I personally think Prince is way ahead of the other musicians with protecting his work on the internet. I was just curious how many of his fans feel the same?
ie: Copyright of his music, videos, lyrics from misuse.
Copyright of his image: pictures and symbol from misuse.
Abuse of his image: ALL forms!

Do you as his fan support his decision or not?

Let's discuss.

I know where you are coming from but take Radiohead, financially has it done them much good...? but it was great publicity as opposed to the way Prince is now perceived. People get angry they can't download for free thats one of the main reasons they get mad spouting 'its our right' that side of it I don't agree with. Its costs money to make music especially smaller artists, bigger artists can make money by touring but a lesser known artist might not make much so still not justifying album costs, you could argue thats not much different from the past... Oh I don't know the thing is the way Prince has gone about it hasn't gone down well but I do see where hes coming from(apart from the tattoo pics and baby dancing...)

there's already a thread on it with a 'Sticky' next to it here...


http://prince.org/msg/7/252851

Bless him its almost as if the fight with Warner and his lack of control just made him more control mad over copyright after and the way the internet is going he started to freak maybe about the future...

This is a tough subject. Its his work if he gives it a way for free prob wouldn't hurt him too much... but what future does it leave for smaller acts... maybe it forces people to perform live more. Thats a good thing I guess as its the best way to really judge how good someone is.

Maybe the future of pop music like say the likes of Britney and The Spice Girls is being used as an advertising tool and 'real' music constant touring...

If I was an artist right now I'd be worried about the future, its good publicity to give things away but you've still got to make a living(ok Prince is prob okay on that front)but what about artists just starting out. Will radio end up being on the internet a majority of the time, making it harder to trace copyright or do you think they'll always be say for example in the UK stations like Radio 1 on the BBC that will def pay copyright when playing something.

I expect more and more artists will be pushing for their music to be on tv, ads, films more than ever before for revenue there...

Sorry to go on... I see where Prince is going but hasn't gone down well. Radiohead have done ok with their fans opinions wise but not financially... how do artists secure their financial income...?

Flowerz said:

Damn I saw your post after typing all that!

i think tom waits has done good work protecting his intellectual property and likeness from the appropriate offenders.

i think the band negativland has made huge strides in helping to define "fair use" and what acceptable standards are.

i think prince is doing a fantastic job at illustrating extreme behavior.

Prince isn't really protecting his work, when he's suing fans for posting pictures of himself on the internet. That IMO has absolutely nothing to do with the music.

Say what you will, Prince is making a total and complete ass of himself.

if he doesn't quit it, he's gonna make it tough on independent artists
"free the music"

He's not protecting his work!

He is targeting fans.

If he cared about his work he wouldn't have those shitty sounding albums on the shelf he would have dvd audio re-issues or at least remasters.

i still can't get round my head y he's being selfish with his images & trying 2 stifle the forums/discussion.


Prince is on his pistol & shooter



[Edited 11/23/07 13:33pm]

For the 1000th time no one is being sued !!!!

ProgRocker said:

themusicthatcounts said:

I think that's a really good point - I think he's looking at the long-term future and a much bigger picture about where all this is going.....
[Edited 11/23/07 15:39pm]

laurarichardson said:

Thank U, I keep hearing the word sued. When did he file this lawsuit?

I do. Like it or not that man is getting his message across loud and clear.
[Edited 11/23/07 18:45pm]

If you take things into perspective....

It is very difficult for a musician to earn a living the way the internet is set up with.. bootlegs and misuse of their work. The only way musicians can really make money now is to tour and proceeds from sale of their image. So the image is really important to them because with a tarnished image they can really be out of work. Agree or disagree?
[Edited 11/23/07 22:18pm]

I support Prince. I love and support him because he is a visionary. Visionaries, like reformers, by definition shake things up and are therefore quite often unpopular. They take risks, they take their field to the next level, it takes guts. I believe, as Jeffiner said, that he is looking at a much bigger picture, at some entirely new order of things. Like visionaries, he is driven by a vision, a dream.
Here I can't help quoting from Geoffrey A. Moore's book 'Crossing the Chasm':

He says visionaries have a business goal that "involves taking a quantum leap forward in how business is conducted in their industry. They are not looking for an improvement, they are looking for a fundamental breakthrough. Visionaries drive the high-tech industry because they see the potential for an 'order-of-magnitude' return on investment and willingly take high risks to pursue that goal. They know they are going outside the mainstream, and they accept that as part of the price you pay when trying to leapfrog the competition."

I think this answers nicely most questions on the harm done to his image, fan base, sales, etc. caused by his actions.

Although I can't predict the outcome of Prince's current actions, I strongly believe that new solutions and business models will emerge from the current tensions between the mainstream and user-focused players in the digital media marketplace, of which he is the initiator.

Also, according to a research paper by Harvard's Berkman Center for Internet and Society, the Internet and especially the user-generated content and related online practices and spaces are still very poorly regulated, and the existing legislation is little nuanced.
Perhaps this is why Prince has taken it upon himself to regulate the use of his image and music. And amid the scarcity of nuanced legal standards, he is doing it his own way.
But like I said, hopefully such actions will spur the creation of new legislation and business models.
In any case, he has started the debate.

