This is a "featured" topic! — From here you can jump to the « previous or next » featured topic.
New topic 
Printable Mindflux said: mehogeni said: AND i have worked for a record label and am currently working for a music video website now and have to disagree with your point of view...I don't know what label you worked for but I saw artists got money mainly through their concerts anyways and the label itself got tons of money from CD sales even now when CD sales are down yet they were not distributing the profits from these CDs evenly...Mr. President of John Doe Records and all the major execs got majority of profits but the artist itself got a miserable 5-10% of sales IF lucky....If he or any OTHER artist is so concerned with not getting enough money from their work then they should talk with the greedy labels who make these contracts and not sue the same people who provide a service where others can experience your work in a time where they dont have avenues to see/hear it Youtube and Myspace is a great thing for artists that gives them a chance to showcase their music when these mainstream networks and radio stations dont give a damn about them. To sue Youtube and the rest of these sites is basically like i said before "shooting yourself in the foot" and basically trying to take down a thing that could be AND IS a great marketing and promotional tool for him and future artists. If he is so concerned about his image then why doesnt he provide ways for us to see him how he wants to be seen besides 1 or 2 corny music videos a year?? Yes Prince fans are spoiled but *NEWSFLASH* ALL MUSIC FANS ACROSS THE GLOBE ARE spoiled whether they like Prince or Metallica or Garth Brooks...this is the information age and in this day and age music fans are no longer satisfied with just cds but wants to see concert footage, behind the scenes footage, etc...they WANT to feel a connection with the artist and since we have the means to do it, instead of artists acting like superior jackasses why not embrace this movement for what it is, take advantage of this trend, and provide new and innovative ways to provide information to your fans...if he think he's doing it by that sad dysfucntional site named 3121.com then that's crazy 
Ive worked in the music industry and for me to hear artists or anyone else boohoo about them not getting enough money is A JOKE...in this day and age there are soooo many unique ways for an artist to make money it's ridiculous..if his job is to make music then just as he changes his music or switches up his bands to get a new sound he can change his marketing strategies to reach out to different sets of audiences without suing anyone...it's really not that hard to do and he could use the money he spends on lawyers to REALLY think up some innovative mktg ideas or else finally hire a good mktg/promotional/PR team [Edited 9/19/07 17:14pm] [Edited 9/19/07 17:21pm] So many contradictions and a lack of logic in your post. aymiderham said she worked for a "major", which narrows it down somewhat, but its irrelevant anyway - most artists on majors are getting screwed and the label takes the cream. You know this yourself, as you surprisingly admit, because you know that artists have to take the financial risk and burden of touring in order to make money (touring, of course, being NOTHING to do with the label) - with all this in mind (the unfair contracts (which, by the way, you're feeble suggestion of artists "talking to the greedy labels" to sort it out is naieve in the extreme - you don't think people have tried that already? And, its not a new thing, Frank Zappa was making entire albums about the corruptness and un-fairness of the music industry 30 years ago! But still, the majors have such a stronghold over the business, that only something really radicle, like what Prince is doing, is going to change anything), the artists having to invent their own new ways to distribute their music (er, isn't this what a label is supposed to be doing for them?) you MUST support what Prince is doing in bypassing the labels and being an indpendent artist, surely? YouTube is not "a great marketing and promotional tool", as anyone in marketing will tell you that a great marketing tool is one which drives profitable revenue growth - artists don't make a cent from what is put on YouTube. It is a great consumer tool, but that's another story. Your argument will be that it allows them to reach a wider audience, but this is not proven. There are no statistics or evidence to support that and I very much doubt that people discover a new artist by randomly searching on YouTube. It is much more likely that you come across someone new to you by listening to the radio, watching TV, reading magazines, word-of-mouth, or perhaps ensuring 3 million people get a new copy of your cd for free??!!! Hey, there's a great idea  The majority of people searching for Prince content on YouTube will be fans already and particularly the obsessive completists and those that think they're entitled to ANYTHING for free.
YouTube is only a great profit-making tool for Google (why do you think they snapped it up at a cost of millions of dollars? To provide a service to everyone? Or because its such a great money-spinner?) And, why is it such a great money-spinner? Because they have relatively low overheads because THEY DON'T PRODUCE THEIR OWN CONTENT! Perfect. Now, that's fine if they have the rights to the content, but the material we are talking about here is copyrighted and is not YouTube's to show. Nor is it the fan's to upload for that matter. However, YouTube is the service provider and they should not be a conduit for people to just put up whatever they feel like. Would you be so quick to defend YouTube's right to put up anything if, say, a "mate" put up some personal video of you, perhaps in a compromising position, something you would rather not be aired to the public? I doubt it very much. Furthermore, after 30-years in the business, Prince does not need something like YouTube (a new starter in the business would find their "service" more useful) and there cannot be many people on the planet who do not already know who Prince is. You espouse again that fans demands should be met - why? Should a fan get everything they want? Is that the way the world works? Do you just stamp your feet and anything and everything you want comes to you? Of course not - why should Prince not do anything but whatever HE feels like with HIS creations? (and all this bullshit about the "information age" - have you seen stats on what most people use the net and YouTube for - its not exactly educational and culturally enriching stuff now, is it? ) And as for dissmissing the 3121 site - Prince was one of the pioneers of internet channel distribution and marketing, well-ahead of the game 10 years ago, its old hat, just another channel - and that is why he has now created and expoited a whole new channel of distribution, one that has been entirely successful, far more lucrative and goes beyond just getting his music out, but giving him massive media interest, whilst also shaking the roots of the music industry itself (an industry that, when Prince started, had more musicians running it then businessmen, unlike today) and music retailers to boot. Its a genius stroke, but most here seem too blind to see it. Ultimately, what does it matter to you anyhow, as to how he goes about distributing his product? He could go around on a bike throwing cds on your lawn like a paperboy, does it make ANY difference to you, the consumer? No - because, all that should matter to you is whether the product is enjoyable or not!
