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PrintableKlyph said: sosgemini said: no, im just pointing out there are two models to being a musician that an artist can take... and for those who question my logic there are four artist whom i can think of that don't bother going the route prince does each album (ie, sponsorship): aimee mann, bjork, sufjan stevens and ani difranco. but even aimee mann has sold out a couple times and made appearances on WB shows to gain interest in an album. and like i said about prince, aint nothing wrong with that. I'm assuming you're an Aimee Mann fan, so let me ask you this. Did appearing in those WB shows make the music any different? Or did you become different because you felt like she was selling out? I ask this because I can't see a big difference between, let's say Diamonds and Pearls and 3121 from an artistic point of view. As a matter of fact, and I'll use the term sell-out for a min., I think Prince sold-out MORE on D&P by forcing Hip-Hop into his sound. [Edited 6/4/07 6:35am] [Edited 6/4/07 6:36am] im not talking about the music just the approach to the business side of it. but to answer your question, the statements and interviews i read abut amiee and the other artist is that they are making music for themselves...and i'd say thats reflected when i hear their music... yet when i listen to prince within the last decade or so...i smell/hear a conscious effort on his part for commercial success (with the exception of The Truth and TRC). once again...nothing wrong with that...if you want to be a big glamour star and make millions...go for it...but we as fans shouldn't lie to ourselves...ole lil man is pimping.  Space for sale... | |
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sosgemini said: Klyph said: I'm assuming you're an Aimee Mann fan, so let me ask you this. Did appearing in those WB shows make the music any different? Or did you become different because you felt like she was selling out? I ask this because I can't see a big difference between, let's say Diamonds and Pearls and 3121 from an artistic point of view. As a matter of fact, and I'll use the term sell-out for a min., I think Prince sold-out MORE on D&P by forcing Hip-Hop into his sound. [Edited 6/4/07 6:35am] [Edited 6/4/07 6:36am] im not talking about the music just the approach to the business side of it. but to answer your question, the statements and interviews i read abut amiee and the other artist is that they are making music for themselves...and i'd say thats reflected when i hear their music... yet when i listen to prince within the last decade or so...i smell/hear a conscious effort on his part for commercial success (with the exception of The Truth and TRC). once again...nothing wrong with that...if you want to be a big glamour star and make millions...go for it...but we as fans shouldn't lie to ourselves...ole lil man is pimping. And the thing is I would have to agree. I can smell/hear it too. He wants money. But the problem is people saying he's a sell-out because of Vegas/Verizon, and that is a bunch of bull. He's gonna promote his music, plain and simple, and at least he's "selling out" (people's words, not mine) to sell HIS MUSIC, not Viagra or anal cream or whatever. Some people can deal with moderate success like Funkme said, and Prince isn't one of those people. However, If someone says "He's trying to make music to re-gain commercial success" I agree, cause I think he's been doing that since Batman. And even with those albums that you mentioned where you feel like he wasn't, I don't hear passion, I still here "going through the motions" mixed with "Hey guys, look what I've been reading" which results in "OHH!! This is different!" [Edited 6/4/07 6:52am] | |
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Klyph said: mirrorbestfriend said: I didn't say he was heartless,just saying he could have done more black people embraced him when he first started when the establishment wouldnt let him in and I think he needs to make sure he never forgets that we were his origianl fan base before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. If it doesnt hurt when you give you really not giving Black America thought for the most part he was weird! His first 2 albums sold like crap until AFTER Purple Rain came out! I just don't know what to say!! Stop the madness because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.  | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: PurpleCharm said: How about you go to your job and not worry about getting paid. I dont worry about getting paid ..... I do it for the love.... thats the difference between you and me I don't have to write'em down  WTH...is your name sosgemini? | |
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PurpleCharm said: Klyph said: Black America thought for the most part he was weird! His first 2 albums sold like crap until AFTER Purple Rain came out! I just don't know what to say!! Stop the madness because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Ummmm....yes I do, but I'm not gonna start some petty argument with someone who can only say "Stop the madness because you obviously don't know what you're talking about". Do the research, dot the i's and cross the t's, and get back to me! | |
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PurpleCharm said: mirrorbestfriend said: I dont worry about getting paid ..... I do it for the love.... thats the difference between you and me I don't have to write'em down WTH...is your name sosgemini? im sorry but why are you dragging me into your drama? Space for sale... | |
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Soft and Wet: 12 on the Black Chart, 92 on the Pop Chart
For You: 150,000 copies in the US, Number 21 on the Black Chart, 163 on Pop Chart I was wrong about the Prince album, it did significantly better: I Wanna Be Your Lover: Number One on Black Chart, 11 on Pop Prince: 3 on Black, 22 on Pop Went Platinum in 1980 Dirty Mind: Didn't do Prince numbers, but critics loved it. (His weirdness didn't bother young white punk rockers, and he started to gain a "rock" following) See, I can admit when I'm wrong, but it doesn't change my argument. He was in a few Black teen mags, viewed as "weird", and he decided to not do interviews and became, hell, weirder! [Edited 6/4/07 7:26am] | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: Prince has totally disappointed me by becoming a corporate sellout.....the guitar video made me cry.....