Now, far from me the idea that I'm not interested in what fans/online users are doing with Prince's material and other internet content, or in this big new digital culture of sharing, mixing and reappropriating online media. I find these trends extremely interesting and an unprecendented opportunity for freedom of speech and creativity. In fact I'm applying this fall to grad school to research precisely those trends next year.
But I still believe though that artists's rights should be protected online. And I'm also confident that Prince's current actions will in the long term contribute to this online culture by creating new models/spaces where everybody can cohabit and operate peacefully.
A dream? Utopia? Perhaps..., but then, you know, I have a thing for visionaries:)...

Jeffiner said:

Cheers Jeffiner

pplrain said:

Agree the image needs to be good, but then Prince blew everyone away this summer in London so I think that did him well here. As people in UK are mostly thinking 'yep hes perhaps a bit OTT with all this'(from what they've heard in press) but 'he was amazing live and thats what counts'

Flo6 said:

Couldn't agree more. One of the reasons I like him hes a visionary and takes risks in life, he doesn't just sit around criticising others he gets on with what he 'wants' to do and nothing else. Whether you agree with him or not I respect his passion for everything he does. This is starting to sound like I 'love' Prince, a bit famish, but its not. I love his music and he comes across as a very complex and deep individual which is inevitably interesting at the end of the day.
I do think in the long term, artists will be grateful of 'some' of the actions hes taking now(not all)
Whats Tom Waits done? I'm interested, I'll go look it up, I really like his lyrics And now its 'closing time' for my post

I have to say this is the main reason I like prince.org. I don't like obsessing about his personal life etc... but there are some really interesting discussions on here about the music industry at times which is a good read

themusicthatcounts said:

i agree. I wish i had never found out what Prince was like as a person

If Pirate Bay shuts down someone else will take over...will he also go after Rapidshare?...how will he find the files?, they are not all labeled "Prince bootlegs for free, screw Prince over while you can!" you know.

pplrain said:

Maybe they should be out of work. Being a musician is not a real job. Prince should work at Walmart or something and see what's better... 1) being a millionaire and dealing with people photoshopping your pics or 2) working at walmart and not being able to pay your bills.

Prince working at Walmart

liberation said:

Oh I know what you mean there, how can you control the internet...? But at the same time you want to control what you own... its such a toughie!

double
[Edited 11/24/07 5:25am]

I think the dancing baby on Youtube video was made just an "example" to make people aware of how valuble a musician's work is to him. Yeah, it seems a little silly now when we look at it, but realistically it is misappropriating a musician's work to make a video (although only 15 seconds) if you upload it onto the internet for public viewing. If you just use it for your personal collection, no one really knows or cares. Companies pay musician's to use their songs for commercial gain. Although the home video was just a little snippet, it still bring to point how importantly an musician views his work and does not want it misused because it was expensive for them to make it in the first place.

Photoshopping images and using in forums again is new territory and although you can do it, it does not make it OK. Copyrighted images are a no-no and you can get sued.
Right now the laws governing the internet are lax and so people do whatever. But I think that is going to change soon. I think the most probable solution would be for the copyright holder to hold a paypal account and everytime an infringer is caught... he must pay up! LOL! that would really stop people and make them re-think what they are doing. By the way Photoshop does have a clause it in their user agreement regarding copyright.

Below is a statement I am copying from another thread about the B3ta challenge and copyright infringement:
Prince’s image is copyrighted. The photographer or Prince has rights to photographs of his image unless the photographs are sold to a periodical. Unless the photographer or Prince give the individual permission to use photographs of his image, it is illegal to use it.
Scanned photographs from periodical etc are ILLEGAL as the periodical pays for the right to use them.
The photographs used for the B3ta challenge were photo-shopped (illegal), not promoting science or arts and so NOT “fair use”.
They were disparaging, humiliating, damaging to Prince’s public profile (of which he derives income) etc.
They were used for commercial website for commercial gain (generating traffic / ad space rental).

Having said all that, I still *love* Prince picture threads. Haha!

pplrain said:

1. I'm not even gonna waste my energy on the "dancing baby" aspect of this conversation because when all is said and done...Prince is going to lose big in court on this one. The lady suing him for misuse of the DMCA has the EFF assisting her in that fight and Prince is going down. The video in question was a few sec. snippet of a baby dancing to a song that happened to be Prince's. It wasn't posted for financial gain, or to take anything away from Prince...it was "Fair Use" and that'll be proven in court and Prince is going to be made to look look like a complete idiot for even letting it get that far or he'll settle when he realizes how badly he's going to lose.

2. B3ta.com is not a commercial website and it does not rent ad space. For your information anyone can put Google AdSense ads on their website, they do not generate income unless somebody clicks them so the very act of them being there is, doesn't mean the site was paid to put them there. Most people use Google AdSense ads to generate money for the recoup the cost of hosting a website.

3. All of those pictures were NOT disparaging, humiliating, or damaging to Prince's public profile...the majority of those photoshopped photos were indeed humorous and offered criticism of Prince by expression of the displeasure that has risen from his latest antics which makes those images...for the 1000th time...PARODIES protected by the FAIR USE clause of the Copyright Law!

themusicthatcounts said:

Yes!! they made between 2.5 to 5 million off of in rainbows...100% going to them...zero to labels, promotions tools or vendors.
[Edited 11/24/07 8:56am]

sosgemini said:

Prince would be good to do what they did then but what about all the folks who paid nothing for the album, do you think they should at least set a minimum or offer albums dirt cheap... hmm if they do that I wonder what would happen to how much you pay for songs on itunes individually... that could be good, 1pence a track. At the end of the day they just need to cover recording costs and any publicity they use.