...

Man, I'm sorry I missed this--- great thread!

I'll just say I agree that while he can be quite adventurous, He can't really do jazz---and I'll also add that IMO he's not particularly good at "fusion" either---

I've heard a number of people compare stuff like N.E.W.S and Xenophopia to Weather Report and Mahavishnu, but IMO, it sounds more like Funk/Rock jamming to me....

I remember a Branford Marsalis interview a while ago, where the writer pointed out that sometimes rock or pop musicians are able to play with a level of proficiency that can often have more feeling and conviction than some jazz performers...and Branford replied, "that's very true, but that doesn't make what they do 'Jazz'... "

As others have pointed out, it's like learning a language; you have to study and practice it....



...

paligap said:

Deaf people?
[Edited 7/3/07 12:51pm]

Not at all. NEWS and all of Prince's "fusionesque" jams are mainly just that - long jams with a few tempo changes. They're cool, but they don't have the harmonic complexity of jazz. If you want a really informed opinion, ask Eric Leeds - he's remarked upon Prince's abilities in the jazz realm. Just read one of his recent interviews.

Just because Prince releases something "exploratory" doesn't make it jazz. As Paligap stated earlier, jazz is a language. You can't just play a few "outside" notes and call it jazz.

JesseDezz said:

Exactly!

Although you can indeed argue whether it's really necessary (or even healthy) to try to establish rules for what is jazz and what is not...personally, I don't know if I like that idea, really.

However, as I mentioned earlier, if you want an answer to the question "Can Prince play jazz?", it is actually relevant to do so, as you need to have some kind of criteria.

Some (lesser informed) people's definition of jazz seems to be simply "instrumental music". And if so - yeah, Prince can obviously play jazz...

RealMusician said:

Also, for this discussion, I think we need to get rid of the notion that jazz is difficult music that's hard to play. Whether that's true or not, it's really beside the point.

Can Prince speak Hungarian?
Can Prince fly a helicopter?
Can Prince perform dental surgery?

You could probably say "No, because he's never practiced, studied or been trained in it".

A stupid answer would be "No, because those things are really hard, and Prince is just not good enough!"

Same with music...

RealMusician said:

True.

For me, it comes down to this - I just dig the fact that he aspires to a higher level of musical understanding. So many artists are afraid to alienate their audience that they're afraid to take chances for fear of rocking the boat.

Whatever one thinks about P's jazz-playing abilities, at least we can actually have a discussion about it. Most popular artists don't reach that far.

JesseDezz said:

paligap said:

Excellent points.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

thanks again SSDD and RealMusician for the ejumication.

jazzvirtuoso said:

Prince rates an A +++++

does the pope shit in the woods?

abierman said:

depends on which pope.

sosgemini said:

you got me there.....

abierman said:

ReginaCarman said:

Don't ruin this otherwise objective and informative thread. Take that s**t somewhere else. Thank you.

Just kidding - I'm still in "serious discussion" mode Go ahead and show your love for P

ReginaCarman said:

JesseDezz said:

- Exactly!!! I am a big fan of Tommy Bolin and love his guitar work on Billy Cobham´s ´Spectrum´ and with Alphonse Mouzon. It´s funny that Prince plays ´Stratus´ on his recent aftershows (ccol!)

I just read an interview where Bolin said:

"The way I got involved in jazz-rock was through a flute player named Jeremy Steig. He played on the second Zephyr album. He showed me various jazz relationships and put them into a rock perspective, and then through him I met a lot of New York people like Cobham and [keyboardist] Jan Hammer. Cobham called me for the Spectrum session, and I said, "I don't know how to read, man." He said it was okay. So I went to the studio, and he handed me a chart. I told him again I didn't again I didn't know how to read, so we had a day of rehearsal, then cut the album in two days. In rehearsal I'd just find out the changes -- for example, Am to D9 to G6 to E13 -- and play around those chords and changes. I learned quite a bit through those people. You can't help but learn"
http://www.thehighwaystar...703xx.html

I think Prince even knows more jazz than Bolin did, because I heard some jazz phrasings on his outtakes. But like some people said, jazz is a language. The great jazz masters dedicated their lives to it. They read music and know lots about harmony, improvisation, modes, etc. Even Prince knows it. He usually lets his bands play jazz and, most of the few times he joins them, he plays bluesy-rock scales and licks.

JesseDezz said:

I argue the reading music debate. He took music in High School and also played sax. I'm positive he can read music to a degree. Can he sight read something and get it right off?...no...but I'm sure ha can look at a score or a part of music and tell you how it goes.

BobGeorge909 said:

Prince can't read music.

FuNkeNsteiN said:

ok...Prince can read music.
[Edited 7/5/07 12:03pm]

Why is it so hard for people to believe that Prince CAN'T READ MUSIC? It's almost as if some folks believe that it takes away from the "myth" of Prince. Dude can't read music. He's said it on more than one occasion. Believe it. Accept it. He has.

Eric Leeds said he doesn´t read music. Probably only the chords, but not music sheet.

Even Prince said something like if he read, it would change the way he is used to work (which is enough for him). He seems to be pretty well with his work method. Read the topics ´Bland is Back´ on the Associated Artists Forum. Prince uses several ways to show what he wants from the musicians.

It's not black or white.

Yes he can play jazz, meaning he can solo and play chord changes. But can he play and be one of the great jazz musicians, just like he's one of the great pop musicians? And the answer is no.

If you just listen to Renato's solos, you can hear the difference of someone who's playing jazz vs. someone who's playing jazzy. Renato's not one of the great jazz keyboard players, but he plays a different language than Prince.

Prince plays jazzy & knows some of the extended chords of jazz. Give him a ii V I and he'd be fine. But I imagine he'd get a bit stuck trying to solo over some real changes like Giant Steps.

It's similar to saying Paul McCartney is a great classical musician because he wrote Yesterday & For No One. But while they sound classical, Paul knows virtually nothing about arranging & composing in the classical style.

GustavoRibas said:

If he played sax in H.S. like we all know he did for a bit, he knows the basics of reading sheet music. He knows where a G is on the staff and knows where a D is on the staff and can probably read simple melodies. Can he read what he plays...no. If I was Prince, I would probably say I couldn't read music either. His ability to read music doesn't match his ability to play it, so it's somewhat irrelevant. To sum it up, if U put Mary Had a Little Lamb down in front of him but left it untitled, after 2 min's, he'd be playing Mary Had a Little Lamb.

My grandpa wasn't the most educated man, he grew up poor in the south, didn't graduate high school. He was no great reader. Probably never read anything longer than a magazine article....but by no means was he illeterate....does that make sense?

GustavoRibas said:

That album is a fusion classic.
Jeff Beck included Stratus in his set during last year's tour.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

RealMusician said:

Excellent post.

BobGeorge909 said:

The thing is, you don't know that - it's like you want to believe soooo much that Prince can read, even if it's just a little bit...