rolling said: Depends what you are talking about if your pulling one off the process if far more interesting than the product.
walk with crooked shoes www.myspace/syblepurplelishous | |
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Genesia said: Haystack said: I would personally say that it depends at what point you discover the works-in-progress.
If you're looking retrospectively, then I think it's okay. You got to experience the finished product first and, in Prince's case, listened to it before you got to hear how he got there. You heard it first exactly how he wanted you to hear it. Hearing alternative versions after is fascinating, but won't take away from the official release (and for the most part, will add or embellish them). With very few exceptions, for the most part I've been disappointed with a final product after hearing the unreleased/obscure version(s) beforehand. Guitar is a good case in point. The Feb 07 version came across as quirky and as whimsical as he was back in 1986 with the Revolution. The fact that the song had little guitar in it was almost like Prince playing a joke on us. Now, I like the album version of Guitar, but it sounded very pedestrian when compared to the quirk of the previous internet release. Likewise, when I heard that We Can Funk and Joy In Repetition were going to appear on Graffiti Bridge, I jumped with joy. However, the sensual '86 version of We Can Funk was replaced with a version apparently based on the '83 recording which I haven't heard. And for Joy In Repetition to lose the 'slow' intro for its official release was hugely disappointing for me, given that for me, that intro sets up the atmosphere of the song much better. So for me, I'd rather not see the artist's sketches until I've been able to see, and fully appreciate the finished artwork. That said, when Prince's 'sketches' have been offered to me on a plate before his presentation, I can't help but take a good look. But more often than not, I'll wish I'd waited until after. I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that glimpsing the process in retrospect is better than seeing it "in process." Maybe that's what Prince was getting at with the cookie dough analogy. Once they're baked, cookies can never really be "dough" again. So when you hear the 1986 "We Can Funk" in the context of the Graffiti Bridge "We Can Funk," it isn't so much dough and cookies as it is gingersnaps and snickerdoodles. we've moved from wizard of oz to charlie and the chocolate factory! Interesting point, Princes own re-releases of certain songs with different formats. I dont agree with the earlier point that perhaps he should have had 'suits' to curb his output post WB. I think much of his work would not have made albums. I think the music industry has been telling the public for too long what we like and dont/wont pay for. Prince has proved that wrong, most of us in here have paid for nearly all his work. Whether we decide we like it or not, we choose to get it and listen. Our minds are open to his offerings because he hasnt been restricted and therefore has been able to break boundaries traditionally held within music. It still annoys me that he is labeled R&B. More recently Ive noticed Alternative Rock as a label. This is from the record industry and their boxes they put people in. So technically Prince should be in most 'genres' or of course in one of his own. What I do find interesting is the fact that the final product is perhaps more restrained in that he has to conform to the ideal length etc of a piece. A good example for me is: When we're dancing close and slow, the guitar at the end feels curbed as it trails off. Someone made that decision to end the song prematurely and I must admit I would be interested to know if that should have been longer as to me the song feels like it should have carried on. I wonder if this is why Prince appears to prefer the process of live performance, because he is not restricted in that way. Having said that his recent albums have contained short abrupt music IMO. walk with crooked shoes www.myspace/syblepurplelishous | |
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With Prince, more often than not, the process.
It's unbelievable to me how many of Prince's earlier unreleased versions of tracks I prefer to the released versions. I can often understand why he changes them, but it means we miss out on some Gems. I consider the stories behind the making of some of Princes albums fascinating. For instance, tell me it isn't mind-blowing how he laid down the drum-track for all 4 of the opening tracks of Parade in one unbroken take, then went back and laid down the bass in the same way. Thats process! "Had to get off the boat so I could walk on water..." | |
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BlackCandle said: With Prince, more often than not, the process.
