haha ha ,of course prince uses pentatonic.
if you want to play rock or blues guitar pentatonic is the right scale most of the time.
but its definetly not true that prince plays only pentatonic
examples of non pentatonic playing by prince

computer blue
rainbow children (song)
xenophobia(song)
strolling
my summertime thing instrumental version
gett off (get some solo) on gett off maxi single

live playing he mixes everything pentatonic ,modes,chromatic,jazz scales.
so you better check again before saying "prince plays only pentatonic"

thebanishedone said:

name the scale he plays in each song then
and the mode for that matter
cause it sounds like pentatonic to me
with some wswitches to the harmonic major or minor and the eventual blues scale
which your right are all standards in a rock soloist repetoire
And you do know that jazz scales are blantantly not different from conventional rock scales
basically the same shit just a different style
The Aeolian, Lydian and Mixolydian etc...
IE the natural minor and majors etc...

AND I HAVE NEVER EEEEEVER heard prince use a chromatic scale...
please name the song
PLEAAASE PLEAASE PLEEEEEASE
name it
IM DYING FOR YOU TO NAME IT!

rainbow children song chromatic scale
xenophobia fast part chromatic scale

computer blue solo is played in minor but the actual melody he plays is a mode(modus,modico)
can't rember which one right now

thebanishedone said:

dude the in the rain bow children he plays a few flat note that makes it sound partly chromatic, but the main scale he dabbles in is the pentatoni/minor
And where in xenophobia dude?
that solo in the live version was obtuse, but wasn't chromatic
just because its somewhat off harmonyy doesn't make it chromatic, and isn't the way you use the scale...
Go listen to someThelonious monk u wanna hear chromatic scales...
[Edited 10/8/07 20:27pm]

r u sure about rainbow children a minor pentatonic?

no its definetly chromatic in rainbow kids song.
you said : Prince doesn't compose guitar licks

so what is prince solo on i could never take the place if its not composed?
or why you wanna treat me so bad solo or computer blue solo because he played those solos note by note live as it sounds on record.

thebanishedone said:

More like harmonic minor, with a little pentatonic in there...
and yah im sure...

Not to take credit away from Prince...
But he doesn't know how to play in just chromatics, shit not everyone can...
But i hate when people say that prince can play jazz guitar, when he plays fusion
a mix of scales...
and when he improvs wtf u think he improvs on? the damn pentatonic!
Brings us back to the point you can't write off cats like page and clapton because they use pentatonic...
its like the IT scale, and the Aeolian minor would probably second , blues etc...
it aint exotic...
Knowing scales dont make you a good guitarist either
Sting knows like 50 exotic scales and can play them well,
and hes not considered a great guitarist...
that just means he's got a doctorate in musical theory

so i have no idea what your trying to prove when it comes to scales, cause it doesn't mean anything

thebanishedone said:

stop mentioning computer blue, he composed the song on the Piano...
thats why it always sounds the same...
And with Why you want to treat me so bad, i wouldn't know, ive heard it live once on a bootlegg, didnt sound like the same solo to me

and do you know what chromatic means?
It means utalizing the full halfstep scale, IE, C, C#,D,D# etc...
now listen to the rainbow children track again... when the arangement is barring in the background he plays harmonic minor, he purposely dims out the instruments when he starts playing the flat notes, because he's switched to playing Modal, not necessarily chromatic, the three notes that he plays sounds mildly chroomatic because hes using one flat note a B
he plays B C C# etc...

EmbattledWarrior said:

hang on... if C, C#. D etc is chromatic... how is B, C, C# not? or am i confused by all this unnecessary jibber-jabber?

and to end the debate "Clapton. He's a bad MF. But he wears them flat shoes" Prince '95

harveya said:

two notes were in the previous scale being used, so its just a flat note rather han an apparent use of the chromatic scale

ive been up for like 18 hours working on research papers, and i've been making pit stops here so i dunno if everything is making sense...
I'll double check tommorow...

embatled warrior every recording of why you wanna treat me so bad have the same solo as on record,only when he says bitch then he goes into improvisation,but solo was always played ther same.
on sign o the time live concerts prince plays i could never take the place indetical as studio solo.
live version of last decembar have the same solo in studio

so you are definetly wrong prince composes his solo and rainbow children song maybe have minor scale but it also have chromatic scale

I won't even touch Rolling Stone again since they made that error.

When I wrote to the editor about it..
They never responded.

So you can wrap fish with the mag for all i care now.

[/b]The problem with lists....[b]

...there is a HUGE difference between what's "best" and what's "most popular".

Which then leads to the question...doesn't it really does depend upon who's compiling them list? I know this will sound very snooty, but what criteria are we using when we say "best"?

