calldapplwondery83 said:

There R others here with u . . .

EmbattledWarrior said:

Yep, probably because you have nothing USEFUL to add to it. Btw feel free to tear your ass any time as no one put a gun to your head and asked you to read it.

Like I've said elsewhere the questions about princes Jazz abilites doesnt in any shape form or fashion diminish his enormous talent in other genre's rock, pop, funk etc.

Most of the conversation here on this forum centers around wishful thinking in regards to him being a super can do or play anything musical God.

You insult the muscians on this fourm by dismissing their ideas, and opinions and muscial knowledge as mere pretention. The REALITY is quite a few like myself could play many of his tunes, i can play just about every tune in his early repertorie, Im quite sure the other muscians here can easliy do the same. Thats how many of us learned how to play. Do you even know how hard it is to transcribe songs off of vinyl?

For example take the song "How come you dont call me anymore", I labored over that song for many hours, just to get all the chords and that funny offbeat Db octave he plays in the begining of just about every verse. It was for me at least hard to hear all this on a cheap stero system (i learned it from a 78) which I still have btw. Im forty years old, i started playing princes songs when i was 12!!!!


So before you dismiss this discussion either explain your stance or just dont bother to read it.



JV'

EmbattledWarrior said:

But u must admit it is refreshing everybody posting the same thing and wording it differently...

First off I sing jazz, r&b, blues, and gospel not in any particular order. I sing by ear and have never learned to read music. I write and arrange for artists and I grew up around music (and musicians) because my dad is a successful gospel artist. I currently have a publishing deal and production deal. Still I come to Prince.org not expecting everyone to discuss his music the same way and view it the same way I do. Its okay if everyone can't quite describe what they hear or write every note for note. We're just here because we have some type of interest in either P his music or both. No need to take cheap shots at anyone who visits this site.

Now to answer the question the answer is yes. Prince can play jazz but he is more of a soulful player than technician when it comes to jazz. If he was a jazz singer he'd be more Billie Holiday than Sarah Vaughn. People who listen to Prince's music aren't really expecting him to totally stretch out in any direction. Most P listeners are more comfortable when the can describe his music with a y at the end. I.E. its funky, bluesy, jazzy, etc. We have become comfortable with him fusing his music and making it his own genre. While we know he isn't a pure jazz player I feel he still pulls it off in a way that is distinct where u can't hear too many jazz musicians follow it up the same way. I really liked the way he did Sign O The Times at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but that's just my opinion.

adorable2 said:

Great post!!

RealMusician said:

im curious to hear your take on lisa's playing.

EmbattledWarrior said:

:fallthefuckoffmychair:

sosgemini said:

Actually, out of all Prince's band members, she is probably one of the people I've studied the least. So to be honest, I don't really have a detailed view of her playing. Not that I have anything against her, it's just been that way for some reason.

Also, it seems to me that she wasn't featured very often as an improvising soloist (although I could be wrong)?

From what I have heard, I would say that Lisa had some fresh harmonic ideas - not necessarily jazz-related in a traditional sense, but more of a modal approach, that reminds me a little bit of the way Joni Mitchell plays.

As for rhythm and phrasing, I really don't know...I would have go back and check out her playing more specifically.

Sorry!

RealMusician said:

she released a four song mini-disc of piano improvisations. i'd love it if you heard them and shared your thoughts...

to the orgnotes i go.

Wow, I never thought a substantive thread like this could exist here. Let alone remain civil. Big props.

To answer the question...no.
You don't just suddenly up and play Jazz. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication.
And i'm not talking about the music the public is currently being hoodwinked into believing is Jazz on these smooth jazz stations around the country.

That being said, do I believe he has the ability to do it in time if he applied himself?
I'll say yes because I think he has the "big ears" that would be extremely helpful.

He could probably play Autumn Leaves (minus the bridge) if he imagined himself playing Europa instead.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

Sure he could! I would say that anyone could, really. But just as you say, it would take thousands of hours, years and years of practice - whether you're Prince or anybody else.

Another important thing with any kind of music that you want to master - you have to listen to it extensively. People often forget that.

And that's also one of the reasons why rock music is generally considered "easier" to play than, for instance, jazz or classical... Personally, I'm not so sure that it really is, if you would start from scratch. But practically everyone in Western civilization today (including Prince) has grown up with pop and rock music all around us, so before we even pick up an instrument, we have already been exposed to several hours of aural "practice".

Most of us haven't listened to jazz that way, and therefore we feel it's harder to play. But it's not necessarily the complexity of the music itself, it's just that we're not familiar with the language. I mean, to me, it would be much harder to speak Chinese than English - but perhaps not for someone who's grown up in China.

