Thankyou for your tolerance of me. I do not wish to demean your views however this needs to be asked because it is at the core of this debate. What is your view of freedom?

mdiver said:

Let me ask you this...Why would you give someone freedom?

An all powerful God can make us do whatever He wants us to do. He could make us believe in Him if he so chose. He could make us worship Him, if that is His will. But if love is forced, is that love?

In regards to good and bad, let's look at it this way...

A man robs a store to feed his young children. Now to the man, he is doing good because he is taking care of his family in the only way he knows how. To the store, he is being bad because he has obviously taken something that does not belong to him. Which one is right? Which one is wrong? Good and bad are judgements that we place upon a situation or a thing. When in effect, that situation or thing is neither good nor bad, it is just exactly what it is, a situation or a thing. The good and bad come into play when we place a judgement upon it, when we decide that it is not or is what we have decided is good for ourselves.

far2young said:

Who said we were wrong? Whatever choice you make is the right choice for you at that moment. Now later you may rethink that choice, and wonder where your head was at the moment in which you made the choice, but the choice was right for you at that moment.

You know we tend to put upon God (an unearthly being) the same fallacies and vices that we as people use. It is as though we are giving God human traits and thereby lessening His power or His being. We are saying that because we cannot easily forgive another for any transgression against ourselves that means that God cannot forgive us for any transgression. We say that because we cannot love everyone equally, that God then cannot love anyone equally. In our own minds we lessen who, what, and where God is, because we ourselves cannot comprehend being a total being of Love.

I have a book suggestion for both of you, if you would enjoy reading it. (In fact email me through the org with your addresses and I will buy you both a copy.) It is called Conversations with God. I've seen others talk about the book here, so I know I'm not the only one to have read it, but it follows closely with what I believe. Again I'm not trying to tell you how to believe, because that is something you both must decide on your own. I just think that book is an excellent read and it hits upon a lot of the things that we are discussing here. And explains much more eloquently than I ever could.

mdiver said:

My view of freedom is that it is a beautiful thing.

Let me ask you this...Why would you give someone freedom?

Don't we all want freedom?

An all powerful God can make us do whatever He wants us to do. He could make us believe in Him if he so chose. He could make us worship Him, if that is His will. But if love is forced, is that love?

I agree entirely. So if He wants us to love him then we have to choose- correct? If we choose that implies another course-correct? Back to relativity-this course must have a finish and therefore consequence

In regards to good and bad, let's look at it this way...

A man robs a store to feed his young children. Now to the man, he is doing good because he is taking care of his family in the only way he knows how. To the store, he is being bad because he has obviously taken something that does not belong to him. Which one is right? Which one is wrong? Good and bad are judgements that we place upon a situation or a thing. When in effect, that situation or thing is neither good nor bad, it is just exactly what it is, a situation or a thing. The good and bad come into play when we place a judgement upon it, when we decide that it is not or is what we have decided is good for ourselves.[/quote]
I don't agree. This is short sighted and only takes into account the IMMEDIATE situation and assumes no higher source of morals and principles. If a man believes in a higher being and wishes to do as he should (according to his beliefs) he will view displeasing his "god" as of higher importance than his immediate need.
Example- If you had to murder to live would you?

DreamLife said:

Pardon me but that means nothing. Of course it is beautiful but what is true freedom.
Freedom from consequences?
Freedom from retaliation?
Or just being allowed to choose?

mdiver said:

Again, why would you give someone freedom? Is it because you feel we all want freedom? There are those that don't. They continuously make decisions to keep themselves enslaved in some way, whether it is enslaved to money, power, sex, etc. True freedom to me is allowing another to be totally who they are, even if who they are is contrary to what I want for them.

mdiver said:

Hmmm, but what if the consequence is unconditional love? Of course if we choose to not love (an opposite and equal reaction) would then be to be loved.

mdiver said:

All there is is NOW. You cannot live in the future, though you can dream of the future or plan for a future. And if you plan, make sure you take into account how the things you do now, may change what you've planned for later. If a man believes in a higher being, then everything he does NOW will reflect that belief, and thus he will live his life with Love. And if he believes in an all loving God, then he knows he can't displease his "God" because his "God" will love him. His god may only want what is best for him, but a God of love cannot be displeased because that God will only love more deeply.

DreamLife said:

So are you saying that we can "transgress" against God, but he would forgive us anyway?

How is that a transgression?

Why would he forgive me if I wasn't sorry?

Why would he need to forgive me if it didn't hurt him?

Why did he give me a conscience if he wanted me to have absolute free will?

Why is he letting people exercise there "free will" and there right to "decide at that time" in a way that hurts the people he loves?