As an example: Prince is MY favourite guitarist of all time. I just like the way he does things. But I'm a guitar tutor myself, and have to admit that in terms of technical ability he's just not up there.

Technical ability? We're talking the Satriani's, Vai's of this world. Who frankly I find appalling to listen to. They're the movers and the shakers, in terms of doing things with the guitar that someone like some others couldn't.

I would rank Prince very much with Hendrix in terms of ability. Hendrix was not a technican. But he had a feel that is hard to copy, and of course4 - more importantly - he did it before everyone else, making his work timeless and vital.

The thing that really bugs me about these lists is that often people hastilly say their favourite artist (Billy Corgan anyone..?! Something tells me there are a lot of Smahing Pumkins fans voting on there, because he's technically vacant AND has little creative prowess either, so he falls down on both counts in my book)

Same with Cobain. What?! What did he actually DO that made him so important? I teach 9 year olds that can copy every lick he ever did - it's pretty basic stuff.

OK, I've ranted enough - but I wish people would judge on ACTUAL MERIT for a change.

Here's my list - argue away...

If "creative use of the instrument" floats your boat - ie. the 'innovators' - check out:

Vernon Reid
Jimi Hendrix
Tom Morello

Speed and accuracy? (yawn!)

Satriani
Vai
Eddie Van Halen

Feel for the instrument without being too hot in other areas?

Prince

Prince is also a master of something that gets overlooked in guitar music though - FUNK. I keep telling my students to give it a try: it's f**cking hard to get right, and execute with precision.

Beautiful use of phrasing?

Django Reindhart
John Williams
Dom Miller.

ONE MORE THING I HAVE TO SAY BEFORE I GO (SORRY, BUTI GOT A REAL BEE IN MY BONNET ABOUT THIS!):

"Popular" has NOTHING TO DO WITH ABILITY. So when we argue over these lists, can we please consider who's in the pop / rock charts' and why, and then ask ourselves whether they should really go down in rock history as great musicians. Artic f**king Monkeys, I'm looking at you...

Now I need to go and lie down.

iloveannie said:

OK - Prince has done some pretty cool stuff on the bass (777..., Let's Work are very tasty), but no, thisis accurate I would say. Prince doesn't belong in a list alongside this lot.

Check him out miming the solo on the Brits in '97. Shameful.

If you watch Prince ever do a solo (not that soloing is that important in bass playing), notice that it's always him ON TOP OF another bass player. He isn't a Pastorious. The worry with Prince is, that he would like to think he is.

And believe me, this is coming from HUUUUGE Prince fan. I love his music and respect his talent, but it's his songwriting, production prowess that does it for me. He's not as good as HE thinks he is.

Saying that, can I FUCK play some of the stuff he does! No chance. But that doesn't make him a guitar OR bass super-power. (lol)

I don't like how the critics overemphasize Rock and Blues. They're are some outstanding guitarists in Black music who never get props like Curtis Mayfield, Ernie Isley, and Jesse Johnson.

As for Prince, you can't overlook his versatility. He fuses styles better than anyone. His rythym/scratch guitar ability alone should put him in the Top 20 -- he is a helluva funk guitarist.Plus he shines on acoustic guitar. People judge him on his hit songs, but there's a whole lot of other songs that he's done. The acoustic version of "Wouldn't You Love to Love Me" is incredible (bootleg).

And the way he uses the guitar to create harmonies is unparalled.

When you take into account the extended versions and unreleased songs, 90% of the guys on this list have never put together an album that rocks harder than Purple Rain. Period!

And a word to all you musical professors who are getting into all the theory and technical aspects of guitar playing -- why are you on the sidelines? If you guys are so good or know so much about guitar playing, how come nobody has ever heard of you?

larasavage said:

Brilliant assessment!
and you're certainly right
out of all the guitar techniques funk playing is probably one of the most difficult.
Takes an extreme amount of discipline to master.
Very overlooked

harveya said:

And pop and folk etcetera.

harveya said:

Yet people never mention him as an inspiration. Why? Because ultimately his playing is faceless. (You know who sounds like Prince? Miko Weaver.) Is Prince a great guitar player? Sure, although the past ten years he's become really boring and predictable. Yet the solo on Just My Imagination from the 1988 Paard Van Troje gig still chokes me up. But does he belong in a top 100 of best guitarists ever? Perhaps at the bottom -- but certainly not at the top, because in the end he didn't introduce anything new. He doesn't have a sound.

