BartVanHemelen said:

hasn't trent reznor even credited prince in recent interviews for exactly what you're calling bullshit on?

I have a lot of respect for Prince

I have a lot of respect for Trent Reznor

From the interviews i've read over the years, they certainly have some respect for each other.

I remember reading an 'interview' with Prince where he was quoted as saying that he'd been listening to NIN a lot while driving his car.

I read an interview where Trent said he'd been to Paisley Park, and i would guess you wouldn't bother to do that unless you were interested in Prince...he did say that Prince had behaved a bit like a twat when he was there though
-----
Anyway. I've always thought of 'Closer' as a funky tune, reminiscent of Prince! I'd like to hear Prince do a cover of it!

Interesting that Prince did a cover of 'Creep' by Radiohead at Coachella this weekend too!
[Edited 4/27/08 10:57am]

ya know, i wish it could be 1988 forever and that prince would amaze and shock and awe fans with every move he made.

interestingly enough, somehow it got to be 2008 and the man is 50 years old.

funny how time works.

Anxiety said:

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

I know the covermount Planet Earth CD shocked and amazed the Music industry in the UK...covermounts are a contentious issue anyway, but releasing a full album that way was unprecedented

The 21 nights in London surprised a few people too

Isn't the fact he played Coachella a little unexpected too?

And doesn't it make us sound like old men/women if we reminisce/pine for 1988?

Bart i applaud your thoroughness, responded to dam well everybody, you know your shit and it shows, BUT you have to agree that the model Trent has created for him will not work for everyone but the ones that already have a large dedicated following and the luxury of the money to back it up.
I totally agree that the music and entertainment industry will change, but everyone will set up a business model that works for them.
What works for Trent may not work for Mariah, who is doing pretty well under the current system, and Prince is doing pretty good under his own whims, which is dam cool too.
Trent & Prince, you cant compare them, apples and oranges.
You sound bitter tho, like Prince personally sets out to gyp his fans, and i dont think thats the case.
[Edited 4/27/08 13:34pm]

violetblues said:

This is a good point...and it's been levelled at Prince and Radiohead as a criticism (i'm sure Reznor will get the same criticism too if he hasn't already)

All three artists have done some interesting/pioneering forms of music distribution recently, but all rely on the fact they have a following that was established by the old way of doing things!...which doesn't really help any new artists that are trying to earn a living from their passion.

having said that the thing Radiohead just did where you could download the individual (multi)tracks of the new single and submit your own remix was an opportunity...it certainly seems to have gotten 'Holy Fuck' some publicity over here in the UK

At what?

BartVanHemelen said:

Very interesting what you wrote. But I have to ask you this. What do you get out of trying to give out "facts" about Prince, the majority of which tend to go to the negative? Is it to try and disprove that the man is a genius? To disprove the accomplishments of what Prince has done throughout his career? What is your point in all of this? Now I will say, you did bring up some very interesting facts with this thread and your posts throughout the years but to me, when you come up with these "facts", my thought is that you are posting this stuff so that you can get people to see what you see and then ultimately side with you or you try to start stuff up in here to get fans all mad. You can say that you don't care if others see what you see but you do, otherwise why post all the things that you do when you decide to post these so-called "facts"? You can LIE all you want with that but I would hope that the majority can see past what you said about that.

Look, we know you're not a fan anymore but even if Prince decided to become the man he was again doing songs like Lady Cab Driver, Darling Nikki and Head and he did everything you think he should do with the internet and the fans, you'd still find a way to rip him into a million pieces. I don't know what more there is to say with you, but I'm sure you'll come back here with more "facts" to try and disprove me. That's all you ever seem to do around here.
[Edited 4/27/08 18:10pm]

BartVanHemelen said:

SCRAPING THE BARREL!! johnny who was that OMG pleeaase!