First he goes and becomes a Vegas Lounge act then he lets citibank whore him out now verizon? I thought it was about the MUSIC..... you never saw Jimi hendrix Or miles davis doing cell phone commercials and credit card gigs cuz they had integrity What's next Prince? Viagra commercials with Little red corvette in the background? Move over Bob Dole PRINCE GONNA STEAL YOUR GIG! I am sure Jimi (and othere's) would have used these Ave's if they were available. Prince has always used different things to get his music out...the internet and Love4oneanother ... how is this different? Why is he selling out because he is trying to get paid? People hate on folks for no reason...If he was doing things low key, people would say that he needs to go back to a big company...he goes back and now he is a sell out. Citibank???? What happened here? For all the haters there is always Michael Jackson to kick it with. CHILL - JMO PEACE Prime aka The Kid
"I need u to dance, I need u to strip I need u to shake Ur lil' ass n hips I need u to grind like Ur working for tips And give me what I need while we listen to PRINCE" | |
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Klyph said: PurpleCharm said: Stop the madness because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Ummmm....yes I do, but I'm not gonna start some petty argument with someone who can only say "Stop the madness because you obviously don't know what you're talking about". Do the research, dot the i's and cross the t's, and get back to me! Since you know what you're talking about, how about you back up your claim that for the most part black America thought Prince was wierd. [Edited 6/4/07 8:19am] | |
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sosgemini said: PurpleCharm said: WTH...is your name sosgemini? im sorry but why are you dragging me into your drama? Drama??? You're funny.
Anywho...go back and re-read my prior post. It was addressed to you, not mirrorbestfriend. That's why I asked if he was you because he answered as if I was talking him. [Edited 6/4/07 7:59am] | |
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Klyph said: mirrorbestfriend said: I didn't say he was heartless,just saying he could have done more black people embraced him when he first started when the establishment wouldnt let him in and I think he needs to make sure he never forgets that we were his origianl fan base before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. If it doesnt hurt when you give you really not giving Are you black? Do you even know Prince's history? Wouldn't let him in? Whatdafunk?!!!! Dude got a record deal when he was 16! Black America thought for the most part he was weird! His first 2 albums sold like crap until AFTER Purple Rain came out! I just don't know what to say!! Uhm, that's incorrect. It's great to have discourse and differing opinions, but it should be accurate. "Soft and Wet" and "I Wanna B Your Lover" were all over black radio. Black audiences embraced Prince long before white audiences, which is why a conserted effort was made to cross him over to the mainstream with 1999 and Purple Rain. White people started listening to Prince in numbers around Dirty Mind, his third album. But black radio was playing Prince long before Purple Rain. perfection is a fallacy of the imagination... | |
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PurpleCharm said: sosgemini said: im sorry but why are you dragging me into your drama? Drama??? You're funny.
Anywho...go back and re-read my prior post. It was addressed to you, not mirrorbestfriend. That's why I asked if he was you because he answered as if I was talking him. [Edited 6/4/07 7:59am] 
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Also, I wanted to add that Prince has helped his people over the years. He has given so much money to Marva Collins' school here in Chicago. If you don't know, in 1975 Marva Collins started a school for inner-city black youth in Chicago because she felt the public schools system didn't care about them.
