Snap said:

Thats sort of the question I was pondering on at the start.

Prince thinks he has "The Truth"

If there is a "Truth" then is it a sensible thing to walk around thinking it is all subject to interpretation.

If there is a truth no matter what we choose, what "Feels right" too us - it might be wrong.

What a mistake to make!

Which religion says this?:

There is only one Creator God. God has no form and no gender and is never incarnate. The essence of God is truth. God is without hatred or fear, eternal, unborn and self-sustaining. All things are dependent on God's will.

mdiver said:

Actually, I think that the comments on Prince's website, in interviews as of late and in his songs...speak for themselves.

So I stand by what I said. Peace.

Here's what I believe: God,Family ,Prince ,Myself,Enjoyment and lot's of Sex now what Religion is that. Peace you All. Have a Good Night and Masturbate for me! Get rid of the Fucking Guilt and Live and forget Dogma and Interpretation and Analyzing Shit and you will be Free and Fine and Orgasm.Natasha has spoken. Believe it and Live it! Enjoy!!!

To understand the truth u have 2 disect the Truth, but how can u disect something that has so many different angles/views?? there's no truth only perception and your understanding of the things u perceive...

squirrelgrease said:

Peace to you too my fellow traveller. Sorry if I flared

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

So what you are saying basically is that Prince is an idealist? lol I can live with that, as I tend to be one too.

I don't know much about the JW religion so I can't really comment upon that aspect. I need to do a little studying on it to get more of a feel for it. However, you are right in that within our societies at this time, it would be very hard to get people to agree on one name for God. So we must take baby steps. If we can't get people to agree on one name for God, then perhaps we need to start by agreeing that all these names used are the same God. The problem that I see with all the religions and various beliefs is that we all think that we have the right God and that God by any other name is not our God.

I agree with what you are questioning. God knows the minds and hearts of men, and just because someone did not know the proper name of God does not mean God would not listen. I don't see God as being that petty.

And your last paragraph says it all. It's time to stop focusing on the way in which we worship, the rules and guidelines of how we worship, and begin focusing on God and living a loving life.

Janeau said:

Janeau I've always been curious how one comes to the decision to not believe in God. Throughout the ages it has always seemed almost inherit within people to believe in a higher power, almost as though it was a trait that was bred into us. What made you decide to not believe? Please share. So far this conversation has had many different beliefs, and each belief is valid for that individual, just as your belief is valid for you. I will not try to sway you to another belief because I feel we all must find our own way. So if you do want to share, you are safe with me. lol

ThreadBare said:

Makes sense. Now just to play a bit of devil's advocate, what if someone does not believe in Jesus, do you think that they are condemned to some kind of hell?

far2young said:

far2young you really seem to be searching for what you believe in yourself. That is a very good thing. The only advice that I can give (I know you didn't ask so please pardon this intrusion) is to keep searching. You will know within your heart when you find what works for you. Now there are differing beliefs, and there are differing interpretations to everything, but the underlying truth of it all is that God Is. There is no other way to interpret that. When you find the Truth, you know it, because you can't twist it, you can't change it, you can only live it. If you were to ask Prince what Truth is, he would probably say something along the lines that God is Love. If you were to ask another deeply spiritual person, they would probably say, God is everything. And so on and so forth. In each of these, God is. It's not something that you can point at and say, there it is. It's not something that you can really define with words. It is something that you feel at the very deepest core of yourself. There are times when I feel it so deep that I cry. There are other times when I'm questioning how do I know that I'm on the right track, that I barely feel it. But whether I feel it deeply or am just barely aware it's there, it is always there.

You are seeking, and that's the first step to finding.

starbuck said:

When you discover Truth, you realize that there is nothing to disect. It is what it is no matter how you look at it. This is just my belief. The problem with saying everything is only a perception is that you get into thinking that nothing has is permanent. Which on this plane everything is impermanent, (that's why saying I'll love you forever is a fallacy with the way many people view love). Energy (of which we are made up) is permanent. It may change shapes, vibrations, etc., but it remains. Now many believe that the energy we are made of is actually our soul. So that when we die physically, the energy of which we are, just changes form, so that there is no death. When a wave crashes into the shore, that wave doesn't disappear and cease to exist, it flows back into the ocean before becoming a wave again. It is a new wave, yet something of the old wave still exists within it. Not sure if this makes sense. But truth is sort of like that wave. It is what it is, regardless of any changes going on. Sometimes it runs too deep to see, and other times it's on the tip of your nose staring you in the face. But no matter what, it doesn't change. Please understand that what I say is only my opinion and my belief. What you think and say has just as much value as what I think and say. I'm just sharing my own views on what you've stated.