Tom Jones covered Prince hurray does that nake you someone of note then when another lame arse old guy covers your songs or does that just make them desperate to appeal to a younger audience -ooohhh let me think which could it be HMMMM!!!

syble said:

wow, have you actually heard Johnny Cash's version of this? or seen the video, he totally makes it his own and I'd even call it his defining song. Seriously I could write a paragraph on this but all I'll say is go and listen to it and it'll blow you away.

syble said:

yeah, kinda like these days when an older musician covers radiohead OH OOPS

cloudguitar said:

i'm not necessarily being sarcastic, but your response kinda makes my point for me.

the man is still doing things his way and turning a blind eye to what people say he "should" be doing, for better or for worse.

i think he carries out his rebellious/individualistic streak differently now than he did back in the '80s. he does a lot of things differently now than he did in the '80s. one reason for that may be that it's not the '80s anymore. i guess that was my point.

Anxiety said:

in that quote we have the true essence of what lots of us feel about P.Other long stayers such as Elton, Lionel, Stevie etc have all shot their creative loads long ago and now like P bank on a loyal fan base, put out an occasional 'lite' version of their sound on CD and above all else earn mega bucks from the touring circuit. Nobody with half a brain would begrudge them that but with P the case is that we know that he is capable of so much more and can still sell the tickets but also deliver great,original songs that mean something. Why he makes these song choices is beyond me. I adored the 02 shows and aftershows and just hope that one day soon he delivers the quality again.

funkyhead said:

that wasn't necessarily what i meant. even artists who continue to put out challenging music in their older years are likely not repeating their past glories. david bowie would look a little silly in a ziggy stardust costume at 60 years old, and even saint trent has traded in his rubber suits and fishnets for a more dignified black t-shirt and jeans. and i know we're not just talking fashions here, but my point is that prince now is not the same person as prince then. if anyone expects the same energy from prince now that he radiated 20 years ago, yeah, there's going to be some substantial disappointment.

violetblues said:

I said this earlier - its not a competition its music!!

Agreed too about the bitter bit, so many 'fans' in here instantly have to post gripes against prince at his every move, in somes eyes he cant do anything right. As I said I think hes gone back to the old way of marketing himself - through live gigs.

syble said:

nobody should have an issue with promotion through live gigs, i think it's more a case of just what is he promoting?. It's just down to quality control. Seriously a 50 year old man singing about bustin' the bed head and wanting to make you bleed is really not a good place to be and lets not mention the 'A' word!!. I don't really care whether it's the net or live performace that he chooses as a marketing tool as it all just comes down to the music, i think we can all agree on that?.

Anxiety said:

Fair point! didnt say Prince wasnt doing that did I? in fact I posted elsewhere thats exactly what he did in order to play the crowd. Doesnt mean Radiohead should be considered wonderful just cos they got covered. Thats for the listener to decide when listening to their music.

My point was just cos Trent got covered doesnt mean anthing, doesnt make him brilliant or anything which is how I read it in the earlier post, like jonny cash covering him was some sort of endorsement of Trents pioneering abilities on the net which is of course the topic of this thread.


Id happily go listen to Jonny cash as I like a few bits of his as my mum did and we kinda grew up on this stuff. I still stand by my earlier posts about comparing Trent to prince.

syble said:

Is 'the man in black' now the yardstick by which all covers are measured? If he hasn't done it it ain't worth doing?

P has been covered by a number of artists - what is your point here?

syble said:

i think a cover version is one artist's way of saying they enjoy another artist's song. i do think it's common practice for older artists to cover younger, "hipper" artists in an attempt to connect with a younger audience, but who's to say that those older artists aren't still enjoying the songs they're covering?

i think in johnny cash's case, his decision to cover people like NIN, beck and nick cave was pretty risky. he was considered a country music legend, but in his final years decided to release a series of albums produced by rick rubin with some songs written by modern alternative rock artists. it could have been seen as a betrayal of the country tradition, but i think cash just enjoyed the songs and wanted to interpret them through his own style. i think his cover versions were very thoughtfully done and very true to his own voice.

i also think it's a non-argument to say cash covered a NIN song but not a prince song. so what? other popular and legendary artists have covered prince, both on record and in live performance. has tina turner ever covered a NIN song? does it matter?