In fact, you can hear this, but in the opposite way, if you listen to rock'n'roll records from the mid-50's. The studio musicians of the time usually had a jazz background, and that was all they knew. So to go from that to rock'n'roll (which hardly anyone even knew what it was at the time) wasn't always that easy! You hear a lot of funny stuff on those records, guys trying to play what they think is "rock"...

So for anyone who wants to learn to play jazz today, my advice is to go for a 50-50 approach: instead of practicing on your instrument for, say, six hours - practice three hours, and listen to jazz records for the other three!

As they say, it's like a bank - if you don't put nothing in, you can't get nothing out!

RealMusician said:

I can't play "SHIT" and I've spent up to six hours on in playing on my guitar and maybe about three hours for keyboard and I ain't gettin' nowhere!!! I don't what it is. I mean, if you asked me to play something like "The Question of You", I could play like an infant (Just barely: Let's just say that you'd know that it wasn't a professional playing if you heard my rendition), but if you ask me to play "Dez's Solo" from "Lady Cab Driver", I'd feel lost because I'd be feeling around and not making "ANY" precise sounds. Man, I don't know about this music thing with any genre. I know that you guys have tried your best to uplift me, but playing has become depressing for me. It's almost like emotional suicide.....
[Edited 6/30/07 2:15am]
[Edited 6/30/07 2:17am]

I'm a musician too and the whole jazz thing is unique and extremely complicated. the harmonics are out of this world then improvisation then the way that many different scales are used in one song. Totally mysterious to me, and improvisation of any kind has always left me lost. I do have great respect for jazz but told one of my teachers i just didn't have the time to do it. Prince I'd say has always showed some very interesting tinges with his chords of not only jazz but gospel, in places you wouldn't look for them. They add a beauty to his style, I'm sure he has a basic idea of some of the chords for sure, I don't know if he can improvise in a jazz way, using different scales etc.., I don't think he can, or at least i've never seen him. Many of you are much more well versed in technical aspects than I am but I do think he shows some real leanings into jazz and always has, however, to put him anywhere in the stratosphere of guys like Oscar Peterson or chick corea is just silliness. I'm sure he could do it, I've seen college kids learn quickly how to improvise, but for him to really have any depth to his playing, well that's another story. My goodness, jazz gives me a headache, i can't even figure out how to go about playing it myself all due respect to true practitioners because it is truly america's classical music.

RealMusician said:

Good take.

Luckily I grew up listening to Jazz via the records my Dad played so it never sounded odd to me.

Your point about Jazzers supposedly playing Rock is also a valid one.
There are tracks where you can tell it's a veteran studio Jazz cat patching a $10 fuzz-box into his 5 figure L-5/Polytone rig and "rocking out".

Musical genres employ specific sounds/vocabulary/feel.
When you're starting out, written descriptions and charts/manuscripts can't get you all the nuances involved.
As you've suggested, you've got to hear it to truly get the big picture.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

FarrahMoan said:

Have you ever tried just concentrating on one instrument? When I first started playing, I had a keyboard, bass and guitar. Wasn't getting anywhere, though I come from a family of musicians. Since guitar is what I drew me to music in the first place, I got rid of everything else and just concentrated on that and learning about music in general (thank goodness for the library). Once I concentrated on taking one thing at at time, things started to click.

Gotta crawl before you walk.

JesseDezz said:

Apparently my action is too high or something going on by what "coolcat23" (By the way, thanks, man!) told me. I'm going to try and get that looked at. I just hope that this will help. I also hope that my action is "REALLY" high above the fretboard so I won't look like I actually can't play worth shit because I have been feeling like a fool trying to press down on these notes with ease. Oh, and one last thing. I "REALLY" hope that I don't have to have my action really high in order to play like "Stevie Ray Vaughn" and/or "Jimi Hendrix" because I hear that a lot of "Blues" players prefer to have high action.

RealMusician said:

The first part in bold is true and I suspect that is because, as per the second part in bold, her rhythm and phrasing is just not that tight, to be quite honest... she is very much about adding colours to Prince's music... not really coming with the great solos, though.

.
[Edited 6/30/07 8:25am]

FarrahMoan said:

u mean drugs?

SSDD said:

i am more interested in how a musician would characterize her playing...that was all.

sosgemini said:

I'm a semi-pro and play and sing every week at different venues. I have played several instruments in various styles for over twenty years and am both self-taught and conservatorium trained. Almost do music for a living at this point.



.
[Edited 6/30/07 16:09pm]

SSDD said:

and you totally missed my point... .

i am interested in what her playing would be characterized as...the style...from a musicians perspective. since your a musician please share your opinion...and something beyond your opening of her not being "tight". cause thats not what i am looking for. im interested in musical classifications here. realmusician understood me...

sosgemini said:

Ok, her playing is what might be described as Neo-Impressionistic. The Impressionists were a group of composers who basically mirrored in "classical" music ideas going on in the visual arts at the time. Composers such as Ravel and Debussy who brought a lot of interesting tone "colours" (as mentioned in my previous description to "classical". And theoretically, that means a new selection of chords and harmonies from which to work with.