I am not saying you are not right, you could be! But your arguement doesn't satisfy my desire to know the answers to these questions.

If there is a God and he made us then I think it is unjust to not answer these questions.

I would like to think he is Just and has given us the answers somehow.

I would also like to think that as a loving parent gives guidelines and discipline to their children to help them have a happy life, so a Creator would give us some pointers.

Thanks for your views, it's been interesting and you are a very respectful, thoughtful and empathetic individual. I have to log off now!

Byee

DreamLife said:

Of course love is important but love has many different facets. And principles are a part of that. I love my wife but that love stops me from shagging everything that moves.Is that principle built in to me, why do i choose to live by it? It would displease my wife if I did shag someone else but does that mean she does not love me. And believe me I have had that done to me and it did displease me and not because I didn't love my ex.
If there is a god then he would no doubt be the personification of love (having invented it) so is it possible to have love without principles?

mdiver said:

Hmm, so you weren't asking my view on freedom but how I would define freedom?

That's a hard word for me to define. To be free from one thing, is to be enslaved to another. Sometimes words can't define deeply held beliefs, because those beliefs go beyond words, but I'll try.

Freedom isn't about consequence. It isn't about retaliation. For instance, if you choose to slap someone (you have the freedom to make that choice) then you know that the person you have slapped has the freedom to make the choice to slap you back. Therefore to be free to act does not mean you are free from consequence or retaliation. Freedom is about choices. And it is about love. It is about acceptance.

I guess my question becomes more a question of why would a God who created us want to punish us? God gives unconditional Love, so why would God punish us? We view the love of our parents as unconditional and yet they punish us. They say they punish us because they love us. Yet there are conditions on their love. "Do as I say..." "You better not do that or I will punish you..." We view God as a parent so that if those conditions exist upon us by our own parents, then God's love must hold those same conditions. We cannot fathom a love without condition. We cannot fathom the ability to be loved no matter what we do. If we cannot do that ourselves, then how can we expect God to do that. It is in that belief alone that we have made God powerless within our minds.

far2young said:

There is only one truth and it has nothing to do with religion. Religion has caused more hate among us than anything else. The events going on here and in the Middle East speak for themselves and is evidence of religion gone wild. The truth can be found in St. Matthew 19:19

...Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Even if there were no Bible, human nature should dictate that we at least be civil to each other and try to live among each other without destoying ourselves and this beautiful planet the Creator has given us.

DreamLife said:

It seems that we agree on a lot of things.
It seems that you have a belief in God and his love.
My knowledge is limited but it seems that this whole debate revolves around one thing. Does God love us no matter what we do?

I am assuming that you are Christian, please excuse me if I am wrong.

As far as my limited biblical knowledge goes I can remember from the moments I paid attention in Religious ED these 2 things:

The Flood
Soddom and Gomorrah

Were these not God punishing the "evil"?
Maybe I am mis-informed but this seems to assume that we can displease this "God"

I suppose that depends on who wrote the bible. Is it just historical or is it fictional?

DreamLife said:

Matt. 7:22, 23:

Jesus Christ Speaking

“Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”

Even professing to be a Christian is not a guarantee that we are acceptably serving the true God.

Heb. 10:26, 27:

The Apostle Paul Speaking

“If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment.”

The Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit he will not lose his salvation.

It encourages faithfulness and obedience to Gods teachings

far2young said:

You bring up an excellent point. One cannot transgress against God. God does not forgive us, because their is nothing to forgive. Trying to explain things in terms that all can understand isn't always easy to do. I attempt to explain my beliefs and sometimes words fail me. lol

far2young said:

There are those that act against their conscience. Perhaps the conscience is God giving guidelines. But we are still free to choose whether to listen or to ignore. As far as hurting those that He loves, perhaps God holds a deeper Truth that we've yet to discover ourselves, that we cannot be hurt. Who we are goes much deeper than this body. We are spirits in which our body resides. Our body is only what we have decided to manifest ourselves as. Everything is made up of the same molecules and atoms, the only difference being in the way those molecules and atoms come together to form whatever we see. We feel pain because we choose to. We allow ourselves to within our freedom to do so. We place expectations on each other to act and react in a certain way, and when they do not act or react the way we expect them to, we hurt because they didn't live up to our expections. And what if we chose what situations we would face prior to being born? There is a belief that we have done exactly that, to help us along the way to a deeper understanding. In order to reach that deeper understanding we learn from the situations that we face each day.

