I mean I wonder if he is well accqaunted with the Jazz Idom like the great masters.

I'm mainly talking about being able to play jazz standards on his Guitar first and then the piano.

I'm quite sure he would be able to play tunes like autumn leaves etc, but i wonder how wide his Jazz repertoire is?


Any clues?




JV'
[Edited 6/27/07 3:58am]

Well, to put it mildly -

Prince's jazz skills are WAY LESS than people tend to give him credit for...

RealMusician said:

That's your oppinion. SOME people seem to make statements based only on commercially available music, and don't understand what an amazing musician he really is. That's what makes him so great, a majority of the population don't see him as a musician, 1st and foremost. He's BETTER than a lot of people round here give him credit for.

He is able to play some very good jazzy phrasings when he wants to (check ´Get some solo´ from Cream maxi single and the outtake ´My summertime thang´) but he is not fluent in jazz improvisation like the great masters (Wes Montgomery, Benson, Mc Laughlin).

I wish he played more jazz but maybe he doesnt enjoy playing as much as he does with funk and rock. Sometimes he lets the band play jazz and he doesnt even join them, and when he does, he usually plays fusion and blues-rock oriented licks, not pure jazz.

Like Eric Leeds said in a recent interview:
"It's just little things like the fact that he can be very spontaneous in the way that works in the studio and the way he approaches music, which I've always kind of related to someone of the jazz ethic. Prince is not a jazz musician in the traditional sense and certainly doesn't have the harmonic background that we would associate with straight-up jazz musicians, [but] he can apply a sense of spontaneity, whether he's in the studio or in rehearsal or in a life situation that is more true to the jazz ethic than a lot of jazz musicians that I've played with [laughs]! I always responded to that because that's what I came out of."
[Edited 6/27/07 5:28am]

Aye

GustavoRibas said:

You're right.

GustavoRibas said:

Exactly.

GustavoRibas said:

That's true as well.


If you would put Prince in a real jazz group (of any style that's not fusion: bebop, swing, modal/post-bop like Miles or Coltrane's 60's groups, free-form, whatever), and hear it on a record without knowing who it was, there is a slight chance you might think "Wow, that's a different approach to playing jazz guitar!"...but more likely you would just say "Hmm...that guy doesn't really know what he's doing!"

The same goes for Frank Zappa, by the way - who also was a great musician, but quite overrated as a jazz improviser specifically.
[Edited 6/27/07 7:05am]

RealMusician said:

It's funny that you say this because I agree with you. Prince is a GREAT musician, don't get me wrong, but as a trained jazz guitarist myself, I noticed this at the 3121 Jazz Cuisine aftershows. Prince's band with Maceo, Greg Boyer, Renato, are more adept at playing jazz. After all, they've obviously been trained in or played a lot of jazz over the years to sharpen their chops. Prince, despite experimenting with jazz on TRC and having some cool jazz-tinged guitar displays, is still new to jazz. Jazz and jazz guitar specifically, are complicated and it takes awhile to really get underneath your fingers. Whenever Prince would pick up his guitar and join the other musicians during the aftershows, it took the music in another direction to me. Not bad of course, but different. It all sounded good to me and I was just happy to be there

I don't think there is any kind of jazz that Prince coudn't play except maybe on the drums where he might b a bit weaker than on other instruments (this being said, he plays great drum parts on "8", "16" & "Times Squared".) Just listen to his bass, guitar & keys/piano solos : he's a master. The bass solo & the bass line in "2 Nigs United In West Campton" r just amazing, 4 exemple.

I should perhaps also add that the only Prince band member - past or present - that has displayed a convincing mastery of jazz language, to me, is Eric Leeds. (Maybe also, to a lesser extent, Atlanta Bliss and Levi Seacer)

Then I'm talking about sound, phrasing, rhythmic and melodic ideas, harmonic understanding, improvisational approaches. Think of music as a spoken language, where "jazz" represents a certain accent. You can learn to fake that accent in a phrase or two - but in the long run, you can always tell...

