Shorty said:

I think that you're having some trouble distinguishing the "overproduced" complaints from most the complaints that are being made now (like by the thread starter).

Take Endorphinmachine. That's an interesting, complex and quality song. But it's overproduced. I know of very few Prince fans who prefer the released version to the earlier more bare one. There were a lot of songs in the 90s that fell in the same category. (E.g., Zalanee) A lot of people felt like Prince was better when he kept things more bare in the studio, like he did on the Undertaker.

The songs today are in fact more stripped down, and I don't think anyone's complaining about that. They're complaining that the songs are boring, simple-minded and bland.

TRC is an example of an album that nobody described as "overproduced" (to the contrary, one of the first thing people often noted was how wonderful and organic the drumming sounded). Similarly, it was not subjected to the same critiques that are being made of Musicology, 3121 and PE. (TRC was divisive mainly because of the content of lyrics and the "voice", which some thought ruined the album.)

One of the main reasons there was such pashioned feeling about overproduction on older albums was that it was often the only aspect that Prince hadn't gotten right. Fix that problem and you had some great work.

The last three albums aren't one problem away from being classics.

PapaSmurf said:

I agree.

dreamshaman32 said:

I agree with this too... all but the "mellowed ego" thing. I think other things -- like lucidity that the music world no longer revolves around you (despite the fact you may think it still should) -- could lead a person to such expansions.

And I love the tone of this. Though recent critiques are well founded, IMHO, we have to give it up to a man that has given us awesome moments throughout his career -- once in the studio, now moreso onstage. And I love how you suggest we should find a personal inspiration in Prince's career arc.
[Edited 7/17/07 19:31pm]

You're arguing with a straw man again. Since no one ever disputed he got some bad reviews in the 80s, why are you posting links to prove a point that's not even being argued? You've also moved the goalposts. You turned around before and said that you weren't talking about critics, but fans. It was news to me, but I went along with it and asked for some proof of your claims. You've simply ignored my request. Just as you ignored all the rest of my last post. Go through it point by point and show me one point you actually addressed. Just one.

Jatrig said:

I totally disagree.

A good, well played song is good no matter what.

I personally can't stand the quoted Positivity but if we were to use songs [from the 1980s] as examples then what about using Sometimes It Snows In April as an example. A perfect example of the use of REAL instruments at their best. The production is perfect.

It is all a matter of personal taste. No one is right or wrong. What I can say is that Prince did not stop writing great songs from 01/01/90 and nor did he write ONLY perfect songs before this. My own personal preference is to the songs played by Prince and REAL musicians and NOT those songs built around programmed drums and bass. So for me, I like the song on this basis and not whether it originated from this decade or that.

Planet Earth is predomimately played with REAL instruments and thats fine for me. I agree apart from Guitar it is mellow but this again is fine with me.

I agree with previous posts that too many Prince fans view the 1980s with rose-tinted glasses!


Sometimes LESS IS MORE.

Midnightmover:

At this point I'd almost gladly concede to your point. Just tell me what it is. Tell me what you are trying to convince me of. You seem just as concerned with how I am arguing as with what I am arguing.

Again, you tell me: What is the point you are trying to make?

I have told you time and again that my claim is that a number of Prince fans view the 80's with rose tinted glasses--they see the 80's as being more flawless than it actually was. You think they don't?


You want me to prove that Prince fans overstate the 80's as being more great than it was. I don't have to. You making claims like "they think his music was better in the 80s it may just be because it simply was" already concedes the point. That being said, you yourself admitted that Prince was not universally loved in the 80's and have admitted that he didn't always get good reviews.

Well, look around prince.org--try to say something ill of Prince's '78-'88 output and see what happens. I mentioned the song "Do U lie" in a slightly negative way and several people jumped all over me about it. I told you that Rollingstone magazine gave Rave and Lovesexy the same rating. However, try to tell hardcore Prince fans that Rave is as great as Lovesexy and see what happens.

There IS a case a revisionist history when it comes to Prince fans and the 80's.

Ultimately, it's a case similar to grandpa saying "Things were better back in my day". And then you come along and say, "they think his music was better in the 80s it may just be because it simply was." How convenient--you ask asking me to prove my point with evidence when you really have supplied none yourself (unless the Rollingstone poll was made up of only of Prince fans.)


