don't think he even charted again until "Little Red Corvette"? He was getting booed off of the stage for opening for the Stones, and Rick James was kicking his ass on tour in what '81? So how is it that Prince back then was this "influence" on r&b and funk? If anyone was in influence on the genre in '80-'82 it was RICK not Prince.

I am going to do something I NEVER do on here, I am going to take back something I said earlier. I had said that I think the thread should die because I felt that all the points that needed to be made were made already but somehow or another, this thread has gone in yet another direction that I didn't think it would go and damnit if it isn't interesting. I was wrong. I don't have anymore to add to the discussion but it'll be interesting to see where this thread goes next.
[Edited 8/29/08 7:15am]

PurpleJam said:

See? We agree!

BlaqueKnight said:

Jumping in here to back up my man BK, because we're exactly on the same page as far as what Murph is trying to say. Not saying that Prince didn't have a HUGE influence on music, just disagreeing with the time frame that you're proposing. '83 - '86? Definately. '80 - '82? No! So i think you're giving Prince credit for something that was happening already. And like BK said, we can try (i guess) to go blow by blow with certain artists and match up years if you want but the bottom line is (as Robin pointed out) you can't prove that Prince had this "influence" anymore than i can probably "disprove" it. So we can agree to disagree or get all "Google-y" with artists and dates. I got time today as my fantasy football league draft is today. Up to you.

ButterscotchPimp said:

So apparently discussing this is a HUGE problem for some people! I guess now i have to keep my eye out for a frilly shirt looking KAK who's going to ambush me while singing "Dolphin". Yikes.[/quote]

[Name calling snip - luv4u]. There was no threat in any of those messages. All the negative shit you're getting your brought on yourself. You saw this mess coming in the very first post.

[Snip - luv4u]

ButterscotchPimp said:

this whole argument can b settled very easily. ur saying that this whole entire thread is based on YOUR opinion on what others think is funky and YOU don't. okay that is very simply put as well I can say what's funky 2 me and not YOU.

however, i would b curious 4 u 2 list the songs in prince's career that you deem funky or embedded in funk.

murph said:[quote]

BlaqueKnight said:

That condescending tone u hear may have something to do with u dismissing anyone that disagrees with you with some clarity as a fanbot...Practive what u preach homie....



LOL...now this is laughable....U really have no idea how this whole thing started...but let me remind u...

Prince isn't that "funky". Not in the purest definition of the genre. Sure he likes to throw the word around, but in the PUREST sense of the genre he's not even taken that seriously.

And again, dude's whole back up for this statement was what his funk budies said about the Midget's funk...So when that fell off, he quickly brought up some of the fanbot element that thinks Grafitti Bridge is Citizen Kane...This bait and switch tactic is week because I don't know too many folks on this site that calls Prince a "Funk Master"

BlaqueKnight said:[quote]Bottom line: Seems like Prince had a huge impact on YOU and what YOU were listening to.


This is how the thread started.





WE KNOW. And where have i backed off from that? I've admitted over and over again, while the initial statement is worded somewhat harshly, i find it to be TRUE! 23 freaking pages later of me saying the same shit over and over again, and ya'll keep accusing me of changing my position! I'm starting to feel like Obama! IN THE PURIST DEFINITION OF THE GENRE HE'S NOT TAKEN THAT SERIOUSLY AND ISN'T THAT "FUNKY". It's like ya'll are capable of only reading the last part of that sentence and completely ignore the first part!

And i don't use fanbot, i prefer KAK (and i'm considering trademarking it) (just kidding). And i don't think i've accused YOU of being one, but it could've happened. But then again, you've e-slapped me in the face with "you must not have listened to too much funk and r&b in '80 - '82 and in my mind that's WORSE. So.....

And again, now here YOU are doing what you keep accusing me of and that's talking down to someone that doesn't agree with what you're saying and basically saying well you must not have been around or listening back then.

I laid down (VERY SPECIFICALLY MIND YOU) how i WAS around and certainly listening and i'm saying that YOU'RE WRONG and OVER-STATING Prince's importance relevance in the black community in '80- '82. Yeah he was selling records, but he wasn't even topping the r&b charts during those years. In certain markets (like Detroit) he was popular but it wasn't by any means a national thing even in the black community. Some stations wouldn't play his stuff because at the time there was a huge "Prince worships the devil" thing going around (and i'd forgotten about that, but remember getting into arguments about it back then).

Hell the top 5 albums of '81 (i just looked them up) were as follows:

#1 Rick James - Street Songs
#2 Stevie Wonder - Hotter Than July
#3 The Gap Band - III
#4 Smokey Robinson - Being With You
#5 Grover Washington, Jr. - Limelight

Top 5 of '80:

#1 Michael Jackson - Off The Wall
#2 The Whispers - The Whispers
#3 Kool and the Gang - Ladies Night
#4 Isley Brothers - Go All The Way
#5 Jermaine Jackson - Let's Get Serious

and just for shits and giggles '82:
#1 Earth Wind and Fire - Raise
#2 Gap Band IV
#3 Aretha Franklin - Jump To It
#4 Bobby Womack - The Poet
#5 Skyy - Skyy Line

Now. Where's this "sweeping influence"? And if you examine closely I see this. It was already happening. Now in '80, disco was still on the way outs which i think reflects on the chart. But looking at 1981, you have the Gap Band, Rick James and Stevie Wonder who were already going where the music trend was headed. Away from disco and towards new wave/synths and drum machines. Especially the Gap Band. Look at "Burn Rubber" and "Humpin". Both of those songs were HUGE in '81. Synth driven, sparse and funky as hell. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Prince did that? Skyy with "Call Me".

I'll wait.

savvy said:

Awww, Saavy! Was that you org-noting me? A pal of yours? Again, I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE. Don't care if NONE of ya'll like me. I'm going to keep speaking my mind and making my case. And i'm certainly not sweating e-insults on a Prince fansite. C'mon. Come correct, now.