Its your last paragraph that really takes the biscuit - MOST musicians actually struggle to make a living out of this industry and some can only do it for a time, then find themselves working in a shoe-shop again, or something! Most artists find themselves at the mercy of massive corporate systems designed to benefit themselves and not the artists who create the product in the first place. And just what the hell are you talking about, this hiring of a marketing agency etc?? Have you been asleep for the past few months? Prince has just pulled off one of the most amazing marketing moves by a musician (with, no doubt, an expert team of lawyers to ensure fair practice and contracts), with multiple simultaneous effects, as already discussed, yet you suggest now that this is something he ought to be doing? You missed the party mate! Prince ought to be (and is, by many sectors, including marketing publications like the one above, marketing think-tanks and music industry analysts) applauded for this most recent move and, in the same vein, for his brave move to take on some of the biggest internet moguls there is, to protect content that is not THEIRS or the "fans" that post it, but HIS. [Edited 9/20/07 3:55am] and let me break it down for you..since I worked for a major label too..working in the industry I have seen some things...some good some bad....but you miss my one major point..These artists who get hit and abused by these labels, these artists who accept these bad contracts, these artists who accept the lack of promotion behind them honestly need to start blaming things on the record labels themselves and BET/MTV...instead of blaming Youtube/Ebay/Google for providing ways to see these artists when the labels barely want to support an artist unless they are popular with 12 year old girls or gyrating on stage...You say my post is full of hypocrisy but I believe your post is full of hypocrisy saying that Youtube is NOT a good marketing tool since you provide no evidence that it isn't. For examplea person puting up a popular video on Youtube can get wayyyy more hits and exposure than if that same person attempted to get his footage played on tv...It has been proven that people are watching less and less TV anyways so why wouldn't Youtube be a good marketing tool? I was a marketing major and not all things to expand your brand HAVE to generate revenue but as long as it creates a buzz than it should be embraced. Now I respect Prince's fight to take control of his image..however his concert footage is something that he wanted to project to the public and I don't understand why he now wants to pull things down like his concerts DIDn't happen, wanting to pull down a part of history that alot of his younger fans didnt get a chance to finish, pull down the stuff that some weren't able to attend because honestly we can't afford to pay nearly $300 for a ticket...and pulling them down without giving his fans a proper avenue to see his footage the way he wants us to see it....You shouldn't give fans EVERYTHING but to Give them nothing when they used to get everything from music videos to discounted tickets is simply ridiculous! Also another point I bring up...back to the artists....I have dealt with egos and stupidity from artists...Yes people, these people have egos and most are scared and alot are sensitive...I have seen artists crying in the bathroom about talking with executives yet the project this calm image on screen...but I digress...I talked about them getting their own marketing team because I treat an artist's relationship with a label like a woman with an abusive partner...they know things are wrong, they arent getting support yet they take the same beatings over and OVER again...YES THEIR JOB IS TO have a marketing team around them but comeon how many years have we heard the horror stories of these artists not getting the proper treatment..and like an abusive relationship these artists blame everyone and their mama except the one who is doing the abuse....they know things are wrong for YEARS like you mentioned with Zappa so why not get their own marketing team instead of that sad excuse of a label marketing/promotions dept instead of spending their advances on parties and bling??..and my major point which I don't think I conveyed clearly is...If you are going through an abusive cycle you either leave the label like Prince did or you hurt them...Prince was lucky enough to leave his label but others arent and are still stuck in bad situations/ban contracts, etc...suing Youtube is going to do something if he wins(which I think will negatively impact his image but thats another thing) but why sue ebay, youtube instead of suing the labels themselves??? Why doesnt Prince become the main supporter to gather artists signed with these labels and sue the labels itself??? Is it such a crazy idea to go in that direction????There is more than enough evidence to say "HEY THIS LABEL PROMISED TO SUPPORT ME AND they broke their promises....why not sue BET/MTV...the lawsuit I admit could be thrown out but it doesnt have to be sucessful legally to work but send a message that artists are FED UP and makes them wake up..... but I think that would be a TRULY PRECENDENTIAL thing that shows he truly cares about the future of music and knows that these labels need to change their ways somehow someway...it could be the start of a battle and send a clear message...Together they can make a difference...If all these artists refused to make music for their labels today at the same time the labels might explode
This argument has NOTHING to do with whether artists are getting enoughmoney because they are getting the money, it just is not being peddled out correctly and to me threatening to sue youtube, housequake, whatever is almost like suing his fans instead of suing the people who are creating the problems within the music industry itself...so yes the Youtube suit could be about controlling his image but my point is if this is about money then there are other avenues to puruse besides suing these sites | |
- E-mail - orgNote -  Report post to moderator |
mehogeni said: Mindflux said: So many contradictions and a lack of logic in your post. aymiderham said she worked for a "major", which narrows it down somewhat, but its irrelevant anyway - most artists on majors are getting screwed and the label takes the cream. You know this yourself, as you surprisingly admit, because you know that artists have to take the financial risk and burden of touring in order to make money (touring, of course, being NOTHING to do with the label) - with all this in mind (the unfair contracts (which, by the way, you're feeble suggestion of artists "talking to the greedy labels" to sort it out is naieve in the extreme - you don't think people have tried that already? And, its not a new thing, Frank Zappa was making entire albums about the corruptness and un-fairness of the music industry 30 years ago! But still, the majors have such a stronghold over the business, that only something really radicle, like what Prince is doing, is going to change anything), the artists having to invent their own new ways to distribute their music (er, isn't this what a label is supposed to be doing for them?) you MUST support what Prince is doing in bypassing the labels and being an indpendent artist, surely? YouTube is not "a great marketing and promotional tool", as anyone in marketing will tell you that a great marketing tool is one which drives profitable revenue growth - artists don't make a cent from what is put on YouTube. It is a great consumer tool, but that's another story. Your argument will be that it allows them to reach a wider audience, but this is not proven. There are no statistics or evidence to support that and I very much doubt that people discover a new artist by randomly searching on YouTube. It is much more likely that you come across someone new to you by listening to the radio, watching TV, reading magazines, word-of-mouth, or perhaps ensuring 3 million people get a new copy of your cd for free??!!! Hey, there's a great idea The majority of people searching for Prince content on YouTube will be fans already and particularly the obsessive completists and those that think they're entitled to ANYTHING for free.