Prince was giving that school money for years. Everytime he came to Chicago he'd give them tickets to his shows as well and they often sell them as a fundraiser. His involvement with Marva got press because she was in the "Most Beautiful Girl" video, but their relationship goes way back before that. He might not walk around with a camera crew or do billboards and commercials to publicize what he does and promote himself to the world as a humanitarian, but he does do for his people. perfection is a fallacy of the imagination... | |
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bellanoche said: Also, I wanted to add that Prince has helped his people over the years. He has given so much money to Marva Collins' school here in Chicago. If you don't know, in 1975 Marva Collins started a school for inner-city black youth in Chicago because she felt the public schools system didn't care about them.
Prince was giving that school money for years. Everytime he came to Chicago he'd give them tickets to his shows as well and they often sell them as a fundraiser. His involvement with Marva got press because she was in the "Most Beautiful Girl" video, but their relationship goes way back before that. He might not walk around with a camera crew or do billboards and commercials to publicize what he does and promote himself to the world as a humanitarian, but he does do for his people. $10,000.00 is nothing to prince and thats all he gave that school? Where was he when New Orleans needed him? Has he been to the Lower ninth ward since Katrina? NO I would be more forgiving to his sellout if he was giving back to the people who started him!blacks and then he want to get mad at us because we didnt run out and get black sweat? Prince is worth 76.2 Million! what he need verizon for? what he need citibank for? its greed people. | |
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bellanoche said: Klyph said: Are you black? Do you even know Prince's history? Wouldn't let him in? Whatdafunk?!!!! Dude got a record deal when he was 16! Black America thought for the most part he was weird! His first 2 albums sold like crap until AFTER Purple Rain came out! I just don't know what to say!! Uhm, that's incorrect. It's great to have discourse and differing opinions, but it should be accurate. "Soft and Wet" and "I Wanna B Your Lover" were all over black radio. Black audiences embraced Prince long before white audiences, which is why a conserted effort was made to cross him over to the mainstream with 1999 and Purple Rain. White people started listening to Prince in numbers around Dirty Mind, his third album. But black radio was playing Prince long before Purple Rain. Did I ever say Black radio didn't play Prince? What I said was for the most part Black America thought he was weird, and they did, way before Dirty Mind came out. That's one of the reasons trying to market him as the next Stevie or Michael failed, because he wasn't some cookie cutter , cute faced, accessible young black male. And you are right, we did like I Wanna B Your Lover and Soft and Wet, but the after Dirty Mind, black America starting turning away because of the "rock" sound. To give another example of the same syndrome, George Clinton started Funkadelic as a means of putting out his "rock" vision because Parliament, the funky shit, was what Black America liked. If he had just turned Parliament's sound into rock, it would have been disaster. When people say his "original" fan base, the make it seem like dude was all about so-called Black music for years then all of sudden switched! He made 2 albums before the "switch" and those 2 albums had their rock moments, one of which was a single that went basically nowhere on the black charts. (And actually, the first "consorted" effort was to make him be more,ummmm....Black.) [Edited 6/4/07 9:05am] | |
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Klyph said: bellanoche said: Uhm, that's incorrect. It's great to have discourse and differing opinions, but it should be accurate. "Soft and Wet" and "I Wanna B Your Lover" were all over black radio. Black audiences embraced Prince long before white audiences, which is why a conserted effort was made to cross him over to the mainstream with 1999 and Purple Rain. White people started listening to Prince in numbers around Dirty Mind, his third album. But black radio was playing Prince long before Purple Rain. Did I ever say Black radio didn't play Prince? What I said was for the most part Black America thought he was weird, and they did, way before Dirty Mind came out. That's one of the reasons trying to market him as the next Stevie or Michael failed, because he wasn't some cookie cutter , cute faced, accessible young black male. And you are right, we did like I Wanna B Your Lover and Soft and Wet, but the after Dirty Mind, black America starting turning away because of the "rock" sound. To give another example of the same syndrome, George Clinton started Funkadelic as a means of putting out his "rock" vision because Parliament, the funky shit, was what Black America liked. If he had just turned Parliament's