... this thought occurred to me earlier on today whilst watching some buffoonery on a music channel that passed from rap music. Do you think Prince's reaction to the phenomenon of rap music was the moment his star started its wane? His comic dismissal on The Black Album, followed by his clumsy hiring and sustained use of Tony M and that other guy off Graffiti Bridge.... can't remember, can't be bot....TC Ellis (shit, how come I can remember stuff like that and still not remember my Mum's birthday?)... shows him to have completely misjudged this new musical genre/movement. It seems weird now, but the force that is rap - and like all musical genres for every Chuck D, De La Soul, Mick Skinner, etc there's always a Vanilla Ice, Tony M or Lady Sovereign... y'know, joke artists, boy-bands of the genre - was some casually ignored by Prince, up until that point THE trend setter of the 80s/90s (shut up Madonna), certainly THE artist of the 80s/90s. It was probably from this point forward that Prince stopped getting popular music - wth the brief hiatus of TMBGITW - and only recently that he's now started to recover... in the mainstream I mean... I mean, I know we all still got him... we're clever...

Shit, I ramble...

Q: When Prince dismissed rap did he make a mistake - showing that he was, in fact, not entirely down with the kids, and has it taken him this long to have restored his 'bizness' credibility?

Also, has his reaction also undermined the limited but obvious skill he has in delivering spoken word songs?

I don't know, can only speak for myself...

The buttless pants thing did my head in for a while.

But then I came back.

No

So when did the crown slip? If not when Prince laughed at rap, when?

I'm not sure the crown has slipped, at least not in my book anyway. Sure Prince doesn't do the type of music that he use to do but there's no one out there today that can take his place. The crown is HIS. I left Prince for a long time back in the early 90's but came back mostly out of curiousity and was totally blown away by how great that man is, no one can compare to him, no one.

wlcm2thdwn said:

SO true!

the crown slipped when he put out planet earth

wlcm2thdwn said:

I agree!

I don't think the crown slipped. I think it acquired a patina. That's appealing to people who are older and know that patina adds value.

Children, on the other hand, like to play with things that are shiny and new.

I have a theory on the crown slipping:

I think Prince slipped the crown off himself. I am thinking about lyrics from "My Name is Prince" about seeing the Top and it being just a dream.

Probably somewhere in 1990-92 period when My Name is Prince was being developed Prince decided he did not want the crown anymore and was slowly planning his escape from it, it could be fame, Warner Bros, idolatry, whatever a crown represents. And for years he probably saw where the music business was headed and planning his escape and survival from it.

Just an idea.

Prince cares more about his soul and his music, then having the fame.

Let's see it's his imagery, lyrical content, sound, and production that rappers have coasted on and used to run the industry into the ground because they don't have the foundation of being a real musician behind it.

He's survived changing tastes and will continue to do so. He's not hot with teens, but he's still kicking.

Who exactly has replaced him as far as everything people think he brings to the table and has "lost?"

His mainstream appeal never left, he just chose to act like an ass, but the second he wanted to play that game people came running.

As far as his spoken word songs, I think he still has it in him, but for some reason he obviously enjoys rapping and maybe somehow thinks he should be doing it.

now that i look back on it i understand why he dissed it, we gen xérs made him rich but as i've said before prince is a boomer he was actually 10-15 years older than us. rap was for us by us, prince was a hodge podge of visuals and styles we were too young to remember from the jimi hendrix ruffle shirts to the james brown/sly stone styled grooves. my mom used to tell me all the time, that boy aint new, prince is 10 years older than me,8 years younger than my mom, of course he didnt like rap.

dreamshaman32 said:

I don't think the fact that he didn't care for rap is strictly an age thing. Prince is a musician - naturally, he's going to look down on a form of "music" that really isn't.

He used spoken-word in a lot of his own compositions (Lady Cab Driver, anyone?), but he always wrote original music to run under it - or sampled his own work.

Fortunately the crown only slipped but never fell off. Hey, the little guy is only human and we all make mistakes. Tony M was certainly one of, if not THE, largest.