YouTube is only a great profit-making tool for Google (why do you think they snapped it up at a cost of millions of dollars? To provide a service to everyone? Or because its such a great money-spinner?) And, why is it such a great money-spinner? Because they have relatively low overheads because THEY DON'T PRODUCE THEIR OWN CONTENT! Perfect. Now, that's fine if they have the rights to the content, but the material we are talking about here is copyrighted and is not YouTube's to show. Nor is it the fan's to upload for that matter. However, YouTube is the service provider and they should not be a conduit for people to just put up whatever they feel like. Would you be so quick to defend YouTube's right to put up anything if, say, a "mate" put up some personal video of you, perhaps in a compromising position, something you would rather not be aired to the public? I doubt it very much. Furthermore, after 30-years in the business, Prince does not need something like YouTube (a new starter in the business would find their "service" more useful) and there cannot be many people on the planet who do not already know who Prince is. You espouse again that fans demands should be met - why? Should a fan get everything they want? Is that the way the world works? Do you just stamp your feet and anything and everything you want comes to you? Of course not - why should Prince not do anything but whatever HE feels like with HIS creations? (and all this bullshit about the "information age" - have you seen stats on what most people use the net and YouTube for - its not exactly educational and culturally enriching stuff now, is it? ) And as for dissmissing the 3121 site - Prince was one of the pioneers of internet channel distribution and marketing, well-ahead of the game 10 years ago, its old hat, just another channel - and that is why he has now created and expoited a whole new channel of distribution, one that has been entirely successful, far more lucrative and goes beyond just getting his music out, but giving him massive media interest, whilst also shaking the roots of the music industry itself (an industry that, when Prince started, had more musicians running it then businessmen, unlike today) and music retailers to boot. Its a genius stroke, but most here seem too blind to see it. Ultimately, what does it matter to you anyhow, as to how he goes about distributing his product? He could go around on a bike throwing cds on your lawn like a paperboy, does it make ANY difference to you, the consumer? No - because, all that should matter to you is whether the product is enjoyable or not!
Its your last paragraph that really takes the biscuit - MOST musicians actually struggle to make a living out of this industry and some can only do it for a time, then find themselves working in a shoe-shop again, or something! Most artists find themselves at the mercy of massive corporate systems designed to benefit themselves and not the artists who create the product in the first place. And just what the hell are you talking about, this hiring of a marketing agency etc?? Have you been asleep for the past few months? Prince has just pulled off one of the most amazing marketing moves by a musician (with, no doubt, an expert team of lawyers to ensure fair practice and contracts), with multiple simultaneous effects, as already discussed, yet you suggest now that this is something he ought to be doing? You missed the party mate! Prince ought to be (and is, by many sectors, including marketing publications like the one above, marketing think-tanks and music industry analysts) applauded for this most recent move and, in the same vein, for his brave move to take on some of the biggest internet moguls there is, to protect content that is not THEIRS or the "fans" that post it, but HIS. [Edited 9/20/07 3:55am] and let me break it down for you..since I worked for a major label too..working in the industry I have seen some things...some good some bad....but you miss my one major point..These artists who get hit and abused by these labels, these artists who accept these bad contracts, these artists who accept the lack of promotion behind them honestly need to start blaming things on the record labels themselves and BET/MTV...instead of blaming Youtube/Ebay/Google for providing ways to see these artists when the labels barely want to support an artist unless they are popular with 12 year old girls or gyrating on stage...You say my post is full of hypocrisy but I believe your post is full of hypocrisy saying that Youtube is NOT a good marketing tool since you provide no evidence that it isn't. For examplea person puting up a popular video on Youtube can get wayyyy more hits and exposure than if that same person attempted to get his footage played on tv...It has been proven that people are watching less and less TV anyways so why wouldn't Youtube be a good marketing tool? I was a marketing major and not all things to expand your brand HAVE to generate revenue but as long as it creates a buzz than it should be embraced. Now I respect Prince's fight to take control of his image..however his concert footage is something that he wanted to project to the public and I don't understand why he now wants to pull things down like his concerts DIDn't happen, wanting to pull down a part of history that alot of his younger fans didnt get a chance to finish, pull down the stuff that some weren't able to attend because honestly we can't afford to pay nearly $300 for a ticket...and pulling them down without giving his fans a proper avenue to see his footage the way he wants us to see it....You shouldn't give fans EVERYTHING but to Give them nothing when they used to get everything from music videos to discounted tickets is simply ridiculous! Also another point I bring up...back to the artists....I have dealt with egos and stupidity from artists...Yes people, these people have egos and most are scared and alot are sensitive...I have seen artists crying in the bathroom about talking with executives yet the project this calm image on screen...but I digress...I talked about them getting their own marketing team because I treat an artist's relationship with a label like a woman with an abusive partner...they know things are wrong, they arent getting support yet they take the same beatings over and OVER again...YES THEIR JOB IS TO have a marketing team around them but comeon how many years have we heard the horror stories of these artists not getting the proper treatment..and like an abusive relationship these artists blame everyone and their mama except the one who is doing the abuse....they know things are wrong for YEARS like you mentioned with Zappa so why not get their own marketing team instead of that sad excuse of a label marketing/promotions dept instead of spending their advances on parties and bling??..and my major point which I don't think I conveyed