Snap said:

Prince's style is Prince's style. That's his signature. You recognize him instantly. I really believe some of you would like him to sound like others.

He plays the music he likes to play : mainly funky stuff.

It's always funny how all these amateurs who want to give lessons to a musical genius who has such an impact on music world for the last 40 years.
[Edited 3/23/08 2:16am]

Basically, there are three different ways to write music:

1. You write what you "hear" in your mind.
For this, you don't really need any theoretical knowledge (although it might still help).
You do, however, need some instrumental proficiency (or the help of someone) to be able to translate your ideas into actual sound.

2. You write what you "know" theoretically.
"This chord will lead to this one..."
"If the melody's on the ninth, I can sustain that note into the next bar..."
"I can turn the quarter note triplets into eighth notes to get a slower tempo..."

Here, it's the opposite: you don't really need to play an instrument, if you know your theory well enough. But of course, it helps here as well.

3. You write not what you hear or what you know, but what you find
- meaning just fooling around on an instrument, and stumbling across something you like.

For this, you don't need to know theory, and you can even play your instrument very badly.
_ _ _

All these methods can be used simultaneously, in all kinds of combinations. It seems to me that Prince mostly deals with category number 1. And that might explain, at least a little bit, why he hasn't experimented much with time signatures; it's very hard to "hear" that type of things in your mind, if your main experience is pop and rock music. Very few people can do that unless they're specifically trained, or from Bulgaria or something, where that's more common...

So to write a song in 7/4, most people would have to sit down and calculate, more or less. And that kind of awareness might not be Prince's thing.
[Edited 3/23/08 3:11am]

sarkozyiszeman said:

I'm with the first guy actually. As incredible an effect Prince has had on my inner-self I must admit that he really doesn't seem to be the most challenging from a theoretical angle. He's no Zappa (a good thing) and his jazz is very very poor. But he's unique and that's ok by me

iloveannie said:

But Prince is NOT a jazz musician. Your logic works the other way around.
It is in fact a complete non sense.
You would not want Marcus Miller to sound like Springsteen.
You would not want Miles Davis to sound like Bowie.
As a matter of fact, Many great jazz musicians sound pathetic when they try to sound funky. Many great musicians sound pathetic when they try to sound like Prince as well. Prince is a real funkateer. That's what he is. Period. He is unique.
All these people have developed their own style.
Why do you guys want Prince to be someone else for Christ's sake ? His musical culture is : James Brown, Sly, Stevie and rock stuff like Hendrix or Led Zep.

Moreover he is an accomplished musician. How many people out there can produce, compose, arrange, and perform albums like SOTT or TRC ?

I will never understand why people cannot simply enjoy the great talents we have out there. We are very lucky. Music is not a competition. It talks to your heart or it does not.

sarkozyiszeman said:

well then, prince can stay in his box
and be no better than he's ever been
not that that's a bad thing
but really a shame, i'd say

too bad he got some vocal training around the purple rain era, eh?
he's sounded like someone else ever since
same with his guitar playing, keyboard styling, drums, etc.
damn, i want the 14-year old prince back!

[Edited 3/23/08 9:31am]

Snap said:

Regarding his guitar playing, sorry but this is bullshit. He is a 100 times more accomplished guitar player now than he used to be. I hope you were at the last gigs in London. He killed it on the guitar. Some of the aftershows have been mind blowing.
He has evolved a lot. He is more old school on stage now. He just does what he likes to do.

Moreover how can you say he is not trying different stuff. I mean listen to TRC, NEWS, One nite alone, 3121 or PE. Do you really think they are all the same work, same sound, same approach.
He is one of the most versatile musicians out there and now some are going top pretend he is not trying anything. Weird.
[Edited 3/23/08 10:56am]

It’s such a shame that it’s impossible to have a serious discussion about Prince’s music on this forum without people going ballistic any time anyone dares suggest that Prince is not a musical demigod who can do no wrong.

No-one is suggesting that Prince doesn’t have huge natural talent, or that he hasn’t made lots of great music. But it’s a fact that he doesn’t have much knowledge of, or interest in, music theory. And it’s interesting to speculate whether his music would have been different if he did.

I think this discussion is really interesting. Please don’t let it degenerate into a slanging match!

RealMusician said:

there is a bar in 2/4 time in the song mountains right b4 the chrous

satisfied is in 6/8 time

cathys said:

Good points cathys.

