This thread is inspired by a comment I saw in another: that people shouldn't listen to bootlegs because what is important is the final product - that's what Prince wanted us to hear - and that the process is immaterial.

As someone who makes a living from creative pursuits (I'm a writer by trade and do some acting on the side), I totally disagree with this. I find the creative process fascinating. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the "getting there" is often far more interesting than the final product. Let's face it...whether it's a song or a character or a poem...these things do not just spring out of nothingness. There is an evolution. Some of my favorite recordings to listen to are old rehearsals. Listening to him work through songs and arrangements with the band is beyond interesting.

I understand the desire to preserve a sense of mystery...to make people wonder, "Wow - how did he get there?" And if we're talking about Prince, the cloak-and-dagger stuff is old hat. But the occasional glimpse inside is wonderful. The two released versions of The Dance, for example, show an incredible evolution - both in the arrangements and in Prince's head.

Once (in the waning days of the NPGMC) Prince came into U Tell Us (as 3121) and talked in a roundabout way about this very thing. He likened bootlegs to cookie dough - and said it was better to wait 'til the cookies were baked. I said I happened to like raw cookie dough - and the entire thread disappeared.

What do you think? Product or process?

process, definantly.....because u if u kno wat the artist went through 2 get their work completed, it makes u appreciate that artist's work more

it's a hard question to answer.

you can get so caught up in process that you can completely ignore the intent of the product.

on the other hand, you can get so focused on the end result that you don't pay attention to the details created in the journey required to put it on your table.

so i guess it's a balance, or maybe it depends on the product/process in question. in this case, i'd mostly agree, though on the side of the artist, i can see how they'd want you to focus on the finished product rather than nosing around in all the guts and machinery behind the curtain.

buuuuut, when someone lets the curtain fly open now and again, what can ya do?

I wrote that in the Secrets purple rain thread:

that is a good reason for not listening to boots. I dont think you should listen to unreleased stuff or previous studio versions. Its like asking to see the sketches and screwed up bits of paper containing the lyrics. yeah its interesting but its not what he wanted you to hear. the final result is what matters not how he got there.

I guess it was my post you are taking about.

I am also an artist and writer as well as designer by trade. I understand what you mean, its fascinating to have a process revealed. Such is human nature to pry and observe.

I think that as an artist I do not want people to see my stepping stones to my final piece. The discarded and rejected. To me those are things that I do not want shown as they are not the intended result. For me they are not good enough. The final piece is where i have decided to stop and allow people to see.

My poetry is the same, why would i want people to see the scrawls and scribbles of ideas.

As a society we are fed constant gossip and eavesdrop and overlook. i feel the same way about boots.

These studio outtakes etc are indeed interesting and in the future i guess people will want to study them the way we now have documentories about michaelangelo's letters etc

However I can also understand why Prince would not want these released.

Some suggest that Prince has already released too much in the sense that he is unrestrained by a label.

Yes the 'getting there' is undoubtedly fascinating but does it make it right.

There should be a matter of personal restraint for fans. Just because boots are out there doesnt mean ou should listen to them.

My point is this: Prince has released the finished piece that in his mind is as perfect as he thinks it can get, he feels it is done. Its the same as a piece of art. To listen to scratchy outtakes, or earlier recordings - works in progress- are to perhaps derive a new perceptions and meaning from the music, that would have otherwise been derived from the finished piece.

My opinion is that hearing the process taints the experience of the finished piece.
[Edited 7/9/08 10:14am]
[Edited 7/9/08 10:28am]

Anxiety said:

<--- just pictured Prince as the Wizard of Oz
[Edited 7/9/08 10:13am]

As a writer myself, I too am fascinated by the process but I'd much rather people have the final product.
Some of the material I've recorded sounds like I hate my voice, which I do.
Not something I want to share with the world.
By the time I've recorded something the song is fully written. Background vocals can be done on the fly unless they are written in.
So in that sense that process is done. Laying tracks is no fun and I wouldn't share it half finished. It just won't represent itself as well.

On the other hand I too like hearing the evolution a song goes through.
I don't have any other artist where I have material like that, so I too enjoy listening and learning.
Track that are only the finished product, I don't sit around wondering how different it was than what I am hearing is.
I've changed songs the day I was tracking them simply because I didn't want to deal with the tempo or mood the song was written in. Since no one but me knew any better, I'd do it. Which for me leaves two versions of the song in my head.

Mmmm, cookie dough...

I like hearing the process. It interests me to catch this glimpse of his creative process. Often, it's interesting, whether or not I agree with the choices he's made along the way.

It's somewhat tricky, perhaps unfair, in my view, to properly criticize or critique his bootleg material, though. For things I create, I don't want my works-in-progress overanalyzed; I want the judgment to come for the finished product. That's what I consider to be my best work and the completion of the process; the stuff in the middle was me working out some things, for better or worse.