clearly is...If you are going through an abusive cycle you either leave the label like Prince did or you hurt them...Prince was lucky enough to leave his label but others arent and are still stuck in bad situations/ban contracts, etc...suing Youtube is going to do something if he wins(which I think will negatively impact his image but thats another thing) but why sue ebay, youtube instead of suing the labels themselves??? Why doesnt Prince become the main supporter to gather artists signed with these labels and sue the labels itself??? Is it such a crazy idea to go in that direction????There is more than enough evidence to say "HEY THIS LABEL PROMISED TO SUPPORT ME AND they broke their promises....why not sue BET/MTV...the lawsuit I admit could be thrown out but it doesnt have to be sucessful legally to work but send a message that artists are FED UP and makes them wake up..... but I think that would be a TRULY PRECENDENTIAL thing that shows he truly cares about the future of music and knows that these labels need to change their ways somehow someway...it could be the start of a battle and send a clear message...Together they can make a difference...If all these artists refused to make music for their labels today at the same time the labels might explode
This argument has NOTHING to do with whether artists are getting enoughmoney because they are getting the money, it just is not being peddled out correctly and to me threatening to sue youtube, housequake, whatever is almost like suing his fans instead of suing the people who are creating the problems within the music industry itself...so yes the Youtube suit could be about controlling his image but my point is if this is about money then there are other avenues to puruse besides suing these sites...it is about his image which you and me are going to have to agree to disagree on but about money...OTHER AVENUES is key | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
TikiColadas said: SexyBeautifulOne said: Since his fans and not YouTube were the ones that were putting the stuff on YouTube that's the grounds for his "dispute with YouTube" it's pretty clear for anyone not caught in Prince fandemonium and damn sure will be clear to the Judge that his problem is NOT with YouTube but with his fans that put his stuff on YouTube to begin with! Especially considering that videos that were put up by the company that he has distributing his stuff are STILL on Youtube as I type this! The ones he has the problem with and are constantly snatched off are the ones put up by HIS fans so you tell me...that says WHAT? Hey, no harm or disrespect to you. Question?....If I created my own website called..."purpleprincevideos.com" and uploaded videos and live performances from my personal collection that includes commercially released DVD’s, television appearances, bootleg concerts etc., would I be "doing the legal right thing? What if I charged for advertisement on my site because now I have an enormous amount of traffic?? NOW, what if I still charge for advertisement and also let fans upload their own videos, live performance, etc from their own collection?? I am now making money directly or "indirectly" off of PRINCE, his music and image based on my traffic and advertisement charges REGARDLES of what PRINCE thinks, feels OR permission. IS this legal? Let me know. In reality PRINCE is protecting his music and art. I still do not see how this is a negative thing he is doing to his fans. I don't get it??? Not sure if you meant to but your question actually supports my theory! YouTube/Google (The Site Owners) are not the ones uploading Prince's videos...Prince's fans are...so the wrong doers here are the fans not YouTube/Google as you show in item #6 of their TOS. If Prince has a problem with the advertising revenue that YouTube is now making indirectly thanks to it's affiliation with Google, then none of Prince's stuff including the stuff put up by Universal should be on YouTube. Since he has no problem with YouTube collecting it's advertising revenue on those videos then it's pretty easy to see that his problems are only with the ones the fans up. | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
SexyBeautifulOne said: TikiColadas said: Hey, no harm or disrespect to you. Question?....If I created my own website called..."purpleprincevideos.com" and uploaded videos and live performances from my personal collection that includes commercially released DVD’s, television appearances, bootleg concerts etc., would I be "doing the legal right thing? What if I charged for advertisement on my site because now I have an enormous amount of traffic?? NOW, what if I still charge for advertisement and also let fans upload their own videos, live performance, etc from their own collection?? I am now making money directly or "indirectly" off of PRINCE, his music and image based on my traffic and advertisement charges REGARDLES of what PRINCE thinks, feels OR permission. IS this legal? Let me know. In reality PRINCE is protecting his music and art. I still do not see how this is a negative thing he is doing to his fans. I don't get it??? Not sure if you meant to but your question actually supports my theory! YouTube/Google (The Site Owners) are not the ones uploading Prince's videos...Prince's fans are...so the wrong doers here are the fans not YouTube/Google as you show in item #6 of their TOS. If Prince has a problem with the advertising revenue that YouTube is now making indirectly thanks to it's affiliation with Google, then none of Prince's stuff including the stuff put up by Universal should be on YouTube. Since he has no problem with YouTube collecting it's advertising revenue on those videos then it's pretty easy to see that his problems are only with the ones the fans up. No it doesn't! Its already been noted that the fans are wrong for uploading it and it is a direct contravention of YouTube's own rules and regulations. By rights, YouTube should cancel their accounts and remove the videos....but, they don't! YouTube isn't "affiliated" with Google, it is owned by Google. It doesn't "now" benefit in advertising revenue because of this, it simply was already doing well and Google wanted the revenue! You cannot say "if Prince has a problem" with some videos, then it should include stuff out up by Universal - ITS HIS STUFF!!! How many times does this point have to be made? If he chooses for a video to be up there, then that is ok - he can, and should, pick and choose what is available. No-one else should be uploading his material without his permission and YouTube should not be hosting it. So, you can theorise all you want - its a waste of time, because the law says that a person who owns the rights to a copyrighted product has the right to do with it what they choose and that anyone else cannot - end of story. ...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...
