It sure seems to me to be Anti-Incest. He is conflicted, as many incest victims are, it feels physically good but he knows it is wrong.

I take the line "incest is everything it's said to be," as everything good and bad. That is the problem with incest the conflict physical response vs emotional reaction.

OskarKristio2 said:

I'm none of those, and I think Prince is totally gay. This doesn't mean I'm not a fan though. I'm am definitely a fan. I'm a fan of a gay rock star.

Imago said:

Man, same here. And there's a hell of a lot of homophobic fans.


Weird, no? You'd think followers of Our Lady might be a titch more open minded than that.

Imago said:

BEST

SONG

EVER

OskarKristio2 said:

And what about people who think it's impossible for him to be gay, and who bitch, kick, scream, and cry at the mere suggestion?

Fact is, it's not impossible -and the second anyone announces they know for sure Our Hero can't possibly swing anyway but straight is the second they've lost touch with reality. 1 in 10 folk are gay, after all. That's a pretty high probability of anyone being so inclined.

Add those numbers to the fact that Prince makes a Barbie Doll look butch, and all his exes have reported coming away unsastified from the deal, and the possibility just jumps higher. Is Prince gay? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But I doubt he's as completely, undeniably hetero as his crazier fans seem to want to believe, either.

OskarKristio2 said:

man i aint none of these.i was just pointing out how i see it.and its less to do with prince and more to do with his fans at times.

Being a survivor of incest, I've been told and agree with the idea that no child, adult or anyone would ever bring up such a subject unless there was some validity to it.....I mean common.....especially Prince about his own family???? I highly doubt it's a joke. and either way I send him love.....

Madison88 said:

I don't think it's a joke at all. I do think it's not well thought out and probably just his way of being controversial at that time. I was definitely trying to stretch the envelope.

I've never heard the song... so I can't comment on that....and I'm not sure when it came out....when it comes to incest...I guess I just wish more people had talked, sung, anything about it when I was going through it....I might have made it out of there.....probably wishful thinking....

Madison88 said:

I agree. It's just not something that comes to mind as a topic for the average person who's not been there, and especially not sung in the first person the way Prince did with details relevant to his real life situation as a teen.

I've read several different accounts alternately saying Prince as a kid was bounced around between the neighbours and/or foster homes. Didn't anyone ever wonder why he might've been? A kid doesn't just get removed from his family for having parents with a penchant for nutty names.

He is not saying incest is good OR bad. He is just saying it's "everything it's said to be."

Now, I don't know about ya'll... but what IS incest said to be? I don't hear too many people talking about how good or bad it is.

I assume it's good for the initiator, but probaby scary for the recipient.

So, the song could be viewed from two different points of view. Gemini.

Christopher said:

Adorable picture of Kenny G and Chaka.

meow85 said:

Its not impossible for him or any person to be gay
but it seems always the same deal that if any guy acts a bit campish in a theatrical context the automatic conclusuion by straights and gays is oh he must be gay.
what about if he were more macho acting then would it be considered lesslikely he is gay.

Seriously there is no shortage of male lead singers and performers that theatrically camp it up on stage whom based on that could be judged as being gay, ever see how Mick Jagger strutted around or how about Robert Smith from the Cure, these are just tip of the iceberg.

I pose the question another way, why is it so hard for some people to believe he is straight?

Ive come across females who are not specifically Prince fans and they have indicated they thought he is gay but I just think they are the type of woman who
dont get guys like Prince. They probably have a very limited idea as to how a straight man should act ... dress etc, this has more to do with societies steretypes than simply if someone is gay or straight.

I really dont care if he is straight or gay but I tend to believe he is straight more than anything else.

For those that are hellbent on thinking he is gay , what would be the biggest reason ... his high heels , his theatriscs ? , but what about the fact his been in several long term relationships with females , what about fact his songs , lyrics emotions are drawn to appreciation of female form.