If Prince had ever taken the time to study music, he could have possibly released something beyond a handful of worthwhile songs over the last 20 years instead of recycling the same tired compositions with worsening lyrics and trite, predictable melodies. He's a talented player who had some great records in the 80's but I think the genius label is something worth inspecting as well. Would a genuis release the pap on Planet Earth? I mean, my god, I tried to listen to Lion of Judah and Resolution the other day and nearly died of a laughing fit.

Instead of taking time to study the Bible, he should take time out to study musical theory. Sounds like Tamar is willing to tutor.

MattyJam said:

We March. Get it? (2/4 is "march time.")

Never mind...

sarkozyiszeman said:

Correct.

I thought I was the only person here that knew that!

L4OATheOriginal said:

Well, like RealMusician said, 2/4 exists more in theory than anything. You can't listen to a song and say definitively whether it is in 2 or 4. Same with complex duple meters (6/8 and 12/8).

In "Mountains," it really depends on how you hear the phrase. The number of beats in the prechorus is actually a multiple of 4, so if you hear "But I say...it's only..." starting on 1, there are two beats before that and two beats that precede the chorus (i.e. two bars of 2/4 = one bar of 4/4). If you hear the phrase starting on 3, everything works out in groups of 4.

sarkozyiszeman said:

\

Damn straight, right on.

Also, most here don't seem 2 realize that Prince's keyboard playing and drumming has always been there, right from the beginning... listen 2 the instrumental demos. All jazz/fusion.

Prince has certainly evolved through the years on everything, but particularly on voice and guitar.

This thread is another example of folks not accepting (or needing 2 doubt) his musicality and ability, because it is simply 2 much 2 comprehend/accept, and/or because they don't know he played nearly everything on nearly every release.

Madhouse was mostly Prince.

Xpectation was mostly Prince.

N.E.W.S. was mostly Prince, despite the credits.

Rainbow Children was nearly all Prince, with John Blackwell and Najee.

The more mainstream releases, with band members credited, was mostly ALL Prince.

That's enough 4 now.

Basically, he's a natural, and a true channel 4 music, with some musical training. With the ear Prince has, he is able 2 use harmonies that most trained musicians wouldn't dream of, because they can't. His vocal harmonies R the best example of this.
[Edited 3/25/08 13:41pm]

cathys said:

There was no slanging match until you posted this.

So basically when some crap is said like : he is not an accomplished musician, he has not released anything goog for the last 20 years or he was abtter guitar player back in 1984... we must shut the fuck up and applaud this bullshit.

If you do not want to discuss, then do not participate to a forum. Everybody has the right to express his personal opinion.

I'm institing : I'm glad Prince NEVER learnt musical theory cuz he would never have been the Prince we know : an amazing instinctive musician.

Miles Davis refused to teach harmonies when he had a young talent around him who had never been taught theory. He thought he would break his natural talent.

That's what would have happened to Prince. Prince is Prince because he has built his skills on his own. He has created his own tricks and sound by himself listening to his hereos.

I would probaly not listen to him if he played the guitar like Pat Metheny because there is already one.

Giovanni777 said:

I had a long chat with Michael B in 1995 in Belgium with a few mates of mine (great guy by the way, very down to earth.). hehe

Wall said:

Please Tamar, shut the f*** up and do not teach him anything or Prince could end up sounding as terrible as you do.

sarkozyiszeman said:

I have 2 agree with Mr Sarkozy(WTF?)on that one. Most trained musicians are boring as fuck, who can listen to Keith Jarett or Pat Metheny without being bored out of his brain?

Wall said:

If Prince has only released a hand-full of worthwile songs in the last 20 yrs those handful of songs must have fucked the shit out of u because u keep coming back looking for more. Your whole above it all attitude really sucks. And its always the same stic. and if its the stuff he released in the 80's that keeps u hanging on then its the same deal. He fucked the shit out of you 20 years ago and u can't let go. That's some sad shit on your part. I would think that u would have better things to do besides slaging Prince off every oppurtunity u get. U obviously have a personal problem with Prince whether in real-life or in some fantasy going on in your brain. Seek help!

sarkozyiszeman said:

I also found that out from Michael Bland!

Giovanni777 said:

Did he tell you the story with Miles Davis playing the piano while he and Prince were having an ice cream. Prince was so amazed by what Miles Davis was playing that he let the ice cream drip all over his clothes.
They were both very shy and impressed by Miles.