I believe Prince had an uneasy acceptance of Rap as a force in music, for a long time Rap was downplayed and many a top exec claimed it wouldn't last. Boy were they ever WRONG.

He's toyed with it, found that he himself can't rap credibly, and has sort of moved on. He's experimented with unknown outsiders (stand up Tony) and failed there as well. He's invited incredible masters (Chuck D) but to luke warm reviews (IMHO) but that doesn't mean he'll give up on it for good. It's just another tool in his repertoire. He has produced a few shining moments, I like the bit in Alphabet St. and on It's gonna be a beautiful night. He's not rappin but it's good.

I think Mr. Goodnight is probably one of his personal best attempts at rappin' because he's good at the whole smooth thing.

wlcm2thdwn said:

I only disliked the moments he shared his precious time on stage with Larry Graham.

I find this man like an old chewing gum that got stuck underneath my sole.

RedKite said:

I think you're dead right

Prince's early success was due to a combination of his own style fused with that of his predecessors (JB, Sly, Jimi Hendrix, Santana, etc.) It was a marriage made in heaven, and garnered him the most success.

Rap had no business in Prince's world . . . I think he adopted that to appeal to the mainstream. What happened, IMO, is that he compromised his artistic integrity in doing so.

I'm all for diversity in his music, but he already had rock/pop/R&B/soul/blues/dance covered . . . that was enough!

Jeffiner said:

He wanted out of the WB game and though he chose kind of a fuckup way to go about it, in the long run he was ultimately proven right. For years he was the butt of jokes and some people genuinely feared he'd lost his nut as badly as one Mr. Jackson had. But years later, those same folk that laughed are apologizing and admitting he had a point.

He may have gone about his shift in an oddball way, but in the end it's what he chose to do and seems happier for it.

I think it was part of it.
Im not really sure what happened it seems Prince in some ways was trying to get in
on the vibe of popular music at the time, he even started almost developing the machismo Gangsta image I cant remember the song but there's a clip with him and Tony M doing the homeboy thing btw I thought that looked so fake
and bizzare seeing Prince trying to put on that image its so not him.

The Chaos and Disorder cover art made me think he was picking up on the cynical grunge vibe of the time, there was a few rocky songs but the overall music didnt seem to stick with any style more amixed bag. C&D wasnt a terrible album is quite likeable in parts but somehow just not great one either. I love Prince but yeah I dont know after a certain point in time I find many of the albums betweeen mediocre and good to some very good, but at some point something did change.

meow85 said:

I dont know what he was going through with WB Im not saying he did wrong thing to leave them.

But the back in the day when it was announced he's leaving them and he's gonna now be free to do any music he wants I was hyped in anticipation I was thinking wow he,ll probably churn o0ut some really interesting alternative stuff that people really woudnt expect ... then what did we get Come, Chaos and Disorder etc.
Im not saying I didnt like a lot of the music he's made post Warner he's Prince but I dunno I dont think his music post Warner changed greatly in terms of what
I may have anticipaeted and personally I think his albums when he was under Warner had been more consistant, that was during the period he was on a roll.

PeaceandLoveCowgirl said:

Quotes like yours.....why I keep coming back. So funny.

wlcm2thdwn said:

Yes and exactly

I don't think it was a crown.
I think it was more of a tiara.

Whats the difference between Tony M and Chuck D? I've never "got" rap and could never tell the difference between someone who's touted as great and someone everone laughs at.

Whenever I ask this question to a few friends who are into rap, they just roll their eyes and make comments like "If you dont get it, theres no point in explaining it" ... Assholes

Illustrator said:

Copycat said:

Indeed !!

I dont think rap has anything to do with slipping, he's been experimenting with rap and spoken word since 81(vanity 6, annie christian).
we all know he spent alot of time in new york in the early 80s, i'm sure he witnessed and understood the rap scene.

I believe he took a wrong turn very similar to andre cymone and his new wave thang.
I dont believe hes slipped either.
nobody has his stats.