Maceo, for instance, has a somewhat "jazzy" approach in his phrasing, but the notes he plays are usually not that jazz-related...he has kind of the same melodic language as Prince has on guitar. The same goes for Candy. Greg Boyer, I don't know what he's doing...I assume he's a great ensemble player, but improvisation-wise, it sounds to me like he's faking it a lot...

Renato Neto has great harmonic and melodic language, but his timing and phrasing doesn't really sound like jazz to me.

I'm kind of stuck in the middle on this one, first since his dad is or was a great jazz pianist. And second some of his voicing on guitar but esp piano have a jazz tinge to them. Some of his chords use ext up to the 13th, normally though he emplyed basic 7th, sus and minor seventh and flat 9 type chords.

Second alot of his early stuff like do me baby used Emaj9, D3ma7, g#m7 type chords. Of course i know that falls out the typical 2-5-1, 6-2-5-1 type jazz changes, but he definitely seemed well aware of these type progresions. I actually have a hard time believing that he would not be able to at least play simple jazz progresions like the afore mentioned in common standard keys.


I mean go back and listen to still waiting in G. He plays a walking bass line from G-A-B-C-D, and superimpose's some beautiful improvisation like chordal licks, fill, and embellishments.

So my take is that even if he isn't very fluid in Jazz, i don't think it would be that much of a stretch for him to get there at all.




JV'

jazzvirtuoso said:

Well I've always seen glimpses of jazz here and there throughout Prince's music and I think it definitely is a result of his father being a jazz pianist. However, Prince didn't go the jazz route with his music. His music borrows from many styles and genres. And so though he can dabble at jazz, he's definitely not a virtuoso. It's definitely a music form that you have to practice and practice and practice at to be comfortable. I equate it to myself. I learned to play jazz music first and so when I go to do other styles of music, you definitely hear the jazz influence in what I'm playing. You can't break free of it. Well I think the reverse is true with Prince. He plays so much other stuff and is not a full-time jazz player, so his jazz sounds like fusion instead of pure jazz to me. Apparently, it's something that he himself is cognizant of because I find back with the TRC is when he started really playing jazz more consistently. I think the 3121 Jazz Cuisine was also an opportunity for him to explore and better hone his jazz chops.
[Edited 6/27/07 7:57am]

RealMusician said:

Did you go to the 3121 Jazz Cuisine aftershows in Vegas?

airbak said:

Exactly, Jimmy Bruno he is not. More like Jimmy hendrix to my ears. man it would really be nice to hear him stretch out on some jazz tunes. Btw. I just remembered that he said that he listened to chick corea coming up.

I sorta got the feeling that he dabbled into a little chick for a while. I wish he would do a complete jazz album and play some old standards and a few bebop standards, man that would be so cool.

For some reason i get the feeling that he will never do that though.
Could you imagine what it would sound like to hear him play some of that?



JV'
[Edited 6/27/07 8:06am]

It depends on what you think of the Madhouse records. I'll leave the technical aspects of the question to the actual musicians, but he seems to ape the "fusion" aesthetic pretty well.

I dont think Prince is really a master of any genre. He is a master of Prince though. His rock songs are not pure rock, his jazz isnt pure jazz, his rnb isnt pure rnb etc etc... Its all fused into a genre all of his own. Even though Planet Earth is being touted as a rock-orientated album Im pretty sure it will be far from pure rock and will have plenty of the 'Prince genre' mixing it up - even if the slant tilts towards rock more than other genres.

Having said that, theres no doubt in my mind that the inventiveness of Prince has waned over the years. But then whose wouldnt after 30 years? The man has had his kudos for his songwriting talents over the years and rightly deserves his place as a legend. But I dont think that is what drives him these days. He seems to now get his drive from performing live and I have little doubt that as well as being remembered as a genius songwriter and musician, his legacy will also read "the greatest live performer of his generation".... I just wonder, once he has perfected the live performance, what will he turn to next? Maybe he will vanish, never to be seen or heard of again...

jazzvirtuoso said:

Well it's funny but I wouldn't be surprised if he did this. It seems like as a Gemini Prince gets bored and is always trying to stretch out and take things to the next level musically. Lately, he's been more into playing guitar and getting better at it than any of the other instruments he plays. I haven't seen him play piano as much these days sadly. Where as he played a lot of piano for One Nite Alone. With regard to jazz, it seems like he is incorporating more into what he's doing and maybe in a couple of years we will see some more jazz albums.