It's unbelievable to me how many of Prince's earlier unreleased versions of tracks I prefer to the released versions. I can often understand why he changes them, but it means we miss out on some Gems. I consider the stories behind the making of some of Princes albums fascinating. For instance, tell me it isn't mind-blowing how he laid down the drum-track for all 4 of the opening tracks of Parade in one unbroken take, then went back and laid down the bass in the same way. Thats process! And even more than the finished product by itself (Parade is one of my favorite albums), knowing that little tidbit puts me even more in awe. "Wait - he did what?! " We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves. | |
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Genesia said: There's always one.
I know its childish but I just couldnt help myself. LET A WOMAN BE A WOMAN AND A MAN BE A MAN | |
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syble said: Genesia said: I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that glimpsing the process in retrospect is better than seeing it "in process." Maybe that's what Prince was getting at with the cookie dough analogy. Once they're baked, cookies can never really be "dough" again. So when you hear the 1986 "We Can Funk" in the context of the Graffiti Bridge "We Can Funk," it isn't so much dough and cookies as it is gingersnaps and snickerdoodles. we've moved from wizard of oz to charlie and the chocolate factory! Interesting point, Princes own re-releases of certain songs with different formats. I dont agree with the earlier point that perhaps he should have had 'suits' to curb his output post WB. I think much of his work would not have made albums. I think the music industry has been telling the public for too long what we like and dont/wont pay for. Prince has proved that wrong, most of us in here have paid for nearly all his work. Whether we decide we like it or not, we choose to get it and listen. Our minds are open to his offerings because he hasnt been restricted and therefore has been able to break boundaries traditionally held within music. It still annoys me that he is labeled R&B. More recently Ive noticed Alternative Rock as a label. This is from the record industry and their boxes they put people in. So technically Prince should be in most 'genres' or of course in one of his own. What I do find interesting is the fact that the final product is perhaps more restrained in that he has to conform to the ideal length etc of a piece. A good example for me is: When we're dancing close and slow, the guitar at the end feels curbed as it trails off. Someone made that decision to end the song prematurely and I must admit I would be interested to know if that should have been longer as to me the song feels like it should have carried on. I wonder if this is why Prince appears to prefer the process of live performance, because he is not restricted in that way. Having said that his recent albums have contained short abrupt music IMO. It annoys me that he is not appreciated for his R & B work. Prince did some excellent R & b in the '90's but fans here, critics and the population at large seems to think it's not very good or I guess not what Prince is best at. I for one enjoyed his R & B period. I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. | |
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Intersting thread
I think the people who find the process more fascinating is because they're weary of the finished product,,,,I know I am sometimes | |
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SUPRMAN said: syble said: we've moved from wizard of oz to charlie and the chocolate factory! Interesting point, Princes own re-releases of certain songs with different formats. I dont agree with the earlier point that perhaps he should have had 'suits' to curb his output post WB. I think much of his work would not have made albums. I think the music industry has been telling the public for too long what we like and dont/wont pay for. Prince has proved that wrong, most of us in here have paid for nearly all his work. Whether we decide we like it or not, we choose to get it and listen. Our minds are open to his offerings because he hasnt been restricted and therefore has been able to break boundaries traditionally held within music. It still annoys me that he is labeled R&B. More recently Ive noticed Alternative Rock as a label. This is from the record industry and their boxes they put people in. So technically Prince should be in most 'genres' or of course in one of his own. What I do find interesting is the fact that the final product is perhaps more restrained in that he has to conform to the ideal length etc of a piece. A good example for me is: When we're dancing close and slow, the guitar at the end feels curbed as it trails off. Someone made that decision to end the song prematurely and I must admit I would be interested to know if that should have been longer as to me the song feels like it should have carried on. I wonder if this is why Prince appears to prefer the process of live performance, because he is not restricted in that way. Having said that his recent albums have contained short abrupt music IMO. I for one enjoyed his R & B period. Count me on that sentiment If we're gonna play the "labels" game, we'll find out that R&B is the mother of "Rock & Roll". I personally don't fuck with labeling,,,,if they're gonna label him as strictly an "R&B singer", then thats their ignorance. You can't label him,,,,you can make comparisions all day everyday, but you can't label him | |
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great topic and a damn hard Q 2 answer. On the 1 hand listening to boots of the process i.e. the long session boot of Baby Go-Go is fascinating but the guilt that goes with it is bad. I know this may be a very feeble justification of listening to the process but I think a lot of agree that his decison making on picking trax to release is poor, can you imagine that like 'I wonder', never saw the light of day.