Again, it was great time for Prince, but not untouchable nor infallible. Sales figures, and mixed critical reviews (of which I have posted examples) would echo that statement. Prince view the 80's output as untouchable, but sales figures and mixed review would suggest otherwise. Amongst fans, these albums reputations have increased with age. Perhaps they deserve to, but it is definitely a case of revisionist history.

Also, why do you find it necessary to be rude to people that you disagree with?



[Edited 7/18/07 8:21am]
[Edited 7/18/07 9:21am]

Too true.

skywalker said:

I don't think there's any revisionist history going on.

It is quite common for magazines like Rolling Stone to give knee-jerk reviews to albums that aren't easily categorized. Many of the initial reviews of SOTT, Lovesexy and TRC fall into this category IMO. Remember, the purpose of Rolling Stone is to sell magazines and keep its audience happy.

However those three releases are objectively innovative and very good. And Rave is not.

Prince fans don't view the 80s with rose-colored glasses. It's just a fact that his collective body of released and unreleased studio work was better in the 80s than in any other decade -- even if there were some duds, as there have been throughout his career. And I say that as someone who only became a Prince fan during the 90s on the strength of his releases during that era, which while not quite up to the 80s on balance, also contained a lot of very good material.

I agree with you to a point.. Many Prince fans respond to his albums the same way as the critics. However,you can call it what you want it is still revisionist. That's what changing your mind is--the albums didn't change the perception did.

Parade doing poorly in the USA and receiving mixed reviews only to be held up as a classic in 2007--is revisionist.

Furthermore, this is why many Prince fans view the past with rose tinted glasses. The fact is, although we call it a classic, in 1986 Parade wasn't deemed an instant classic, it wasn't universally loved/praised and was only partly well received. Yet, now many Prince fans view that album as "untouchable" and one would nearly get slapped for criticising it or (GASP!) suggesting that they like, say, Planet Earth better...



They maybe innovative (that is up for debate--did Lovesexy or Rainbow Children really break any new ground for Prince or music in general?).

However, in calling them "good" you are not being objective. Don't get me wrong-I love all 3 of those albums--but that's not me be objective--that's me being a subjective Prince fan.


Again, this is an opinion. One I share with you, but still it just amounts to popular/critical opinion--not fact. You yourself have pointed out, like in the case of Lovesexy, popular opinion and critical opinion can change over time.


And that's fine. That's your opinion. It may even be THE popular opinion, but it is not the universal truth for everyone. People perceive things differently.

Bottomline: Changing your kneejerk initial opinion of an album is revisionist one way or the other. Also--that opinion is still just a subjective opinion (no matter how popular the opinion is)---not a fact.
[Edited 7/18/07 11:30am]

Well, I think your point then is that there is no way to objectively value anything. That may be true. Some will say that Britney Spears' body of work is better than Prince's, and you can make the argument that there is no way to argue with them without making it a subjective debate. I'd probably disagree with you somewhat though.

Were Lovesexy and TRC innovative and did they break new ground for Prince musically? IMO, yes and yes, whether or not popular opinion agrees or disagrees now or at the time of their release.

And though Parade has never been my favorite album, I do think a good slap is a worthy response to someone who thinks PE is better.

I think your overall point though is that people, including Prince fans, change their opinions of albums over time. I completely agree. I also agree with you that many people on these boards probably like Parade a lot more now than they did in 1986, and you're right that that's revisionist. (Btw, a better example might be C&D or Come, which I recall being mostly panned in the Prince online community, and now seem to be cited in a much more favorable manner.)

With respect to Parade, I think it was an album that challenged Prince's musical audience because it didn't fit what the audience may have expected. TRC may have been similar for some. Generally speaking, albums that challenge the audience often take a while to gain appreciation with a lot of listeners. I know that both albums grasped me upon my first listen (which would have been in 1995 for Parade, and 2001 for TRC) in a way that PE has not.

I assume that you think Planet Earth is a similarly challenging work. Myself, I'd bet against it at this point, but it's certainly too soon to prejudge.

skywalker said:

I think this quote summarizes a lot of what you are arguing.

And within the community of people that listen to Prince, there is definitely enough of a crowd that some folks will just pile on to whatever the popular media tells them.