After 30 years in the spotlight if Prince were really gay I believe it would have come out by now, I think he would have even declared it after all the guy hasnt cared what people thought about him in so many ways why would he care if they knew he was gay ...if he was.
[Edited 5/25/08 18:37pm]

berniejobs said:

I so disagree.
When is the last time you heard the initiator of incest bragging about it?
There is generally only one public reaction to incest. Abhorence.
If you hear anything about it, it is from the victims. This thread is a fine example. You don't hear anyone defending or bragging about committing incest.
Why do you think that is?
So you need to further clarify what you mean because as stated I can't buy the Gemini conflict thing.

meow85 said:

Read more about his childhood obviously. I am not going to lay it out here. It's been discussed and analysed plenty. IF a big IF it would be in New York where the song is set.

OskarKristio2 said:

Let me co-sign on all that!For the record, this gay man has never thought he was gay.
[Edited 5/25/08 19:11pm]

HamsterHuey said:

I don't know that album , unfortunately

berniejobs said:

correct. even for the victim it feels good. The nerves are there at birth the rest is a physiologically reaction to stimulus. So even as it happens the conflict within the victim is 'it feels good but it makes me feel bad.' The fact that it is physically pleasurable is used against the victim. And it is often part of the process, 'it feels good doesn't it.' is more than just ego stroking it is part of the control scheme. "It felt good so it is my fault."

Sign of the Times

[Edited 5/26/08 10:45am]

emesem said:

malbena said:

makes plenty of sense and especially if u come from a big family and have a family renuion of sorts. there is bound 2 b a family member u don't know and might find attractive, only 2 find out ur related and u can't go that route.

Prince is not gay, goddamn it! He even says he isn't in the "Uptown" song. He's gone out with girls and got married but got divorced. He makes songs about GIRLS.

How the fuck in the world do U think he's gay?! He likes girls!

Tame said:

who's that poodle ?

Imago said:

Holy shit.

Best conversation on here....EVER!

OskarKristio2 said:

After close to 50 years in the business Little Richard still hasn't come out, and it's no secret which way he swings.

I don't think Prince is gay, nor do I think he's straight. In all likelihood, I believe he's probably bisexual.

BUT

Prince is also a fairly religious, and at the core, fairly conservative, guy. Always has been, even in his younger, supposedly wilder days. I doubt if he really were anything but straight he'd ever purposely come out. He might not even have acted on it for years. I don't know, and neither do any of his other fans.

The point is, if there's nothing wrong with being called gay, even if incorrectly, why do any of the fans get upset about it?

IWouldDie4U666 said:

You're exactly the type of fan I'm talking about!

Why freak the fuck out about it, if there's nothing wrong with it? Prince isn't crying himself to sleep because someone, somewhere thinks he might like pole, so why are you? The dude doesn't need you to defend him.

And how do you think you know so conclusively he is straight, anyways? Because he writes songs about girls? Because he's been married twice? I'm sorry, but neither of those facts actually prove anything. Plenty of gay and bisexual men have girlfriends, get married, father children. By your logic, they can't possibly be anything but beer-swilling pussy-chasers.

JustErin said:

Oh, God...I'm gonna have nightmares now.

meow85 said:[quote]

OskarKristio2 said:

Im not upset about it, I just reserve the right to have an oppinion which I have stated and that is I dont think his gay but I find it interesting I guess that some people male or female, straight or gay see him that way perhapos I think they just dont get him but who knows maybe Im wrong but but ultimatly it doesnt matter.




I have never heard Prince come out and say he is against homosexuality/homosexuals and I think he is more conservative now but in his younger days I think he was a bit wild and carefree in the sense he didnt care what people thought I remember seeing him live in concert in 92 and the guy at one point was practically jacking off on stage lol I mean he was kinda rubbing himself through his clothes.
I dont think Prince lets the world stop him from expressing himself however he wants to so if he were gay I think he would just express that.




But as you said people know its in the know so yeah really its noones buisiness and little richard doesnt have to come out but sure there are people who know and its kinda known anyway.

My point is I think if Prince were gay there would be people who know and we would have heard about it already I think what we hear in the org on this topic are just some peoples oppinions but not from anyone who really knows anything substantial to make that call.


I dont know if I really believe in the idea of Bisexuality I mean ok I believe in it from point of sexual openess or opurtunisticness but I think probably many people could be bisexual if they chose I mean look at what happens in jails, but I tend to think people are ultimatly straight or gay but ok I could be wrong.