My dance project; www.zubzub.co.uk Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here; www.zubzub.bandcamp.com Go and glisten  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
mehogeni said: Mindflux said: So many contradictions and a lack of logic in your post. aymiderham said she worked for a "major", which narrows it down somewhat, but its irrelevant anyway - most artists on majors are getting screwed and the label takes the cream. You know this yourself, as you surprisingly admit, because you know that artists have to take the financial risk and burden of touring in order to make money (touring, of course, being NOTHING to do with the label) - with all this in mind (the unfair contracts (which, by the way, you're feeble suggestion of artists "talking to the greedy labels" to sort it out is naieve in the extreme - you don't think people have tried that already? And, its not a new thing, Frank Zappa was making entire albums about the corruptness and un-fairness of the music industry 30 years ago! But still, the majors have such a stronghold over the business, that only something really radicle, like what Prince is doing, is going to change anything), the artists having to invent their own new ways to distribute their music (er, isn't this what a label is supposed to be doing for them?) you MUST support what Prince is doing in bypassing the labels and being an indpendent artist, surely? YouTube is not "a great marketing and promotional tool", as anyone in marketing will tell you that a great marketing tool is one which drives profitable revenue growth - artists don't make a cent from what is put on YouTube. It is a great consumer tool, but that's another story. Your argument will be that it allows them to reach a wider audience, but this is not proven. There are no statistics or evidence to support that and I very much doubt that people discover a new artist by randomly searching on YouTube. It is much more likely that you come across someone new to you by listening to the radio, watching TV, reading magazines, word-of-mouth, or perhaps ensuring 3 million people get a new copy of your cd for free??!!! Hey, there's a great idea The majority of people searching for Prince content on YouTube will be fans already and particularly the obsessive completists and those that think they're entitled to ANYTHING for free.
YouTube is only a great profit-making tool for Google (why do you think they snapped it up at a cost of millions of dollars? To provide a service to everyone? Or because its such a great money-spinner?) And, why is it such a great money-spinner? Because they have relatively low overheads because THEY DON'T PRODUCE THEIR OWN CONTENT! Perfect. Now, that's fine if they have the rights to the content, but the material we are talking about here is copyrighted and is not YouTube's to show. Nor is it the fan's to upload for that matter. However, YouTube is the service provider and they should not be a conduit for people to just put up whatever they feel like. Would you be so quick to defend YouTube's right to put up anything if, say, a "mate" put up some personal video of you, perhaps in a compromising position, something you would rather not be aired to the public? I doubt it very much. Furthermore, after 30-years in the business, Prince does not need something like YouTube (a new starter in the business would find their "service" more useful) and there cannot be many people on the planet who do not already know who Prince is. You espouse again that fans demands should be met - why? Should a fan get everything they want? Is that the way the world works? Do you just stamp your feet and anything and everything you want comes to you? Of course not - why should Prince not do anything but whatever HE feels like with HIS creations? (and all this bullshit about the "information age" - have you seen stats on what most people use the net and YouTube for - its not exactly educational and culturally enriching stuff now, is it? ) And as for dissmissing the 3121 site - Prince was one of the pioneers of internet channel distribution and marketing, well-ahead of the game 10 years ago, its old hat, just another channel - and that is why he has now created and expoited a whole new channel of distribution, one that has been entirely successful, far more lucrative and goes beyond just getting his music out, but giving him massive media interest, whilst also shaking the roots of the music industry itself (an industry that, when Prince started, had more musicians running it then businessmen, unlike today) and music retailers to boot. Its a genius stroke, but most here seem too blind to see it. Ultimately, what does it matter to you anyhow, as to how he goes about distributing his product? He could go around on a bike throwing cds on your lawn like a paperboy, does it make ANY difference to you, the consumer? No - because, all that should matter to you is whether the product is enjoyable or not!