If they hear that Prince is "back" with Musicology, it will affect the way they hear the album. If they hear that TRC is a rambling mess and that Prince has lost the plot, they'll be predisposed to dislike the album.

This is probably all true.

However, there are a lot of intelligent people in the Prince online community who don't care what the media says and do have the capacity to judge for themselves. When TRC came out, there were a lot of people on this site, who I respected from years of reading their posts, who gushed about it. They said it was his best album in 15+ years, topping TGE. While critics may not have liked, there were tons and tons of savvy Prince listeners who instantly loved it.

I didn't notice anything similar when NPS, Rave, Musicology or 3121 came out. There was no buzz from this same crowd.

My point is simply that I think you're vastly overstating the "revisionist history" argument in terms of how people here view these albums, since your argument is mainly based on reading reviews that in many cases were not the opinion of the hardcore online (non-"fam", i.e., everything is great) audience.
[Edited 7/18/07 11:51am]

True. However, I think when it comes to what Prince albums hardcore Prince fans like--it is a bit more like splitting hairs than the Prince/Britney comment. Furthermore, what Prince era/sound you like has quite a lot to do with the listener. I may prefer the Gold Experience Era over the Batman era. However, saying my preferences is different than saying something like Batman sucks and you have no taste for liking it better than The Gold Experience. Again, I would argue that how "good" or "bad" and album is has VERY MUCH to do with who is listening to it. Moreso than if Prince has "lost it" or not. Everytime you don't like a Prince song/album does that mean that "he has lost it"? I think all it amounts to that Prince is doing something you don't like.


Exactly. In your opinion. That's all that matters, ultimately so why slam others for theirs?



Slap 'em, but do it because they don't share your opinion--not because of anything objective. And while you are at it, slap all the people who gave poor reviews/opinions to Lovesexy in 1988, but hail it as a classic now.



I agree completely. Especially that Chaos and Disorder and Come are being cited in a more favorable light. It seems that it takes a decade or so for some Prince fans to warm up to certain albums. It's like anything new is not cool and anything old is "classic". Revisionist.



I hear you, but I say: Why can't it be both ways? For example: Prince, Batman, Diamonds and Pearls, and Musicology are all primarily pop albums. To be sure, Prince has his unique hybrid of styles on these albums, but they are not examples of him stretching. They are for the fun of it--not meant to be "challenging". So what? Why do many Prince fans squeal when he is more commercial or "pop". IMO he always has had one foot planted in the underground/art side of things, and the other planted in the commercial/pop side as well. Sometimes, you get the best of both worlds at the same time, and on the same album, and you get things like Purple Rain and Sign O' The Times.

I assume that you think Planet Earth is a similarly challenging work. Myself, I'd bet against it at this point, but it's certainly too soon to prejudge.

No, I don't think Planet Earth is "challenging" or pushing forward. I think it's a fun record full of nice/funky/melodic songs. It's nothing ground breaking--and that's okay with me. I don't need it to be. I don't need Prince to save my life everytime, or change the world. I just need some sexiness, muiscal gravy, and a bit of chicken grease--Planet Earth has it. Is it to be as revered as Parade or Lovesexy? Ask me in 20 years...

Skywalker:

Once again you're arguing with a straw man. I feel like I should step back from the computer and leave you to slug it out with this figure of your imagination. You don't need me. There's some guy in your head who claimed that Prince was universally loved in the 80s. Please tell me who this guy is, cos it damn sure wasn't me. You talk about me "admitting" his music wasn't universally loved, "admitting" he's great live. What the fuck are you talking about, "admitting"?! These points have never been in dispute, fool.

You've ignored every single point I've made while you've gone on slugging it out with the straw man. I've asked you to give me proof that his 80s work has gone up in people's estimation since then. You've given me nothing. Zilch. Nada. I'm still waiting for something. Just one tangible item. You post negative reviews from the time. Duh! We all know he baffled some critics back then. That's not news. Maybe if you had a recent article from one of those same writers saying "Sorry guys, that review I wrote 20 years ago was wrong" then you'd at least have something. As it is you've given us nothing but hot air.

Finally you have quoted me completely out of context and totally twisted my words yet again. If you continue to do this I'll be forced to compile an extensive list of your misquotes and distortions. I warn you, [It's ok to debate, but keep it friendly will ya. And stop with the threats which will not be tolerated. You're on notice - luv4u]

[Edited 7/18/07 13:08pm]
[Edited 7/18/07 13:10pm]
[Edited 7/18/07 13:12pm]

I couldn't agree more.