For instance, if we wanted to learn the lesson of forgiving, then in order to learn that lesson, we need something to forgive, which means that someone has to do something to us that will lead us to being able to forgive. When people do something that hurts me, I look at it as a lesson. I don't look at it as that person being a "bad" person, but rather, what did I learn from this? Looking at things in this manner allows me to still be free to love them, to let go of whatever occured after I've learned the lesson, to be able to forgive and move on. Now on a higher level, I know that whatever occured didn't hurt who I really am, but that it was only a perceived hurt by me in order to learn.

far2young said:

I could very well be wrong. And I'm glad that my argument doesn't satisfy your desire to know the answers, because that means you are seeking, you are learning, you are growing. Never ever stop seeking. It's in the seeking that the answers will come to you.

far2young said:

I believe that He has given us those answers. And that we already know the answers, it's just a matter of remembering. Everything we ever want to know, we already contain. Look deep far2young, for you DO know the answers.

far2young said:

Again, perhaps our consciences are God speaking to us, guiding us. It's our choice whether we listen or not.

far2young said:

Thank you for the wonderful debate! You as well have been very respectful, thoughtful, and empathetic. You see, perhaps what we were just involved in, is exactly what Prince is getting at with his views. We chose to be civil and to respect each other's beliefs. We agreed to do this, even unconsciously. Once one agreement is reached, so can another be. Bye far2young and thank you.

mdiver said:

Why do you choose to live by that principle? Perhaps it is out of love that you choose to not do anything that would hurt your wife. If we all made choices out of love, rather than fear or hate, what kind of world would we live in? So stop that mdiver! You are giving us a bad reputation! lol j/k Yes I can see that it would displease your wife if you did that, but again, we are putting human frailities and feelings upon God. Do you believe that God could not rise above what we decide to do and take the higher road? And actually I don't believe God's love has anything to do with principles, which is entirely a human thing, but more to do with the fact that God is love. Total and unconditional love does not need principles, because everything that one would do within that love would be done in love.

mdiver said:

Actually I do not follow a religion. I do have deeply held beliefs and some of those beliefs (as in the Christ) do have their roots in Christianity, but I also have beliefs that have roots in Zen, Hinduism, etc and so on. I guess in a weird way one could say that I follow Love.

I guess it would depend upon how one chose to view the Bible. If one chooses to view the Bible in a total uncompromising way, as in it is the only word of God and there is no room for error within it's texts, then one could view the flood and Soddom and Gomorrah as punishment for evil deeds. If one views the Bible as more of a guideline to live by, then perhaps these two stories are based upon analogy. Or perhaps there are even sections in the book that were manmade to keep the congregation in line. Though I know that the story of the Flood can be found in many differing religions and beliefs, but how each religion chooses to see the reasoning for the flood differs.

I lean towards the latter two. I see the Bible as a guideline to live by, but I also see fear in the Bible. Fear God. Fear life. Follow this path only or the consequences will be damnation and hellfire. An almighty God could destroy an individual with a single thought. In fact, He could just make that person disappear as though they never existed. So why would He need to damn someone to hell? Is He really that vengeful that He desires to see someone punished for eternity? I don't believe so.

I believe that without principles we can not truly love. Love has to be based on a foundation of shared principle ar morals etc etc. Otherwise we could expect to reap love from all around us despite what we do. That would make us irresponsible and selfish because we all have desires in us that could hurt others but please us.
I do understand where you are coming from but I think that sometimes humans use LOVE as an excuse to shit on other people

SweeTea said:

Religions are not what divide, but those that worship in fear are what divide instead. But I agree with your sentiment. Very beautifully stated.

DreamLife said:

I don't agree. Reality is reality. We have perceptions or thoughts which can distort or make up lies about what's really going on. I agree that people such as schizophrenics see their own reality, but it's their own reality, not reality. I'd even say that you don't even have to have a definable mental illness to be way out of touch with reality!!

Reality or the TRUTH is distorted by people's beliefs, expectations, judgements etc. Check yourself for all these, verify if they're true or false and then reality or the truth reveals itself.

For example, the TRUTH is that right now I'm typing these words out on my computer and at some time you are now reading them. That's the truth.

DreamLife said:

I agree with you, a God of love could not torment someone eternally in hellfire. That is like saying a parent who holds there childs hand in the fire to punish it is a loving parent - it doesn't make sense.

However from my studies in the bible I can't say that I can see evidence of hellfire existing for instance Ecclesiastes 9:5 says " For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all"

"Nothing" - no matter if they were good or bad...

I think that a lot of peoples attitudes towards the Bible, Religion and even Princes current persona are based on missinformation.