Its your last paragraph that really takes the biscuit - MOST musicians actually struggle to make a living out of this industry and some can only do it for a time, then find themselves working in a shoe-shop again, or something! Most artists find themselves at the mercy of massive corporate systems designed to benefit themselves and not the artists who create the product in the first place. And just what the hell are you talking about, this hiring of a marketing agency etc?? Have you been asleep for the past few months? Prince has just pulled off one of the most amazing marketing moves by a musician (with, no doubt, an expert team of lawyers to ensure fair practice and contracts), with multiple simultaneous effects, as already discussed, yet you suggest now that this is something he ought to be doing? You missed the party mate! Prince ought to be (and is, by many sectors, including marketing publications like the one above, marketing think-tanks and music industry analysts) applauded for this most recent move and, in the same vein, for his brave move to take on some of the biggest internet moguls there is, to protect content that is not THEIRS or the "fans" that post it, but HIS. [Edited 9/20/07 3:55am] and let me break it down for you..since I worked for a major label too..working in the industry I have seen some things...some good some bad....but you miss my one major point..These artists who get hit and abused by these labels, these artists who accept these bad contracts, these artists who accept the lack of promotion behind them honestly need to start blaming things on the record labels themselves and BET/MTV...instead of blaming Youtube/Ebay/Google for providing ways to see these artists when the labels barely want to support an artist unless they are popular with 12 year old girls or gyrating on stage...You say my post is full of hypocrisy but I believe your post is full of hypocrisy saying that Youtube is NOT a good marketing tool since you provide no evidence that it isn't. For examplea person puting up a popular video on Youtube can get wayyyy more hits and exposure than if that same person attempted to get his footage played on tv...It has been proven that people are watching less and less TV anyways so why wouldn't Youtube be a good marketing tool? I was a marketing major and not all things to expand your brand HAVE to generate revenue but as long as it creates a buzz than it should be embraced. Now I respect Prince's fight to take control of his image..however his concert footage is something that he wanted to project to the public and I don't understand why he now wants to pull things down like his concerts DIDn't happen, wanting to pull down a part of history that alot of his younger fans didnt get a chance to finish, pull down the stuff that some weren't able to attend because honestly we can't afford to pay nearly $300 for a ticket...and pulling them down without giving his fans a proper avenue to see his footage the way he wants us to see it....You shouldn't give fans EVERYTHING but to Give them nothing when they used to get everything from music videos to discounted tickets is simply ridiculous! Also another point I bring up...back to the artists....I have dealt with egos and stupidity from artists...Yes people, these people have egos and most are scared and alot are sensitive...I have seen artists crying in the bathroom about talking with executives yet the project this calm image on screen...but I digress...I talked about them getting their own marketing team because I treat an artist's relationship with a label like a woman with an abusive partner...they know things are wrong, they arent getting support yet they take the same beatings over and OVER again...YES THEIR JOB IS TO have a marketing team around them but comeon how many years have we heard the horror stories of these artists not getting the proper treatment..and like an abusive relationship these artists blame everyone and their mama except the one who is doing the abuse....they know things are wrong for YEARS like you mentioned with Zappa so why not get their own marketing team instead of that sad excuse of a label marketing/promotions dept instead of spending their advances on parties and bling??..and my major point which I don't think I conveyed clearly is...If you are going through an abusive cycle you either leave the label like Prince did or you hurt them...Prince was lucky enough to leave his label but others arent and are still stuck in bad situations/ban contracts, etc...suing Youtube is going to do something if he wins(which I think will negatively impact his image but thats another thing) but why sue ebay, youtube instead of suing the labels themselves??? Why doesnt Prince become the main supporter to gather artists signed with these labels and sue the labels itself??? Is it such a crazy idea to go in that direction????There is more than enough evidence to say "HEY THIS LABEL PROMISED TO SUPPORT ME AND they broke their promises....why not sue BET/MTV...the lawsuit I admit could be thrown out but it doesnt have to be sucessful legally to work but send a message that artists are FED UP and makes them wake up..... but I think that would be a TRULY PRECENDENTIAL thing that shows he truly cares about the future of music and knows that these labels need to change their ways somehow someway...it could be the start of a battle and send a clear message...Together they can make a difference...If all these artists refused to make music for their labels today at the same time the labels might explode
This argument has NOTHING to do with whether artists are getting enoughmoney because they are getting the money, it just is not being peddled out correctly and to me threatening to sue youtube, housequake, whatever is almost like suing his fans instead of suing the people who are creating the problems within the music industry itself...so yes the Youtube suit could be about controlling his image but my point is if this is about money then there are other avenues to puruse besides suing these sites Ok - to sum up - artists are egotistical prima-donnas who mis-appropriate blame to internet sites instead of their labels and that a Marketing team is the thing artists need to resolve their problems and the corruption in the music industry 
Marketing major AND major label record-industry experience and THAT is what you think??!! 
I really don't think I need to respond to this anymore, do I? ...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...