As for the thread subject at hand.
The song Sister certainly has shock value but I dont think it was written for shock without any insight.
Im not saying Prince was victim of it but maybe he felt he was being hit on or maybe it happened to someone he knew or something he observed but I dont think this song was completly pulled out of thin air, there is some level of inspiration behind it.
Certainly he isnt glorfying incest with lines like " put me on the street and make me blue", "dont put me on the street again", "I just wanna be your friend".
[Edited 5/27/08 6:04am]

Tame said:

WTF?

People who believe in GOD hate gays, the bible is fairly specific about that, they think gays are all going straight to hell?!

And please... "God so loved the world", presumably god invented incest, because he created everything supposedly? but then why would he invent if it was a sin? so he can test people and send them straight to hell, sounds like one sick fucker to me?

The fact that people still believe in this archaic nonsense is just bizarre to me.

Back to the topic (y'know, the actual SONG), I DO think that the song's primary function was to shock. That doesn't immediately invalidate it as an artful tune, though. The song is presented, lyrically, in a format that wouldn't be out of place in the Penthouse Forum. The rather lewd descriptions of his sister not wearing underwear because of its way of "stopping the juice" has more in common with pornography than it does any great social statement. At this point in his career, Prince was trying to make a name for himself. In 1980, no one DREAMED of singing about being seduced by their sibling. Keep in mind, the track is preceded by "Head", which is not only about oral sex, but also about seducing a virgin on her wedding day. Prince was pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable for even rock stars to sing about and do. In "Sister", the straightforward approach of the song is a pornographic tale of a young man being introduced to his sexuality by an older woman. The lyrics are shocking enough for the time period, even if all references to the sibling nature of the older woman are removed. Prince takes this a step further by making his seducer into his sister. The primary intention is to stun the listener.

Dirty Mind has often been described as Prince's "punk" album, not for the musical stylings, but for the lyrics and attitude that run throughout. It aggresively attacks societal mores and attitudes, and has an anti-authoritarian stance throughout. Primarily, it is adversarial to mainstream America's views on sex and sexuality. This doesn't necessarily mean that Prince is advocating seducing virgin brides or screwing sisters, but rather that he is challenging the listener to question what is right and wrong with sexuality as viewed by Middle America. In "Sister", there is a definite negative connotation that is paired with the salacious descriptions, and overall there is a sense that the woman in the song is taking advantage of her brother's naivette. In our typical culture, a younger man being taught the ways of sex by an older woman would be viewed as a boast-worthy affair, elevating the young man into the status of a sexual conqueror. Prince twists this concept with his sister theme, making it into an uncomfortable, rather repugnant idea. It is simealtaneously a titillating fantasy, and a nauseating tale of innocence lost.

Prince has hinted before that he wrote the song in a fit of anger, perhaps at one of his actual sisters (or at least a woman to whom he felt a bond on par with that of a sibling). The song certainly has an angry under-current. Does this mean that the sister in question actually had sexual relations with him under the threat of making him homeless if he didn't comply? It is certainly possible, but is just as likely that Prince was metaphorically describing some other slight, in which he felt taken advantage of and "screwed", so to speak. It is highly probable that Prince was giving this song the double purpose of shocking his audience, and exorcising some sort of anger at someone whom he felt betrayed by.

This tune is always one that sparks debate, and it says something about it that it can still cause a stir some 28 years later. Incest is not generally something that any sane individual views as a good, or exciting, act. It is morally repugnant, and generally viewed as a vile act. This aspect is certainly present in this song, strangely combined with a sense of guilty arousal. As I mentioned earlier, on this album the song is juxtaposed with a tale of a virgin being seduced on her wedding day. One song depicts Prince as the sexual conqueror, taking advantage of an innocent young woman, whilst the other presents him as the victim of an older woman. This is, in my opinion, no accident. The duality of Prince's psyche is first being displayed here, and his conflicted feelings regarding sex and sexuality are on full display. In many ways,this album was the building block to the passion plays of Love vs Lust that would be so prevelant in his later work.

The entire Dirty Mind disc is one worthy of a deeper analysis. Lyrically, it is the genesis of many of Prince's recurring themes.

-----
[Edited 5/27/08 7:24am]