Prince can play anything.

the "madhouse" sets are a good introduction of prince and jazz to the masses. "Just as long as we're together" has a real nice jazzy movement in it.Usually, when prince is not singing, when he goes instumental, he shows his jazz influences. Then there is the N.E.W.S. cd, which I would pay money to see performed live. And, of course there is my favorite, "Insstrumental Jam" from small clubs.

In addition, funk comes from the evolution of jazz.

dv81

do u lie???

As I mentioned earlier, the jazz "language" consists of many different parameters. Which ones are the easiest to master, depends a lot on which instrument you play.

For a guitarist or pianist, it's not that hard to learn a couple of "jazzy" chord voicings and incorporate them into your own music.

A better test of your harmonic skills would be: having to play a given chord progression, complete with detailed extensions (like Gm9b5-C13#11b9-F6/9#11 etc). A really good jazz musician would not only be able to execute the right chords, but also know several different voicings for each one, to use for variation.

But the real challenge, however, is still the ability to improvise over the same chord changes. That's much, much harder than to just play the chords...

So if you look at "Do U Lie" for example, it actually has some chord changes that are clearly jazz-derived (chromatically moving II-V-I patterns). Now, Prince can obviously play those chords. It's possible that he would also be able to name them if he had to.

But if you wrote down the chord progression, and said "Here, Prince, I want you to play these chords", I'm not so sure he could do it, without needing a moment to figure it out. And I'm almost certain that he wouldn't be able to improvise on it, in a stylistically convincing way.

RealMusician said:

Hmm, I haven't listened to that one in a long while. What key is that in?

The easiest way to voice that last chord on piano for me (my hands are medium small sized) would be to play it as Bb-CD-GA with the root (F) in the bass. Which is the way i would imagine prince would have to voice it because his hands are so small....

Oops you said # 11 right? that would imply a B natural instead of B flat which is like saying to flat the 5th.


I can reach full tenths now after two years of stretching my hands every day. I cant imagine prince being able to reach beyond that, which of course would be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it.

OTOH, I would imagine thats what made him even more ingenious kind of like how Art Tatum played close to the keys cuz he was blind, turning a disadvantage in an advantage. Someone has mentioned that prince had an encycolpedic knowledge of "voicings".




JV'
[Edited 6/27/07 13:02pm]

Miles Davis wrote in his biography that Prince plays jazz like an average piano player in the sixties which was a compliment for him !
[Edited 6/27/07 13:36pm]

Finally! Some objective discussion when it comes to Prince's musical abilities. Except for 2 posts, this has been a very enjoyable thread. It's so hard for non-musicians to actually accept the fact that Prince can't read music or isn't a complete virtuoso.

I spent a lot of time on housequake.com last week involved in a discussion/debate concerning Prince's guitar improvisational abilities. It seemed so hard for some folks to believe that Prince is mainly a pentatonic player with an adventurous set of ears, so to speak. I'm sure if banishedone is reading this, he'll come with an example from Small Club as proof of P's jazz/improv abilities...

As someone mentioned earlier, Prince is a good "dabbler". He can ape styles, adding enough flavor to suggest that perhaps he could release an album in that genre. Thomas Dolby once said something to the effect of Prince plays just enough to make you think he's a genius, but not enough to substantiate it...

As far as jazz guitar, there are many aspects of it, including reharmonization of a given tune, Larry Carlton's chord-theory approach to soloing, Pat Martino's system, Tuck Andress' harmonic concepts, just to name a few.

I love Prince's playing - he's a big influence on my own playing - and I love the fact that he takes chances and ventures out of his comfort zone. I would classify his jazz-influenced playing as just that - jazz influenced, not jazz.

Prince reminds me in many ways of another one of my fave guitarists, Tommy Bolin. Bolin, like Prince, was a self-taught player with blues/funkrock leanings. He replaced Joe Walsh in the James Gang and Ritchie Blackmore in Deep Purple, but he really came to prominence via his recorded work with cats like Billy Cobham, Jan Hammer and Alphonse Mouzon. These albums are widely considered some of the first fusion albums and reportedly influenced Jeff Beck, who subsequently recorded his own Jazz/Rock recordings.