My dance project; www.zubzub.co.uk Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here; www.zubzub.bandcamp.com Go and glisten | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Mindflux said: mehogeni said: and let me break it down for you..since I worked for a major label too..working in the industry I have seen some things...some good some bad....but you miss my one major point..These artists who get hit and abused by these labels, these artists who accept these bad contracts, these artists who accept the lack of promotion behind them honestly need to start blaming things on the record labels themselves and BET/MTV...instead of blaming Youtube/Ebay/Google for providing ways to see these artists when the labels barely want to support an artist unless they are popular with 12 year old girls or gyrating on stage...You say my post is full of hypocrisy but I believe your post is full of hypocrisy saying that Youtube is NOT a good marketing tool since you provide no evidence that it isn't. For examplea person puting up a popular video on Youtube can get wayyyy more hits and exposure than if that same person attempted to get his footage played on tv...It has been proven that people are watching less and less TV anyways so why wouldn't Youtube be a good marketing tool? I was a marketing major and not all things to expand your brand HAVE to generate revenue but as long as it creates a buzz than it should be embraced. Now I respect Prince's fight to take control of his image..however his concert footage is something that he wanted to project to the public and I don't understand why he now wants to pull things down like his concerts DIDn't happen, wanting to pull down a part of history that alot of his younger fans didnt get a chance to finish, pull down the stuff that some weren't able to attend because honestly we can't afford to pay nearly $300 for a ticket...and pulling them down without giving his fans a proper avenue to see his footage the way he wants us to see it....You shouldn't give fans EVERYTHING but to Give them nothing when they used to get everything from music videos to discounted tickets is simply ridiculous! Also another point I bring up...back to the artists....I have dealt with egos and stupidity from artists...Yes people, these people have egos and most are scared and alot are sensitive...I have seen artists crying in the bathroom about talking with executives yet the project this calm image on screen...but I digress...I talked about them getting their own marketing team because I treat an artist's relationship with a label like a woman with an abusive partner...they know things are wrong, they arent getting support yet they take the same beatings over and OVER again...YES THEIR JOB IS TO have a marketing team around them but comeon how many years have we heard the horror stories of these artists not getting the proper treatment..and like an abusive relationship these artists blame everyone and their mama except the one who is doing the abuse....they know things are wrong for YEARS like you mentioned with Zappa so why not get their own marketing team instead of that sad excuse of a label marketing/promotions dept instead of spending their advances on parties and bling??..and my major point which I don't think I conveyed clearly is...If you are going through an abusive cycle you either leave the label like Prince did or you hurt them...Prince was lucky enough to leave his label but others arent and are still stuck in bad situations/ban contracts, etc...suing Youtube is going to do something if he wins(which I think will negatively impact his image but thats another thing) but why sue ebay, youtube instead of suing the labels themselves??? Why doesnt Prince become the main supporter to gather artists signed with these labels and sue the labels itself??? Is it such a crazy idea to go in that direction????There is more than enough evidence to say "HEY THIS LABEL PROMISED TO SUPPORT ME AND they broke their promises....why not sue BET/MTV...the lawsuit I admit could be thrown out but it doesnt have to be sucessful legally to work but send a message that artists are FED UP and makes them wake up..... but I think that would be a TRULY PRECENDENTIAL thing that shows he truly cares about the future of music and knows that these labels need to change their ways somehow someway...it could be the start of a battle and send a clear message...Together they can make a difference...If all these artists refused to make music for their labels today at the same time the labels might explode
This argument has NOTHING to do with whether artists are getting enoughmoney because they are getting the money, it just is not being peddled out correctly and to me threatening to sue youtube, housequake, whatever is almost like suing his fans instead of suing the people who are creating the problems within the music industry itself...so yes the Youtube suit could be about controlling his image but my point is if this is about money then there are other avenues to puruse besides suing these sites Ok - to sum up - artists are egotistical prima-donnas who mis-appropriate blame to internet sites instead of their labels and that a Marketing team is the thing artists need to resolve their problems and the corruption in the music industry
Marketing major AND major label record-industry experience and THAT is what you think??!!
I really don't think I need to respond to this anymore, do I? obviously you didn't read my whole post... a marketing team would be a good component to help artist but IT is not the answer I said CLEARLY "other avenues" are key besides suing Youtube/Google/etc....and clearly you didn't see my statement about why can't these artists talk to/sue their labels?? Yes CD sales are down but the problem of artists not getting enough from their CDs has been A LOONNNGGGGG PROBLEM wayyyyy before downloading came into existence even when people were buying tapes like candy...why do you think Prince wanted to get away from WARNER? My point is always why don't these artists fight against the labels who are the main ones who are SUPPOSED to have their main interests at heart and what is so laughable about these artists making a stand against these same labels????? Yes Prince breaking away from Warner was great but why not gather up some more artists and truly make another big stand DIRECTLY against these labels??..an artist should not have to resort to making his own label just to get proper percentages from the sale of their CDs.... I'm sure the fans and even non-fans would definently be behind this because we all know, we all sense that this is a time when the music we want to hear....the music and artists we want and NEED to listen to on the mainstream circuit so we wont be musically braindead is not being supported by the major labels/radio/tv... But I will just have to agree to disagree with your opinion because I am not going to support something I think is misdirected | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Certainly I did! And, as I said before, this ideology you have of artists rallying against the labels and turning the situation around is completely naieve - not to mention the fact that you say this as though no-one has thought of it already!! Shit - if only all these guys had sued, or "talked" to their labels, it could have all been so easy! And, do you not remember Prince trying to do exactly what you suggest (gathering the support of other artists in this noble cause) back in 95/96 at the beginning of his dispute with Warners? He even recorded an album called Exodus (implying the weight of artists turning their backs on the labels), so confident was he that people would see his point of view. Sadly, few others did - it was famously reported at the time, that Prince approached Michael Stipe at some event and suggested that he might be restricted by his label and Stipe just walked off!
To suggest I missed most of your statements is banal, because I've commented on all these subjects already. Oh, and, the best laugh was provided by, "artists we want and NEED to listen to on the mainstream circuit so we wont be musically braindead" Yup, that mainstream music will keep you alive and kicking Anyway, on you go - don't support anything you feel is mis-directed, regardless of evidence to the contrary. ...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...