In the end, I'm interested in both because I've been a fan of his, and in awe of his talents, for so long that I want to know how he went from point A to point B. I'd be interested to see the thrown-away paper trails of some of my favorite writers, too.

As an Artist myself I can see where Prince is coming from. I would be horrified if my 'unfinished' work hit the streets. Not because there not good, but it may be something that wasn't finished. Maybe vocals that I was still working on..or Guitar/Bass parts I was still putting together.

Of course I love to hear his Bootlegs..but I can understand him not wanting those public. It's like somebody reading ur Diary or something.

The Finished Product is best. It's the painting as the Artist intends it to be.

syble said:

Does seeing sketches by an artist ruin the painting? I don't think so but again it is interesting and fascinating at times to see the evolution of a piece of art.

syble said:

I understand where you're coming from. But you know...many's the time I've more or less been forced to change something I've written (damned editors!
) and to this day I think what I wrote to begin with was better.

And I don't care if people watch me rehearse a play (though I think they'd be pretty bored if they did). Every performance is going to be different, anyway.

Though, come to think of it, I'm not sure I'd want the rehearsals to be filmed. Then again, I don't want the performances to be filmed, either. Geez...where does that leave me?

i would say the process, cause there have been songs that either have an extra verse or a musical passage that one can look at it and say yes he did a good thing by omitting it and others where ur like why did he snip that part?!!!

4 prime xamples of this 4 me r:

something in the water --good edit job there

purple rain - good job getting rid of the xtra verse

darling nikki --what the hell man that interlude was great

computer blue - dude ....WHY THE EDITS!!!???

the process allows one 2 c the evolution of a song of how it came 2 b tho mostly we have all heard the finished product 1st. imo it just allows 4 better insight in2 his or any other artists thought process and creation.


prince can say he hates bootlegs and sick websheriff's all over the net after us, but even he can't admit that without them, his career wouldn't have had the longevitiy it has been

Anxiety said:

Couldn't have said this better myself.

SUPRMAN said:

so we are back to my question of self - restraint and being a fan.

Just because the boots are out there doesnt mean we should listen.

Obviously being a fan presents the natural curiosity, like searching youtube for clips etc

the earlier analogy of wizard of oz exactly supports what im saying.

The finished product is amazing and enjoyed in its entirety and for what it is -

but the glimpse of the little man with the controls behind the curtain making it happen tarnishes the experience of the finished product.

So if the curtain flips open, turn away.

syble said:

The Wizard of Oz analogy doesn't support what you're saying, for the simple reason that the wizard was a fraud. He put Dorothy and her friends in a great deal of peril because his power and ego were more important than the well-being of others. Had they seen the wizard as he was before they went off to get the Wicked Witch's broomstick, they'd've known that he was a mere mortal - and saved themselves a lot of grief.

On the other hand, if your goal as an artist is to have people think of you as superhuman in some way, the analogy works just fine. And I think it could be argued that, at least on some level, that is Prince's goal.

Good thread BTW

syble said:

Thanks for inspiring it. I'm enjoying the debate.

I wasnt taking the analogy THAT far!!

I literally meant that scene, where they are in awe of the face on the wall and then see the guy behind the scenes.

OMG Im arguing over the wizard of oz!!!!!

blame anxiety he started it!

i dont mean artists want to appear mysterious or super human. I agree with some of the others here in that you want only the finished, your best creation to be viewed not the vulnerable private process.

I mean the glimpse can affect the final way you feel about it.

interesting thread this.... I would actually not only apply some of the sentiments of the bootlegs, but also to a lot of the officially released material prince has done of late.

IMHO, I think leaving Warners was one of the worst things prince ever did, I think under their eye he was restrained to evolve behind closed doors, which in my opinion would have been a good thing.

If it had been the case that he was actually limited to only released certain amounts of material, maybe some of the stuff might have made the grade. Take the emancipation album for instance, it could have been a much better single disc if the tracks had been cherry picked.

i think also that within that environment he was at least occasionally told what was or wasn't good output, something which I seriously doubt is expressed by people close to him these days. Prince's own censorship of his bootlegs is one thing, but maybe he should consider some of his finished tracks as outtakes too.

a good point, but i think any artist would argue that it is their right to put out as much material/paintings/books etc without censorship based around money.

I think Prince has pioneered that from an early stage in his career.

Many artists literally wait a life time to release stuff that may never have made it onto the shelves earlier in their careers.

If Prince thought it was good enough to share with listeners then who are the suits to censor that.

A true artist doesnt care for other people approval, it simply does not matter. Unfortunately music became an industry and revolved around money making, this has tainted the art of music making for pleasure and creativity.

