Ok, i'm not a music theorist or composer,
but i'm wondering who out there could submit
some of P's most "advanced" compositions in terms
of KEY (?)

all i can say is the Circle of 5th's blew me out of the water,
and i never recovered. so I'M PRESUMING that KEY choices
are the first element in an advanced composition.
Ex: C Major being the least advanced KEY and/or starting point.

i'm doing some research.
any comments and/or analysis you might have on P's complex song-writing skills
would be greatly appreciated.

ok, please don't let this thread die from _____.
surely someone on this site knows somethin' about music theory, eh?

Hmmm...I've taken music theory, but I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for. If you're looking for complex songs, I'd recommend some of his instrumental stuff. I would also recommend the track Rainbow Children. The solo section is fantastic, especially when he brings it all back together at the end.

my vote would go to some of the orchestration during the parade era..But that had a lot to do with the string writing of clair fischer who also did great work with Rufus back in the days.

I know about the circle of fifths. As far as Prince having a favorite key, I don't know. He writes in many different keys,

Also..
Any pro musician can play/write in any key..There is no such thing as a more "difficult" key to write in..A song in C can easily be transposed to another key..If your chords are in C..*say for example

C F G

that can easily be tranposed up a whole step to the key of D

D G A

Its strange on paper but very logical when a player has an instrument in front of him ..Its all patterns.

UCantHavaDaMango said:

could/would you venture a guess as to whether he tends to write in more major or minor keys?
thanks for continuing to post on this.

prettymansson said:

this is so DAMN hard for me to get my head around.
so if i were beginning to WRITE a song, then i could start in C Major for ease,
then you're saying it could all be easily transposed . . . by WHOM?
the arranger, the composer (after the fact sort of) and/or the musicians in real time at a gig even - on the spot?

GoldiLocks said:

I hate to disappoint you, but I really think he just writes in whatever key he feels like writing in. He probably picks whichever key or mode fits the mood of the song. It may also have to do which part of his vocal range he wants to utilize.

GoldiLocks said:

One of my music professors showed us how to make a little chart to use when transposing a piece of music. It would take only a few minutes to write out the chords in the new key. Some of my friends can transpose on the spot, but I can't think that fast while I'm playing.

Prince plays by ear
what he can "hear" he can write and play
he doesn't think of "keys" in the same way you and i might
tamar had mentioned that she was teaching him some music theory last year
i really think it'd help expand his songwriting abilities

btw, u might wanna check out this post about "Anna Stesia"
http://prince.org/msg/7/34290
it says Lovesexy was Prince's most complex piece of work
but don't forget... the article was written in 1992
and now predates most of his output

oh yeah, and regarding Prince's favorite key...
back in the day when i used to play around with a lot of his songs
it seemed to me that Bb-Major was his favorite, or else Eb-Major
but that was then, and still i could be wrong??
peace
[Edited 10/1/07 23:34pm]

Snap said:

Snap said:

that article is FASCINATING AND WAY ABOVE MY HEAD.
but i got the jist of it, i think.
apparently the music & lyrics were written in tandem leading to an incredible
gospel-based, tension and resolution.
(i claim) this is P's favorite subject - non-conformist faith/sex, their interplay,
and how they can be indivisible in an ideal world.

thank you SNAP for reminding me of this song.
i recall now, when it was released, it soared my spirit to heights previously unknown.
that, thanks to your reminder, was the defining moment for me when i decided P was my FAV artist.

GoldiLocks said:

Its not that hard..
are u playing guitar or piano..?
If its guitar for instance..
Learn BARRE CHORDS "google em"
Say you are playing a Bflat major
Just move up a whole step (two frets)
Then you are playing a C major
move up a half step (one fret)
and you are playing C# Major
move up another half step (one fret)
and you are playing a D major
The most important thing to learn is the name of the notes on your instrument and there are zillions of web pages that can give you reference charts on that.

Transposing simply means moving up or down to another key..
If you know a C chord then you know a D chord (its the same formula and the same 3 notes..just move it up a whole step *two frets on guitar..two notes on piano and you have the next key D..or move it up a half step on either instrument and you have the next key which would be C#)
Good Luck.

PS..
Different keys/chords give different moods ..major is often associated with upbeat and happy feelings..Thing KISS/Alphabet street

Minor is usually associated with moody/deeper feelings think when doves cry/dorthy parker.
[Edited 10/2/07 3:22am]

I think in terms of complexity, Lovesexy is right up there, all the songs join or flow into each other and have really complicated twists and turns in terms of melody, timing, tune etc. What I like about Lovesexy is that you can have a really complicated title track one moment, or really disjointed Dance On, and then you get I Wish U Heaven which is so simple. Positivity changes key and timing more than once especially with its Beatlesque verses and latin rhythmics, When 2 R in love has a really complex piano riff and Alphabet St has an off timed bassline (which is wonderful in fact). The album is sheer blissand a work or perfectionism from its creator.