BART VAN HEMELEN I SEE THAT YOU HATE PRINCE WITH A PASSION AND I KNOW IT HAS HGISTORY BEHIND IT.
BUT C'MON
PRINCE AT THE BOTTOM LIST ,HIS PLAYING FACELESS AND HE DONT HAVE A SOUND.
MIKO WEAVER SAID HIMSELF THAT PRINCE IS 10 TIMES BETTER GUITAR PLAYER.
MICHAEL BLAND SAID THAT PRINCE IS VIRTUOSO GUITAR PLAYER AND THAT PRINCE PLAYED CIRCLES AROUND SANTANA.

PRINCE IS NO STEVE VAI,BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN HIS TEHNIQ ISNT GREAT.
PRINCE WAS BORING ON RAVE 2000 DVD BUT AFTER 2002 HE IMPROVED VERY VERY VERY MUCH IN EVERY ASPECT OF HIS PLAYING.

The Top 100 is purely a Rock-n-Roll and Blues. Most of those guys on there never played any other styles. Whereas, Prince has shined on guitar across many different genres.

For all the technical greatness of many of these guys, it's never translated to great songs or albums. When you listening to the soulful passion of the solo in Purple Rain, it moves you regardless of scales, technique, etc. Thus, translating
emotion should be a criteria for guitar playing as well IMO.

And like I said earlier, Prince should be top 20 just based on his funky, rythymic playing. I never heard Clapton, Vai, Van Halen, etc. do a song like Kiss.

chopchop20 said:

plllllz
if that list involved funk musicians PRINCE WOULD BE there
Leo Nocentell , from the meters, Eddie Hazel, Phelps Collins, i can go on and on
and actually vai has done some funky songs in concert...

I'm just saying that this list is slanted towards Rock and Blues. But if I was choosing the best guitarist, it would be based on playing a variety of styles especially Funk. Though 1999 is a poorly mixed song IMO (too keyboard heavy) the guitar buried in the mix is as funky as it gets.

chopchop20 said:

Great points! People act like the music doesn't matter. It's about pseudo masculine competiveness that puts "virtuosity" over memorable inspiring music. And you're also correct about the inherent bias of these lists. The drummer lists are even more laughable.

And I also stopped by RS after this travesty. I got tired of the repeat covers given to average talents or tired "classic" rock gods.

jdcxc said:

thats a bit much...
No doubt Rolling Stone is a laughable excuse for a magazine and have cease to become relevant since the early 70s
cool...
But i think the problem is theres no such thing as the ultimate guitarist...
Its really based on perception...
A jazz guitarist would find the list laughable as well...
Same with Funk artist or Country...
Because each guitarist has their specialty
and you really can't define them that way...
For instance Neil Young and John Mayer are fantastic acoustic players...
Prince is so so on the acoustic playing
Whilst Prince can probably flame both of them on raw improvisation...
Now if you consider Soloing more important you consider prince better
If you consider acoustic playing more important you'd consider the ladder..
All lists are gonna be bull shit...
cause their is no way to weigh in on what concepts of the guitar are more important
I didn't see Andy Summers on their as well...
Who's technique was phenominal, and improvisational skills on par with prince because of his jazz background...
cat also is good on rhythm...
so yah...

I'm not a guitarist nor a musician. And I don't know the technical idiosyncrasies of music. However, if Andy Summer is not in the Top 100 (along with Prince) something is wrong.

I think that great musicians are "tasteful" -- know how to add the right touch to a song and performance. This is certainly true of Andy Summer and the Police. He didn't overpower you with chords and riffs but he added that special touch that made the song complete.

Prince had that touch on Purple Rain. Though some will argue that it wasn't a virtuoso effort or whatever, within the context of those songs -- everything worked. there's nothing you could really add or change with the songs on Purple Rain.

To me, the thing that has plagued Prince's music since Sign O' Times is his lack of touch or "tastefulness". He has been overindulgent -- try to do way too much. I understand that musicians feel a need to grow and stretch, but I think it has hurt Prince.

Prince referred to "1999" as an album when he was in the 3rd grade, however those simple ideas/songs were supported by cutting edge technology and production. Something he has severely lacked for almost 20 years. If Prince would stop trying to be Stevie Wonder, he could probably make great music again.

EmbattledWarrior said:[quote]

jdcxc said:

Have you heard the acoustic version of "Wouldn't You Love to Love ME"?

prince is not trying to be stevie wonder.
he still makes amazing music
his last masterpieces were rainbow children and news

chopchop20 said:[quote]

EmbattledWarrior said:

Yah thats avercage acoustic playing...
When i say acoustic playing i mean techniques like Flat Picking, and harmonic soloing, arpeggios
Prince is pretty much like every guitarist when it comes to the acoustic, nothing special
Cats like Neal Casal, Ryan Adams, and these are just ordinary acoustic guitarist

you fans get offended when Prince isn't the best at everything
face it ,
he's not
and its cool

I hate to sound morbid, but I don't think Prince will get the true respect he deserved until he is dead.