How typical that this thread had to descend into the usual debate. It started as a question about time signatures and then a few made comments on how they thought Prince's music could/would be enhanced through a greater understanding of theory. This statement was then attacked in the usual manner by those who chose not to read the comments fully or, more so, read between the lines.

I for one absolutely love the majority of Prince's music. Not all of it but a good majority. And there are parts that truly lift or touch me. He's has a real talent that's for sure.

But, and please don't place me on the cross, he, like any other human being on the planet at any point in time, would benefit from a greater understanding of musical theory. To argue against that is pure madness. Like any activity in our lives a little knowledge goes an incredible way. Were it not for the fact that I understand the Circle of Fifths I would have to use trial and error to put chord progressions together. A little knowledge helps so much. And whilst the theory is learnt so too is the practical side. This is how we learn and better ourselves surely?

Sure, an artist needs feeling, the same as he also needs to know where to put his fingers. But knowing why it sounds the way it does only betters his eventual output.

Mind. Heart. Body. Think about it.

sarkozyiszeman said:

I wasn't slanging anybody, or suggesting that we should stifle discussion. Merely making a plea for rational debate and intelligent insight rather than knee-jerk reactions to anything which could be construed as criticism of Prince.

On the other hand, if you really do think Sarkozy is 'ze man', I'd be happy to get into a slanging match over that...but that's a topic for another forum...

cathys said:

Whenever you want. He is ZE man for my country full of retarded socialists who still believe in fucking Marx.

[Edited 3/26/08 9:15am]

iloveannie said:

I'm not sure that I agree that an understanding of musical theory would make a musician necessarily better. I think it would make a classically trained musician better, but if your route to writing music is through your ears, a whole lot of theory probably isn't going to help much.

My dad is classically trained, and I am not. He used to say to me when I was younger, no son you can't put those notes with those, it's not correct, I used to say why not, it sounds right. And that is the problem in my view with musical theory, it's not conducive to being creative. From what i understand of most prominent Jazz artists they spend years learning the theory, then go on try to unlearn it to progress!!

As far as time signatures go, it would be good to hear a 5/4 time, or something a little more musically challenging by prince, but then it probably wouldn't be very good pop music?

Bewdy said:

It is. Trust me.

Not that it would have anything to do with making "better" music or not, but the process would definitely be easier.

Bewdy said:

Well, of course it's not. But it doesn't contradict creativity either. Theory is just facts. Nothing you can do about it, really.

Knowing musical theory is like knowing the streets of a city - when there's a certain place you want to go, it's easy because you know the way. And the places you don't want to go, you simply don't go to.

And jazz artists (or any other artists) don't actually unlearn the theory - they simply know it well enough to not feel restricted by it.
[Edited 3/26/08 15:48pm]

sarkozyiszeman said:

Oh really? and who are those people who believe so much in Marx?
I would be very interested to know that.

kanamit said:

Libération, Le Nouvel Observateur, Charlie Hebdo, L'Humanité, Le Canard Enchaîné. They are all refusing to accept capitalism and the fact we have to modernize our country to compete with the world.

sarkozyiszeman said:

Good to see you, Sarko man.

[/quote]

I'm not sure that I agree that an understanding of musical theory would make a musician necessarily better. I think it would make a classically trained musician better, but if your route to writing music is through your ears, a whole lot of theory probably isn't going to help much.

My dad is classically trained, and I am not. He used to say to me when I was younger, no son you can't put those notes with those, it's not correct, I used to say why not, it sounds right. And that is the problem in my view with musical theory, it's not conducive to being creative. From what i understand of most prominent Jazz artists they spend years learning the theory, then go on try to unlearn it to progress!!

As far as time signatures go, it would be good to hear a 5/4 time, or something a little more musically challenging by prince, but then it probably wouldn't be very good pop music?[/quote]

There are some trained musicians who've got the goods naturally like Frank Zappa, Bernie Worrell, Sly Stone just to name a few. Now if JB had learned theory we may have never known "The One".
I think Prince music is just fine the way he made it. As for his guitar playing, I believe he always had the goods. You can even hear it on all those early demos. Being a guitarist there's no denying that his style is now very polished. I definitely hear the evolution he's made as a guitar player
[Edited 3/27/08 3:49am]