sound into rock, it would have been disaster. When people say his "original" fan base, the make it seem like dude was all about so-called Black music for years then all of sudden switched! He made 2 albums before the "switch" and those 2 albums had their rock moments, one of which was a single that went basically nowhere on the black charts. (And actually, the first "consorted" effort was to make him be more,ummmm....Black.) [Edited 6/4/07 9:05am] wrong again black america was there for dirty mind and controversy dude you must be making this stuff up? | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: Klyph said: Did I ever say Black radio didn't play Prince? What I said was for the most part Black America thought he was weird, and they did, way before Dirty Mind came out. That's one of the reasons trying to market him as the next Stevie or Michael failed, because he wasn't some cookie cutter , cute faced, accessible young black male. And you are right, we did like I Wanna B Your Lover and Soft and Wet, but the after Dirty Mind, black America starting turning away because of the "rock" sound. To give another example of the same syndrome, George Clinton started Funkadelic as a means of putting out his "rock" vision because Parliament, the funky shit, was what Black America liked. If he had just turned Parliament's sound into rock, it would have been disaster. When people say his "original" fan base, the make it seem like dude was all about so-called Black music for years then all of sudden switched! He made 2 albums before the "switch" and those 2 albums had their rock moments, one of which was a single that went basically nowhere on the black charts. (And actually, the first "consorted" effort was to make him be more,ummmm....Black.) [Edited 6/4/07 9:05am] wrong again black america was there for dirty mind and controversy dude you must be making this stuff up? ummm...no. If they were still "there" why didn't Dirty Mind sell as much as Prince? Huh? Of course some where there, but definitely no in the same numbers. Do you think Prince is a better record than Dirty Mind? As much as I like Prince (the artist) Prince (the album) is one of the most contrived records I think he has ever put out. [Edited 6/4/07 9:13am] | |
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sosgemini said: but even aimee mann has sold out a couple times and made appearances on WB shows to gain interest in an album. "Man, I hate playing vamp towns..." "Half of what I say is meaningless; but I say it so that the other half may reach you." - Kahlil Gibran | |
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 Guitar | |
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Klyph said: mirrorbestfriend said: wrong again black america was there for dirty mind and controversy dude you must be making this stuff up? ummm...no. If they were still "there" why didn't Dirty Mind sell as much as Prince? Huh? Of course some where there, but definitely no in the same numbers. Do you think Prince is a better record than Dirty Mind? As much as I like Prince (the artist) Prince (the album) is one of the most contrived records I think he has ever put out. [Edited 6/4/07 9:13am] Dirty Mind's subject matter was the problem there. He definitely pushed the boundaries and some Black Radio stations were restricted from playing those tracks. I'm not any kind of authority just have a good memory. I have to say that the NAACP speech comes to mind. Remember what he said after the Planet Earth lyrics. Even then he gave us an inkling, but noone knew what he was talking about. Now the renaissance he spoke of is starting with him. I can only hope that this will be best for him and the music industry. He's always ahead of his time. I don't consider him a sellout only that he's learned to play their game to his advantage. Kudos to him for that!!! Just for the record Prince donated the proceeds of S.S.T. to New Orleans for Katrina victims. He purposely doesn't blow his horn when it comes to charity, so don't try to say he's not charitable. [Edited 6/4/07 9:33am] | |
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ejnbmore said: Klyph said: ummm...no. If they were still "there" why didn't Dirty Mind sell as much as Prince? Huh? Of course some where there, but definitely no in the same numbers. Do you think Prince is a better record than Dirty Mind? As much as I like Prince (the artist) Prince (the album) is one of the most contrived records I think he has ever put out. [Edited 6/4/07 9:13am] Dirty Mind's subject matter was the problem there. He definitely pushed the boundaries and some Black Radio stations were restricted from playing those tracks. I'm not any kind of authority just have a good memory. I have to say that the NAACP speech comes to mind. Remember what he said after the Planet Earth lyrics. Even then he gave us an inkling, but noone knew what he was talking about. Now the renaissance he spoke of is starting with him. I can only hope that this will be best for him and the music industry. He's always ahead of his time. I don't consider him a sellout only that he's learned to play their game to his advantage. Kudos to him for that!!! Just for the record Prince donated the proceeds of S.S.T. to New Orleans for Katrina victims. He purposely doesn't blow his horn when it comes to charity, so don't try to say he's not charitable. [Edited 6/4/07 9:33am] SST sold 10 copies what he sent a 300.00 check to new orleans! it aint charity if it dont HURT! | |