Though Bolin's guitar vocabulary was more blues-rock-based than jazz-based, his intuitive style and great ear gelled with the more technically accomplished players and resulted in some cool recordings. Same with Jeff Beck. It's the same with Prince.

Here's some cuts from the classic Spectrum album with Billy Cobham:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...pluKxftc6w

http://www.youtube.com/wa...bLjObdYWhQ
[Edited 6/27/07 16:01pm]

Miles Davis always thought so, as do many other jazz artist.

jazzvirtuoso said:

prince once said about funk: "if you can describe it, then it ain't funky!." well feeling the same about him in terms of all that he does, he can do funk ... he can do jazz.

Great post guys!!!

I think when your a musician listening to prince you have a different perspective on his abilities. I grew up listening and copying his playing on about 5 different instruments. I believe that after listening to his peseduo jazz flavorings is what made me want to venture further into the jazz world. I absolutely love jazz piano. I studied theory (on my own) for quite a while, and i'm still learning. I took the time to lean all the major scales, modes, pentanics, melodic minor, diminished, blues etc.

I took a few jazz guitar lessons with Susan Poweters (old excersice guru) now Ex husband for a short time back in the early 90's he was a berkley trained guitarist. I've played in several bands around town. I listen and copy the great jazz pianist's like Art Tatum and esp Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans etc.

I say all that just to say that after you listen to the superb masters play in that idiom you can kind of tell if a muscian has spent the time neccesary to absorb that style or not. I agree with the sentiment here that prince is mainly a funk-rock player.

I hate to say it but there are musicians out there that eat prince's lunch all day long and then some. His fans are some times over-eager in their over indulgence of him, but I still think he is a musical genuis, just not musically Omnipotent.

Also there are several people in the music bussiness that can play several instruments just like P can, first person that came to mind was stevie wonder.

If you guys ever get the chance go listen to Jimmy Bruno, that guy is absolutley amazing on jazz guitar, he has the best technique on that instrument that I've heard.

I always felt that prince would or should come out with some stright up jazz albums then i feel like his repertoire would be complete.



JV"

totally agree with jazzvirtuoso Jazz is my area of expertise

Prince at this point in his career is not a great jazz musician, he is OK, but definitely not great. Jazz is a balance of concervative control and power and knowing when to release that power in rhythm. All instruments should flow and sound as one, like on a horizontal plane. In order to create this sound everyone should be on the same page, and whenever I here Prince's jazz flavor, it sets him apart from the other people playing, making his instrument verticle, serparating him from everyone else who is horizontal.

Jazz is the hardest stye of music to play and it takes dedication in that are for a long time for someone to be great at it. Prince will never be a great Jazz guitar player, but at the same time people like Lee Ritenour, George Benson, and Johnathan Butler (all great jazz guitarest) will never be considered great rock and roll guitar players becuase that hasn't been ther area of focus.

It is easier for a great jazz guitar player to become a great rock & roll and blues player then it is for a rock & roll and blues player to become a great jazz player. But if anyone could do it Prince could
[Edited 6/27/07 17:31pm]

Hey people,
thank u for this wonderful thread. I really like to read this. Iam a musician too and i got the feeling that this thread is more objective about Prince. And that´s cool. Not like "Is Prince better than Hendrix" or "Is Prince the greatest guitarplayer ever" !

My dream is a collaboration with guitarplayers like George Benson, McLaughlin, Lukather or piano player like Corea, Hankock.
Than u will see where Prince stand. I like Maceo and Larry as musician. But they play always the same and the same licks.
I don´t understand prince, why doesn´t he work with some great jazz musicians?? Is he afraid ?? maybe he is. He always wants to be the big star with the best solos. I think he has a personal problem.
Mike Philipps is a fantastic sax player with many Jazz influence, like Eric Leeds and Renato Neto.
But he must work with the big ones in the scene. That´s a dream.

people ,please discuss going on and sorry for my english.

timur said:

[Edited 6/27/07 17:58pm]