It has produced a world of wanna be rich artists who care less for their creativity than their bank balance.

syble said:

So, you're saying (if I read you correctly) that if an artist knows someone might see an unfinished product (or some scrap of the process), s/he might become more guarded about the work? Less free?

Bewdy said:

Oddly enough, it was during the WB years that most of the "process" material made it into public view.

Genesia said:

no that is not what i meant.

altho that is possible.

I do not like others to be involved in my process at all or to be questioned about it

syble said:

While it is true that it is any artist's right to put out as much work as they want, my comments are more a reflection of what an 'artist' thinks is great work and is actually produced being great are often two very different things. And I actually do believe that in some cases, if a 'money minded suit' as you put it is making a decision that some music is not of mass appeal, or not very good well, their judgment is indeed questionable or a concern. But I don't think I'm on my own in thinking that a lot of the output post warner brothers could have done with a 'suit' to stop it from release, which might suggest that they weren't making entirely bad decisions in the past?

While some people on the org would like to listen (and pay) for any note that came from prince, even a tuneful fart coming from his arse, parp... I think I'd rather just hear the vetted good stuff and have to search through the rest of the bootlegs for the rare diamonds in the rough.

Someone made the comment that the bootleg were indeed started when prince was at warners, I'd suggest that the reason the public wanted to hear bootlegs was because the stuff in the public domain was of such high quality there was actually a greater demand for more work. I'm not sure the same can now be said for people who are not avid fans or on this forum.

I would personally say that it depends at what point you discover the works-in-progress.

If you're looking retrospectively, then I think it's okay. You got to experience the finished product first and, in Prince's case, listened to it before you got to hear how he got there. You heard it first exactly how he wanted you to hear it. Hearing alternative versions after is fascinating, but won't take away from the official release (and for the most part, will add or embellish them).

With very few exceptions, for the most part I've been disappointed with a final product after hearing the unreleased/obscure version(s) beforehand.

Guitar is a good case in point. The Feb 07 version came across as quirky and as whimsical as he was back in 1986 with the Revolution. The fact that the song had little guitar in it was almost like Prince playing a joke on us.
Now, I like the album version of Guitar, but it sounded very pedestrian when compared to the quirk of the previous internet release.
Likewise, when I heard that We Can Funk and Joy In Repetition were going to appear on Graffiti Bridge, I jumped with joy. However, the sensual '86 version of We Can Funk was replaced with a version apparently based on the '83 recording which I haven't heard. And for Joy In Repetition to lose the 'slow' intro for its official release was hugely disappointing for me, given that for me, that intro sets up the atmosphere of the song much better.

So for me, I'd rather not see the artist's sketches until I've been able to see, and fully appreciate the finished artwork.

That said, when Prince's 'sketches' have been offered to me on a plate before his presentation, I can't help but take a good look. But more often than not, I'll wish I'd waited until after.

interesting points haystack, funnily enough I am listening to Lewis Taylor's lost album at the moment which has a few different arrangements and versions on it to some other albums, stoned pt1 and pt2, which also have different versions on them too. Basically as a trio of albums there is a lot of re-covered ground, and I definitely have my favorites based on the order I first heard them in!

Now have I completely contradicted myself or what?

Haystack said:

I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that glimpsing the process in retrospect is better than seeing it "in process."

Maybe that's what Prince was getting at with the cookie dough analogy. Once they're baked, cookies can never really be "dough" again. So when you hear the 1986 "We Can Funk" in the context of the Graffiti Bridge "We Can Funk," it isn't so much dough and cookies as it is gingersnaps and snickerdoodles.

Depends what you are talking about if your pulling one off the process if far more interesting than the product.

There's always one.

I am sure that an artist that primarily writes poetry...may have a narrower opinion than someone that is involved in an orchestrated piece of music. As a writer I am extremely critical of what I have to say, and the way it has been said...I have loved things I have written one day, and found them worthless to me the next. I have burned as many pieces of paper as I have tucked away for later revision.
A short story is also different than a poem. I don't mind discussing a storyline concept with people while the story is in progress...however with a poem that I find to be a personal perspective...I find that the experiences I have drawn from are private roads of thought I was on alone...so that I could gather them all to produce the most effective and concise experience for the reader to feel or learn in a poem, what I had felt or learned in a day or a week, or a decade. I favor the final product...

When I reread some of my diaries that were later burned...that I had started as a young girl..(I am currently on my third series of diaries, unburned.) I occassionally saved a page...And I burned depression, and anger, and love, and, dreams, and idea's...because as an artist...I wanted to preserve the best, for the reader that would take the time to learn about my heart.
[Edited 7/9/08 17:03pm]

Gimme da boot, I don't care how it got here.