Goodday again Dreamlife it's nice to see you orging today. This thread has stirred up loads of interest while I have been off line but it is so good to see that out in the big wide world there are a lot of people searching to find their own way of making this a better world to live in.
Thankyou for your kind words and best wishes yesterday.
After our talk yesterday I did some research last night and looked into the origins of what the word love means.
Care to hear about them?

There is some truth in everything.

mdiver said:

And hello to you as well mdiver. Yes I saw that a lot of people had posted as well once I logged off yesterday. It's good that people are talking because that's the beginning to understanding each other. And yes, please share what you discovered.

Savannah said:

Yes Savannah there is. And the really groovy part about it all is that the same energy exists in everything.

DreamLife said:

OK here we go.
We have been talking about love.Love for others and the love that a god may have for us and us for him.(sorry to use the masculine term)

You said that you believe some of the bible and have elements of other beliefs as part of your formulation of "truth"

This start point (I also have some of the same ideas) lead me to research how the word love is used in the bible.
My research is interesting.
In the bible there are 4 words in Greek all of which we translate into love. Once again english is found to limit our vocabulary and understanding.
Here are the 4 words and relevant translations/meanings.

1. Eros- simply sexual attraction.
2. Storge- love based on blood relationship-brotherly love etc
3. Philia- Warm friendship love based on mutual esteem
4. Agape- A love based on principles and governed by such.

This info is from William Barclay's writings on the Greek Scriptures.

Interesting how other languages seem to explain things well.
I found this most enlightening.

mdiver said:

Interesting what you found. I've studied those in a religious comparison course in college. However, the dictionary defines "Agape" as follows:

a·ga·pe2 Pronunciation Key (ä-gäp, äg-p)
n.
1. Christianity. Love as revealed in Jesus, seen as spiritual and selfless and a model for humanity.
2. Love that is spiritual, not sexual, in its nature.
3. Christianity. In the early Christian Church, the love feast accompanied by Eucharistic celebration.


---
[Greek agap, love.]

Interesting definitions. I was simply looking at the Greek translation of the word with no religious (sp) connotation. This all brings me back to one of my points yesterday about principles in love. Do you think that this only (agape) has a religious (sp) application?
I don't as I stated yesterday.

I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going to quote something from a text I read. It is in relation to our ideas about love.

Now according to this text, there are only two pure emotions. Love and Fear. If you think about it, every other emotion stems from these two. Anger stems from fear. Hate stems from fear. Greed, jealousy, etc., stem from fear. On the other hand, happiness, joy, like, respect, etc stem from love.

"Fear is the energy which contracts, closes down, draws in, runs, hides, hoards, harms.
Love is the energy which expands, opens up, sends out, stays, reveals, shares, heals.
Fear wraps our bodies in clothing, love allows us to stand naked. Fear clings to and clutches all that we have, love gives all that we have away. Fear holds close, love holds dear. Fear grasps, love lets go. Fear rankles, love soothes. Fear attacks, love amends.
Every human thought, word, or deed is based in one emotion or the other. You have no choice about this because there is nothing else from which to choose. But you have free choice about which of these to select."

Now going by the above definition, we find that all love is based on One Love. Whether that love is defined as Eros, Agape, etc. It all stems from the one love. I believe that the Greeks were trying to define love and the differences in love between that for a mother/father, child, or lover, and even the love for friends and God. The only problem with that is that love is love no matter how you slice it, the only difference is the way in which we express that love to another.

Now regarding principles, they come from our understanding about love and our understanding about how to express love. They are basically the choices we make when we love someone. For instance, yesterday you mentioned your principle of not cheating. Now if you have chosen that principle based upon love and not fear, then it is a healthy principle to have. For instance, if you have chosen that principle because of the love you feel for your wife and you wish to respect her and her feelings, then you have made a healthy choice. If however the only reason you chose to live by that principle is because you fear your wife leaving you, then the principle is not healthy and you would need to look at your relationship a little more closely. Again these are only my opinions.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 7:14:14 PDT 2002 by DreamLife]

A very nice disecction of the idea. I agree wholeheartedly on the idea of how a principle is arrived at being at the core of if it is good or bad/ valid or invalid.
I do have a little difficulty in the idea of 1. all emotions coming from love or fear. I think that as humans we have a huge range of emotions that have roots all over the place plus some emotions could be attributed to both fear and love at the same time. 2.I also think that love is not the same always and just shown in different ways. My love for people is different for different people.
But that is just my opinion. For what it is worth

mdiver said:

And your opinion is worth a lot and just as valid as mine. Okay, let's look at this another way. Where does love come from? Does another create those emotions within you? Or do you create that love?