My dance project; www.zubzub.co.uk Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here; www.zubzub.bandcamp.com Go and glisten | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Mindflux said: Certainly I did! And, as I said before, this ideology you have of artists rallying against the labels and turning the situation around is completely naieve - not to mention the fact that you say this as though no-one has thought of it already!! Shit - if only all these guys had sued, or "talked" to their labels, it could have all been so easy! And, do you not remember Prince trying to do exactly what you suggest (gathering the support of other artists in this noble cause) back in 95/96 at the beginning of his dispute with Warners? He even recorded an album called Exodus (implying the weight of artists turning their backs on the labels), so confident was he that people would see his point of view. Sadly, few others did - it was famously reported at the time, that Prince approached Michael Stipe at some event and suggested that he might be restricted by his label and Stipe just walked off!
To suggest I missed most of your statements is banal, because I've commented on all these subjects already. Oh, and, the best laugh was provided by, "artists we want and NEED to listen to on the mainstream circuit so we wont be musically braindead" Yup, that mainstream music will keep you alive and kicking Anyway, on you go - don't support anything you feel is mis-directed, regardless of evidence to the contrary. yes it may not have worked the first time but HONESTLY what is suing Youtube going to accomplish in the long run..heck even the short term financially for artists??? This has been the sole argument ....about what this is going to do for him financially yet you havent offered one way this is going to help him out..... Artists will still run around complaining about the fact they arent getting paid enough money, label workers will still work for nearly free and seeing the financial discrepancies firsthand while the major execs are walking around buying their fourth house in los angeles..and artists will more than likely still walk away from labels unsatisfied ....You say my solution is naive but how naive is your agreement with Prince suing these sites as a financial solution?? You make it seem like if Prince wins the case against Youtube today that all the bootleggers and similar websites will disappear off the face of the earth cause "lawdy knows those nasty bootleggers didnt exist before mp3s and Youtube came around" ...honestly Out of the two I think mine is less naive because at least you are hitting directly at the source and who says Stipe left because he felt it WAS naive??...heck more than likely he was SCARED just like most everyone else is except Prince but at some point something has to give and they HAVE to pinpoint the direct source of their frustrations You were the same one talking about tv/magazines and the like are the main places where people discover music(which is rapidly changing with the popularity of the internet) yet youre laughing at my statement that we need mainstream to actually showcase and give new artists a chance or actually give artists a chance who do not fit with the "norm" like they used to do so people have a chance to discover new things without being brainwashed by the same stuff over and over and over again??...because honestly I think if Prince was a new artist today the labels/tv would not even give him one sniff of a chance [Edited 9/23/07 0:00am] [Edited 9/23/07 0:02am] | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
and Lol mindflux I think we have taken over this topic, It's late over here 3:00 AM so until next time..
Kind of refreshing to have an intellectual debate with a real Prince fan without it going into name calling and such....hmmm we should meet up for a concert | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Respect to the friendly debate here!
mehogeni said: and Lol mindflux I think we have taken over this topic, It's late over here 3:00 AM so until next time..
Kind of refreshing to have an intellectual debate with a real Prince fan without it going into name calling and such....hmmm we should meet up for a concert | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
excessex said: Respect to the friendly debate here!
mehogeni said: and Lol mindflux I think we have taken over this topic, It's late over here 3:00 AM so until next time..
Kind of refreshing to have an intellectual debate with a real Prince fan without it going into name calling and such....hmmm we should meet up for a concert Co-sign to you both above  Yup, I'm certainly enjoying it! Am tired now though, a busy weekend's gigging in London (hence the odd post times!) so, yes, until next time
Love and fluxiousness  ...we have only scratched the surface of what the mind can do...
My dance project; www.zubzub.co.uk Listen to any of my tracks in full, for free, here; www.zubzub.bandcamp.com Go and glisten | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
Mindflux said: SexyBeautifulOne said: Not sure if you meant to but your question actually supports my theory! YouTube/Google (The Site Owners) are not the ones uploading Prince's videos...Prince's fans are...so the wrong doers here are the fans not YouTube/Google as you show in item #6 of their TOS. If Prince has a problem with the advertising revenue that YouTube is now making indirectly thanks to it's affiliation with Google, then none of Prince's stuff including the stuff put up by Universal should be on YouTube. Since he has no problem with YouTube collecting it's advertising revenue on those videos then it's pretty easy to see that his problems are only with the ones the fans up. No it doesn't! Its already been noted that the fans are wrong for uploading it and it is a direct contravention of YouTube's own rules and regulations. By rights, YouTube should cancel their accounts and remove the videos....but, they don't! YouTube isn't "affiliated" with Google, it is owned by Google. It doesn't "now" benefit in advertising revenue because of this, it simply was already doing well and Google wanted the revenue! You cannot say "if Prince has a problem" with some videos, then it should include stuff out up by Universal - ITS HIS STUFF!!! How many times does this point have to be made? If he chooses for a video to be up there, then that is ok - he can, and should, pick and choose what is available. No-one else should be uploading his material without his permission and YouTube should not be hosting it. So, you can theorise all you want - its a waste of time, because the law says that a person who owns the rights to a copyrighted product has the right to do with it what they choose and that anyone else cannot - end of story. I'm in complete agreement with Mindflux and all other like-minded folk. Come on, Prince (and all other artists for that matter) should have COMPLETE CONTROL over all their work and who can argue with that? For those that see differently, well... you make me sick and you can all moan until you're blue in the face! Unbelievable!  | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
well I've certainly enjoyed reading the great debate. thank U 4 sharing your ideas, It has shed some light on this matter. I love prince, & just hope that he gives us "never get enough fans", other outlets (dvd's) to enjoy & appreciate his beautiful talent. because Tis nobody funkier.....LOL | |
| - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator |
New topic Printable This is a "featured" topic! — From here you can jump to the « previous or next » featured topic.