Thing is P can and hopefully will solve this and go back to the NPG music club concept.He has indeed released demo versions on the Crystal ball set so if it's O.K. with the creator then it's cool with me too. Sometimes the pleasue is all in the 4play!. | |
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both... if there´s a genius he´s doing them Forever in my life... | |
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now that i think about it, i prefer seeing the product first, and then learning about the process. but i like it better in the form of an essay or a documentary than having to sift through the raw materials and figure it out (though i guess there is a certain thrill to that). i just think it's better when the artist can take you back and walk you through the process after all is said and done. more educational or somethin'. | |
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i mostly get with Anx above, but i'm a sucker for making visits to the studio over time and watching how the whole creative process unfolds, and it's even more fun when i'm able to lend my ear to the project and see it all evolve from there | |
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Snap said: i mostly get with Anx above, but i'm a sucker for making visits to the studio over time and watching how the whole creative process unfolds, and it's even more fun when i'm able to lend my ear to the project and see it all evolve from there
yeah, if they're okay with that it can be fun. there are some artists who have been at it so long, they have the process down to a science and it's fun to watch how they work their magic. i know if i'm working on anything creative though, i want to be left alone in privacy until i'm completely finished, mostly because i don't want people's comments influencing my process while the thoughts are still forming. it's kind of like when mrs. brady would get upset when mr. brady would come in and stick his finger in the pot while she was cooking. "mike, it's not ready yet!!!" after i can share the end result with people, i'm happy to go backwards and show how i created what i did. | |
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Anxiety said: Snap said: i mostly get with Anx above, but i'm a sucker for making visits to the studio over time and watching how the whole creative process unfolds, and it's even more fun when i'm able to lend my ear to the project and see it all evolve from there
yeah, if they're okay with that it can be fun. there are some artists who have been at it so long, they have the process down to a science and it's fun to watch how they work their magic. i know if i'm working on anything creative though, i want to be left alone in privacy until i'm completely finished, mostly because i don't want people's comments influencing my process while the thoughts are still forming. it's kind of like when mrs. brady would get upset when mr. brady would come in and stick his finger in the pot while she was cooking. "mike, it's not ready yet!!!" after i can share the end result with people, i'm happy to go backwards and show how i created what i did. good analogy! actually, that's the way i am too -- unless i'm totally blocked, i work best alone, and i seem to work better with people who don't know anything than those who do because those who do tend to "help" too much. i can't stand having a thought interrupted. i often tell people, "wait... it may look like i'm not doing anything but i'm trying to work this out in my head, just wait." i guess i'm kind of a hypocrite when it comes to wanting to sit back and watch others; though i've found that some musicians prefer input along the way, even the most talented ones. it's hard to be objective about one's own creations and they like to hear what others "hear". i like the input as well, but not until after i've reached some kind of stopping point. plus, i like surprising people with the final "destination" -- cuz if they've already been along for the ride, it's not so much of a surprise anymore now, is it? | |
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BlackCandle said: With Prince, more often than not, the process.
It's unbelievable to me how many of Prince's earlier unreleased versions of tracks I prefer to the released versions. I can often understand why he changes them, but it means we miss out on some Gems. I consider the stories behind the making of some of Princes albums fascinating. For instance, tell me it isn't mind-blowing how he laid down the drum-track for all 4 of the opening tracks of Parade in one unbroken take, then went back and laid down the bass in the same way. Thats process! for all the songs on the album? Is there more than one opening track on the lp? One more thing . . . Kiss was a separate song that already existed. So when he changed it, he laid down the changes as part of this? [Edited 7/11/08 13:08pm] I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. | |
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