Back at the beginning of the thread it was said that maybe we should try to get back to finding out "The Truth" - a major task, but it might help people get along more.

mdiver said:

Okay let's put it this way. I love you, but only if you do not cheat on me, only if you do not leave me, but only if you support me and take care of me. I love you but only if you give to charity and go to my church and listen to me everytime I want you to no matter how you are feeling at that moment and etc. etc. etc. Is that love or is that someone trying to make you be true to who they want you to be, not true to who you are? Believe me, I've gone through this whole gamut myself. I've placed these same expectations upon people (well not all of the ones I listed). I've been hurt when they've been true to who they are, and not true to who I wanted them to be. But I learned. I act and react with love. If someone cheats on me, then in essence it is not me they are hurting, but themselves. I can forgive them. However, if they cheat again and hurt themselves again, is it loving of me to allow them to continue hurting themselves? Because when they cheat, they do hurt themselves, they move away from their higher being and begin acting and reacting on a baser level. Sometimes loving someone is letting them go, to not give them the opportunity to continue to hurt themselves.

Love based on principles is good for you if that is what you want. But I would rather another be true to who they are, because being true to me, means they are not true to themselves, and thus are lying to me and themselves.

And is reaping love from all around us a "bad" thing? You say that like you think it is. If one loves someone deeply, then one will act and react out of love and will make those decisions with the other's feelings in mind.

DreamLife said:

I agree. I don't beleive that God would punish in hellfire etc. That would not be loving. However you mention fear of God. Why fear him if we can not displease him?

electricaddict said:

How do you define reality?

RC1914 said:

I agree. I'm not sure where exactly the belief in a hellfire began except within certain religions that wanted to use scare tactics to keep the congregation in line. But that has become such a common belief. People are so willing to believe what their preachers tell them that they aren't willing to look deeper within the texts themselves.

I also agree that finding out "The Truth" could help people to get along more, as long as they are open to the idea. There are those that are attempting to find the Truth but are very close minded in their views and it can end up causing even more separation.

The way I see love is this.

There will always be a conflict between how much we love ourselves and how much we love another. When this arises who comes first. Are we true to ourselves or do we lovingly put the other person first?

However it will always work if we follow this:

I love you so much that I will always put you first

and the other person beleives

I also love you so much that I will always put you first

This way if I am prepared to put you first and you are prepared to put me first then we are both being unselfish and will do nothing to hurt the other.I know it is idealistic but I am a believer in good people. However I also beleive that selfishness is a for of god in itself. If you put yourself first always you set yourself up as your own god.

mdiver said:

That is a very good question. I'm still trying to understand the minds that use fear as a tactic to get people to love God. There is fear throughout the Bible. Fear God. Fear God's justice. I try to keep in mind that the Bible was written by men, and though I do believe the Bible was divinely inspired, I also know that men can't help but to put their own slant on things. Many religions are based upon that fear. Fear the consequences of God's love? I can't believe that a God of love is one to be feared. King James had the Bible translated. Is it likely that a King that wanted his followers to believe as he did, or to act in the way he wanted, would have allowed any books in the Bible that were contrary to how he believed? Wouldn't he in fact want scare tactics used to keep the followers in line? I do question some things in the Bible because it is contradictory to other things in the Bible. When there are contradiction, you can bet that people (not God) had their hand in it. lol Again, this is all just my opinion, so please take it as such. lol

DreamLife said:

DreamLife said:

I couldn't have put it better myself! People try to force the bible to fit what they want to believe.

I think over the years the clergy have even made up bits to try and make it look like what they are preaching is in the bible even though it may have had it's roots elsewhere (like Hellfire)

Why else did they want the bible only in Latin? So that the masses couldn't have access to it and start questioning them and thus loose their fear - meaning the churches control was lost.

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?" Where else would God reside but within His own temple?

"Ye are gods". What is the deeper truth to this statement? Was God saying that we are God?

"All this and more will ye do" Jesus stated this. (These aren't exact quotes because I don't have my Bible with me.) Jesus made this comment saying that we would do all the things that he himself had done, and so much more. How can we raise the dead? We are mere mortals, not gods. Though God and Jesus seemed to believe in us so much more than we ourselves believe in us.

By necessity, there can be only one truth. The whole concept of truth involves the separation of comparable things.

So, if there is one truth, everything else must be false. And, from my experiences in life, I can tell ya: Jesus Christ, as described in the Bible, is the Truth, the One Truth, God's Word made flesh.

Now, this Truth doesn't preclude people who don't fit the traditional "Christian mold" from accepting and living by Him. One thing my pastor preaches is that Muslims can love and follow Jesus, as can Hindus and whoever else. The person's cultural context doesn't matter as much as their relationship with Him as Savior and saved.