There ARE many intelligent people on this site--however popular opinion of a harcore fan base amounts to just that--popular opinion of the hardcore. If you go against that popular opinion--people accuse you of having no taste. In gerneral, the hardcore fanbase seems to not like when Prince is too "pop" in his sound. Think about it, these are the people (and I am one of them) who dig for hundreds of the most obscure Prince songs. It's like claimingthat Luke Skywalker is your favorite at a Star Wars convention (don't ask) people slap you for being to easy, too commercial, to broad in your taste.



Do you think this fanbase appreciates it when Prince isn't "challenging them"? Do hardcore fans like it when Prince makes a typical Prince pop record? No they want the thrill and complexity of Sign O' The Times or The Rainbow Children every time. So when Prince just makes some funky tunes that are fun to dance to we many hardcore fans call it "filler". Or "crap". Not because it's really any worse than "My love is forever" just because it's not what they want or how they think Prince "should do it".




Honestly, my quoting/reading reviews were for midnightmover to see that Prince did indeed get mixed reviews in the 80's-after Purple Rain.

My opinion about the hardcore fanbase comes from talking to people here (the very same people who you claim have flip flopped on albums like Come). Basically, I know that the popular opinion is that the 80's were when Prince was on the top of his game. I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is the notion that every album between '78-'88 are these untouchable, flawless, albums that will never be surpassed. That may be the opinion NOW, but it wasn't always--just as Come, Chaos and Disorder, and even The Rainbow CHildren (to a certain extent) are becoming more loved as time wears on--so is it with the 1978-1988 period.

Bottom Line: You are going to slap someone who likes Planet Earth better than Parade. Shouldn't you wait a few decades so we can look at the bigger picture and have time to revise history based on current opinions?

Bull said:

I think many people are misinterpreting the original posters intent. He's questioning whether he is entering the studio with the same zeal, creativity and care as he did 20 years ago. It's not about re-creating the same sound. It's about carefully crafting wonderful music.
It's apparent that he either doesn't have much to prove in the studio, or is content with releasing very average music.

Songs he had to "throw away" and not release in the 80s or songs relegated to b-sides would absoutley bury the stuff he's releasing now. You think he's writing/recording enough quality material to warrant B-sides and outtakes today? I can't be certain, but I doubt you'll hear about a bootleg with Planet Earth outtakes. That's because there are none. He recording just enough to fill an album, 10 tracks.
Again, I'm a huge fan and already have a lifetime's worth of great music from him. I'm just calling it like I see it.

BanishedBrian said:

The voice of sanity.

skywalker said:

This grovelling, "butter wouldn't melt in my mouth" tone (check out point 3) doesn't change the fact that you just ignored everything in my last post. The answers to your questions will be found by just properly reading my previous posts and seeing what is actually there, not what you think is there (or rather, would like to pretend is there).

P.S. If you have nothing meaningful to add then do us both a favour and don't bother responding.

And he is polite too...

BTW read what banishebrian aka "the voice of sanity" said here:

banished brian said:

[Edited 7/18/07 13:51pm]

Again, thanks for being polite. Please, I am not trying to jerk you around--I just want you to tell me what you are trying to convince me of. Is your point the same as banishedbrian? Simply that the prince fan's view of the 80's is not a case of revisionist history? Let me know.

skywalker said:

The voice of sanity.[/quote]

And he is polite too...

BTW read what banishebrian aka "the voice of sanity" said here:

banished brian said:
[/quote]
Uhh, that wasn't the post I responded to, was it? If you read the post I responded to you'll see he's rejecting your basic premise. All he's saying here is that of course some people change their opinions over time. However, that's a far cry from the claim of an overall elevation in the reputation of his 80s work, which is what you were suggesting. I asked you at least four times to back up that claim with some evidence and each time you ducked out, so I don't know why you're still fronting. There are many people who have re evaluated his work downwards, such as the critics who have demoted his albums on the all time best lists, and people who have deserted him completely. I myself didn't realise how scrappy much of D&P was until recent years.

[Edited 7/18/07 14:15pm]


[Bait snip - luv4u]