I think it comes from both.Between 2 people both have to work at loving each other. Without that it will not work in the long term. Love has to grow and mature as a relationship does, (I believe that to be so if your relationship is with another person or your "god")

mdiver said:

Hmmm, yes but where does love come from? Can you find a source for love? Or is it just a pure emotion that exists? Take for example a child, why does that child love their parents? They weren't taught what love is. They just do it. Even a child who has been abused will love their parents (especially younger kids). It isn't until they get older that they learn what hate is. Another can stimulate within you ideas that you like, and everyone has the power to love anyone. Even Hitler was loved and people considered him to evil incarnate. So where does love stem from?

In my opinion, it's a fallacy to say another makes you love them. There are characteristics that they have that you may enjoy, you may enjoy certain nuances that they have, but you love because you have allowed yourself to open up to that person. You love because loving is a natural and pure emotion. But where does it come from? And where is it contained? Is it in your heart? That tends to be where we feel love centered. But your heart is a muscle. So what is that central place where one feels love?

This I think brings us back to the start of our conversation today in that there are different types of love.
Using your example of a child.
When it is born it does not understand "love" yet it obviously loves it's parents - storge love - yet as it grows older it discovers gradually the different types of love and uses those. IE say at 5 yrs old. Why don't you hit your peers? Because it is wrong. This is an application of agape- principled love.Then as one grows older and gets close good friends this would be an application of philia love and as we all know we then move on to the fun stuff eros love. (Pardon me)
How does that sound for a theory?

mdiver said:

I think it sounds very good for theory. lol But you still haven't answered my question. lol Where does love come from? You see it's hard to answer that question because it is at the very core of our Self. Yes we begin to learn how to express love differently. To use your examples above, as we grow, we learn to express love of a friend in a different way than we express love of a parent. We then learn to love a lover in a different way than what we love a friend. (And yes to me, it is all love, the same love, just different facets of that love and the difference comes in when we show that love and how we show that love.) Let me use this analogy to describe love, at the very core of love it is the purest of energies, lets say the color is black, because black is the absence of color. So here is this pure love, no differences are discernible because it is all the one love. Now as we grow, we bein to add colors to the outside of this core. We have blue for the love of our parents, yellow for the love of our friends, red for the passionate love of a lover (these colors I'm chosing are arbitrary). And to those colors we add even more colors by the intensity of what we feel at any moment. For instance, I may love one friend a little more deeply than another, so the color will be slightly different. Etc. So finally we have this multicolored ball of love. It's beautiful to look at. It's fascinating the various colors, the various intensities, but at the core, it is still the same love. There is no difference between any of the loves we have for another, only the intensity and degree to which we show that intensity.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does make sense. I think that we just see love from different angles but believe in it none the less. Your description is very eloquent. Maybe I like to put my emotions into boxes and give it a name. Then again that is a trait of a man I suppose.
In answer to your question where does love come from?
A very wise man once said that "the seat of all motivation is the heart" however as you have pointed out the heart is just a muscle so how can that be associated with love etc. In my experience if I am really hurt emotionally it IS my HEART that hurts (a real physical feeling). I think that love comes from head and heart as a team. We just have to balance them out to make our love fit each situation as it arises.

I use to do the same, put my feelings into boxes in which I could label them. It was all very neat and orderly. lol That was until I really began to look at my emotions. I think for myself I do not want to limit what I feel by defining them, by putting them into boxes anymore. Putting them into boxes became a problem because there were times when my emotions would not fit into those boxes. So what do I do? Create more boxes?

Also one day it dawned on me that I am love. I know I know that sounds silly. But within ourselves we hold the capacity to create, to create love, to create hate. I realized that another could not create that within me because I was the one that chose how I felt about someone. So if I chose how to feel about someone, if I chose whether to open up to one but not to another, then the answer of love lay within me, not within them. I hope I'm explaining this okay.

Anyway, yes we both believe in love. We both have differing views on love. Neither view is less valid than the other. The greatest thing about all of this though is that we can choose to share our views and do so without feeling the need or the desire to put the other's views down. In doing so, we've opened another door. And this is where my first post came in. We've agreed on one thing, and other agreements have followed. Life is a beautiful thing!

DreamLife said:

I do, based on the Bible's definition of salvation being determined by whether a person accepts or rejects Christ as their savior. (romans 10:9-10, john 3:16, for examples)

Within that, anyone can follow Christ, assemble with other followers, study the Bible and maintain a prayer/devotional life -- regardless of their context. Sometimes, "Christian" becomes more of a social model than a litmus test concerning someone's reconciliation to God through Christ. God doesn't seem to support the notion of Stepford Children. The whole point of His Church is diversity, cooperation and ministry with Christ as the Head and unifying factor.