I believe Lisa comes from a more classical background than the other Revolution members did, and sometimes with classical musicians they aren't as used to knowing where certain rhythms sound best around a given meter in regards to African-derived musical forms. By this I mean playing behind, on top of, or in front of the beat. To a non-musician this concept may be hard to understand, but it is a very important one in the realm of African-derived forms of music because so much of it has to do with a certain kind of "feel". This concept is less prevalent in classical, where there is often a more rigid rhythmic foundation, to use the most basic description. What I am trying to describe here is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the whole concept of "feel" in jazz and so forth and there is so much more that could be said. To the point that many books have been written about just how hard it is to articulate the subtleties between classical and jazz "feel". A lot of it comes down to "syncopated" and "swung" rhythms, but still many classical musicians may understand these things in theory but don't pull them off so well in performance. The same goes for some jazz musicians playing classical.

In any event, when I say she's not that "tight" I'm saying that on some live boots I've heard of her, her solos alone don't seem that "fluent" in the jazz or funk idiom like say, Eric Leeds or Doctor Fink. Essentially, if I were to break it down simply, I don't believe she is that amazing a jazz or funk improviser per se (or at least, not on the boot I recently heard), however I did quite enjoy her instrumentals bonus disc which came with the Girl Bros "Eroica" album and when she is not improvising with a funk/jazz, but 'classical impressionistic' approach I think she is a fine player. Theoretically, employing a lot of "extended" chord voicings. And not always in the true classical sense, but putting this musical approach in the context of pop music, hence, "neo-".

Just my "pretentious"




.
[Edited 6/30/07 18:14pm]

RealMusician said:

Renato told me that he had a Brazilian Jazz trio that occasionally plays at a club here in L.A.
I hadn't had a chance to hear them personally, but from someone whose musical opinion I trust, he said they smoked the joint.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

adorable2 said:

No, silly! I mean, the precision of the height between the strings and the fretboard on my guitar. "Action" is that source of terminology within the terminological system of guitar "jargon"!

SSDD said:

ahh...that's what the details i was looking for...thanks!!!

sosgemini said:

OK, now I've checked out some of Lisa's solo piano recordings (Thanks sosgemini!)

I find that she's playing in a very coloristic, "impressionistic" way (just like someone mentioned here before). It's usually not related to any kind of groove or time feel, instead it has more of a free flowing quality. Also, the melodic aspects seem to be de-emphasized in favor of just color and sound.

Harmonically, I would say that she's using a kind of modal approach in a pop setting. Specifically, that means (for instance) if she's playing a tune in the key of C major, with mostly diatonic chords (i.e. chords featured in the scale - C, Dm, Em, F etc), she can use all notes of the C major scale as "extensions" on any given chord. So if she's playing a C major triad, she might "spice it up" by adding, say, the note F. Or add the note B to a Dm chord, the note C to an Em...anything goes, really (including removing notes in a chord as well).

With this method, you usually get smooth voicings that sound exciting, without necessarily wanting to resolve anywhere. Chords like add9, sus2, sus4, m11 etc. That's good for pop music, where you might want to stay on the same chord for a long time.

In traditional jazz harmony, however, you usually strive for the opposite - to emphasize the harmonic direction of a chord. If you have a C7 dominant chord that wants to resolve to an F, you add other notes that makes the tension even stronger. You get extensions such as b9, b5, #5, #9, #11 etc - a lot of chromatic voice leading with sharps and flats. In Lisa's playing, there's hardly any of that.

Of course, the modal way of playing has been a part of jazz as well, ever since the late 50's. Bill Evans was one of the first who applied it on piano. A later and more "pure" example is the way Keith Jarrett was playing in the 70's - it sounds like Lisa could have been influenced by him. Also, as I mentioned before, Joni Mitchell has a similar approach in her piano playing. So I would probably guess that Lisa's style was influenced by those two, possibly combined with some impressionistic classical music like Debussy and Ravel.

Also, I find that Lisa and Prince seem to have quite similar styles on piano. Although I think Lisa knows a little bit more what she's doing, while Prince on the other hand can be more adventurous.

N.E.W.S.,Madhouse And C-Note.
[Edited 7/4/07 20:41pm]

FarrahMoan said:

oh okay. umm yeah Just Say No!

JesseDezz said:

What a great thread! Sorry I'm chiming in so late. Great response JesseDezz! Very well put!

-K-
[Edited 7/2/07 11:04am]