BartVanHemelen said:

Anxiety said:

my point exactly you just said it better!

syble said:

i think we can both agree that it's a small relief that prince didn't sing "you're so ducking special" when he covered "creep" this weekend.

Thanks Bart for a great thread.
I think the crux of all of Bart’s threads is that he always expected more from Prince because of his earlier work, as has felt letdown since, which is me and a lot of other people here.
I have always agreed with Bart more or less, and watched him get verbally beat down by the Fams once in a while because his focus is so heavy into the negative aspects. And yes hes a bitter angry fan,but I commend Bart for coming here and saying what he believes, a little too harshly but that is his way.
But mostly he always adds substance to this discussion, point by point dissecting everybody’s opinion, agree with it or not and keeps us thinking.
[Edited 4/28/08 11:05am]

violetblues said:

yeah, i don't know.

sure, it's always enlightening to throw a good debate into the mix, but i think the original argument of this thread is so rigidly subjective that it's near impossible to shed any kind of objective insight on the matter without getting thrown into a "fam" or "naysayer" box. i prefer not to be confined to either label, thanks.

it's all fine and well for us to opine about what we think prince SHOULD be doing with his career, but at the end of the day, it's HIS career to do with as he pleases. we all know how fickle and mercurial prince has ALWAYS been, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone when prince does something like drop the internet like a hot potato or put all his energy into promoting someone like tamar only to drop that whole project once something else attracts his attention. that's prince for ya. that's how he does. it's always been like that.

i guess i don't get how people can feel "let down" by what prince is doing these days, because really, an artist does what an artist does, and either it's well-received or it's not. prince has gone through phases in his career where he's focused his energies more toward his fan base than toward the mainstream public. right now, i think his focus is the opposite. he's going for the big crowds right now, because he knows his diehards will follow him through anything, and he is enjoying the ma$$ appeal of megacelebrity. well, that's not gonna bring us "the chocolate invasion vol. 2" but good for him all the same. it's a choice he's making for his career, and it's bringing him the success he wants. and he's still doing it on his terms. he communicates with the media and with his fans these days less than ever, which must be great for someone as private as him. sucks for us, but he has the leverage to do things on his own terms now more than ever, so if he doesn't want to say squat to the world other than through his music, he's earned that privilege.

i think that to fault prince for letting someone like trent reznor pick up where he left off with the whole internet distribution thing is like blaming sly stone for letting prince pick up where he left off with creating popular funk/rock music. isn't that the nature of things? one person innovates, then down the road someone is inspired and picks up the torch and carries it on?

kudos for prince for doing what he did when he did it, and kudos to trent for doing what he's doing in the here and now. and kudos to whomever continues when trent gets tired of what he's doing now, and someone else carries the idea forward. such is life.

Anxiety said:

Damn Anx, you said that so much better than I could. You were on point 100%!

Anxiety said:

And i agree with most of what you say too, one of the smarter cats here on the org.

purplecam said:

co-sign!

Something I'd like to add as Johnny Cash was mentioned...the American recording albums are amazing! and he was in his 60s when they were recorded!

I get the impression that some people write Prince off because off his age...and that some people think that artists only have something to contribute that's worthwhile if the artist is in their 20s

Using Cash as an example I'd say there's every chance we'll get some more beauties before he pops his clogs!

(personally, I think the One Nite Alone studio album is one such beauty)

cloudguitar said:

agreed. i have all the american albums and the box set, and i think the american recordings albums are some of cash's best work. i love that he took chances with his choice of material, and succeeded in pulling in a younger generation of fans and a whole level of appreciation.