There are many other complex records, like TRC, GB and Symbol. In Emancipation he tries so many different types of musical techniques as well as the not so mean feat of making all 3 discs exactly the same length!

Even the more "simple" records have moments of rare complexity, on Dirty Mind for example, listen to the break down and keys section on Head, not easy.

I have been trying to play Prince songs for years, and I can tell you he uses really copmlex chord structures, but as the other guy said - Im sure he plays whats in his head and hardly writes anything down - although I think there must be times when he does write music, how else would he communicate the complex horn arrangements for Parade and SOTT or communicate the arrangement requirements to Claire Fisher??

Im just saying the guy is a genius but he uses lots of techniques, I wouldnt be surprised if he is still learning new ones...

vinx98 said:

Its possible to learn something new EVERYTIME you pick up your instrument..
Any musician will tell you..There's Always something sombody knows that you DONT !
Prince is not even harmonically advanced compared to some other people making records..But yes he is a Genius !

prettymansson said:

I guess the trick is selecting the right techniques to use on your tracks to give them the right feel and vibe. Lots of people know lots techniques, but Prince uses the ones he know to full effect.

If the movie Graffiti Bridge was an indicator, then I'd say he composes his song on the computer (Mac) with the use of sequencing software (Logic, Cubase ?)


Basically he plays everything on the keyboard and records the note data with the computer. Transposing is very easy with this software and it allows him to print sheet music for arranging and performing without knowing advanced music theory.

LittleSister said:

i think that is one of many methods he has of composing, not that ive seen him compose, but with the different styles of music he makes, he probably has many diff methods to create. some people write with guitar riffs first and biuld on that, some people piano first, some people drums first, or possible vocals first and then build. I think Prince is very creative and uses many different techniques. its interesting to hear the KISS demo, its just him and a guitar, thats how the song started, all the other stuff came later and was built around that basic structure.

I've argued this on similar threads, but I don't believe he's strictly an 'ear' player as some fans like to suggest. Sure, he is great at playing by ear, but don't be fooled - he knows his theory. There are many interviews going back as far as his high school days where he talks about the importance of musicians knowing all their scales, modes and chords etc. Knowing this stuff actually makes you a better ear player, and allows you to hear and explore things you wouldn't have thought of previously.

It's ludicrous to suggest that someone who can sing, play guitar, bass, keys and drums at such a high level of ability to not have picked up on a few things theoretically along the way.

for what its worth.. prince seems to have composed many sings on the key of Bb major. G major and D major. Not that any of that means anything.

3121 said:

It reminds me of the lyric from Eletric Chair "It's like B major with E in the bass

UCantHavaDaMango said:

Anyone can transpose anything, anytime. (One of the most common reasons to do so would be to make it easier for a vocalist who needs the key to be higher or lower.) You just take it up a third...or a fifth...or whatever.

As for major versus minor...that's usually easy to tell just by listening to the music. For example, America and Sign 'O' The Times are written in a minor key. I would say, however, that Prince writes primarily in major keys.

ejnbmore said:

Isn't it "G flat major with an E in the bass"?

Genesia said:

No. He's pretty even in terms of writing in major or minor keys. In fact one of the defining characteristics of blues/jazz/funk/african-american styles is its combination of major and minor tonality. For example, the chord might be C7 (which contains a major third, E natural), but the soloist will often play a minor third (E flat), and it's that dissonance that gives it that 'blues' sound. "Sign 'O' The Times" is a great example - the bass line bends from E flat to E natural



[Edited 10/2/07 18:28pm]

GoldiLocks said:

Its only the least advanced key if your playing on keyboards

toejam said:

I think its the other way round, e flat with a G in the bass..


o lawd

^ C major is the 'easiest' on the piano because (as you mentioned) it's just all the 'white keys'. However, you really should begin to understand that keys/scales/chords etc. really aren't connected to whether its made up of 'black keys' or 'white keys'. You need to start analysing them as a series of patterns or sequences.

For example, to generate a major scale from any starting point, you just need to follow the sequence: T, T, S, T, T, T, S (where T = tone/whole step, S = semitone/half-step).

All major scales follow that same sequence.

It's the same for the pentatonic scale. It follows the sequence of T, T, T1/2, T, T1/2 (where T1/2 = tone and a half, or minor 3rd interval)

A chord is simply a similtaneous sound of various notes within a scale (usually every second note, but not always).

You really have to look at the piano as a repeating pattern of 12 semitones (halfsteps) rather than white notes, black notes, sharps or flats etc.

Once you begin to 'see' these patterns and relationships, it makes it easier to cross from piano to other instruments.