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Didn't read any of this thread besides flying over the initial post, but how exactly is chosing a big retailer so-to-speak, 'selling out'? I mean, HOW? Why? I just don't get it. Where does this notion come from that only indie label or otherwise indepentend releases are have integrity or whatever? | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: Klyph said: Exactly! Out of all the things I posted he picked that to argue with! What did you give? I don't know, just like you don't know what he gave. he didnt give a mill I know that! yall Know Prince is selfish If he cared he would have went to houston and done a FREE concert for those people who were going through so much the NBA players went down there Shaq,Jordan,Kobe had 3 18 wheelers full of food and water with them....Did prince do that? NO but he will go to Texas for a wedding but not to help his own people? how sad? I love Prince more than anyone but I also realize he needs to check his ego at the door Yeah, because doing a free concert would've solved all their problems, huh?!?! And to help 'his own people'...???
Ok, so by your last few comments and your start date, I can tell this is a bunch of hogwash and you're just trolling. No more responses to you from me. buh-bye! | |
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Seems like Prince can do no wrong.HE often says one thing and does another. | |
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sosgemini said: Serena said: I get what you mean by that, but that isn't what I was referring to anyway. It's this statement you made: "umm, who are we to judge a person and how they earn their money?", but then you turn around and say: "how about not giving a damn and making music for the craft versus the economics?". Aren't you judging him and how he makes his money?  no, im just pointing out there are two models to being a musician that an artist can take... and for those who question my logic there are four artist whom i can think of that don't bother going the route prince does each album (ie, sponsorship): aimee mann, bjork, sufjan stevens and ani difranco. but even aimee mann has sold out a couple times and made appearances on WB shows to gain interest in an album. and like i said about prince, aint nothing wrong with that. So...promotion = 'selling out'?
Well then, it could be said that Bjork sells out by wearing wacky clothes to events so she gets her picture taken and gets talked about. If she wasn't hoping to get attention (which is was promotion does), then she'd wear jeans & a t-shirt instead of a swan outfit. Anyway, you're still judging him (them) and HOW they make their money. If it's done in a way you approve of, it's ok. Your saying that Aimee 'sold out' by appearing on WB = JUDGEMENT. If you had said she 'appeared' on WB, that's an observation and statement, but what you said is judging. | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: ejnbmore said: Dirty Mind's subject matter was the problem there. He definitely pushed the boundaries and some Black Radio stations were restricted from playing those tracks. I'm not any kind of authority just have a good memory. I have to say that the NAACP speech comes to mind. Remember what he said after the Planet Earth lyrics. Even then he gave us an inkling, but noone knew what he was talking about. Now the renaissance he spoke of is starting with him. I can only hope that this will be best for him and the music industry. He's always ahead of his time. I don't consider him a sellout only that he's learned to play their game to his advantage. Kudos to him for that!!! Just for the record Prince donated the proceeds of S.S.T. to New Orleans for Katrina victims. He purposely doesn't blow his horn when it comes to charity, so don't try to say he's not charitable. [Edited 6/4/07 9:33am] SST sold 10 copies what he sent a 300.00 check to new orleans! it aint charity if it dont HURT! It's always amazing to see how quickly some people are to judge how other people spend their money. WTF does it matter what some pop star does for charity to you or me? I do know that Prince has done multiple things over the years for charity that are often low key. There's something to be said for the celebrity who doesn't insist on press coverage every time they write a check. Regardless of what we may think, we don't know, and it's none of our business. "What kind of fuck ending is that?" | |
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dlher777 said: Seems like Prince can do no wrong.HE often says one thing and does another.
That's called being human. "What kind of fuck ending is that?" | |
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Serena said: sosgemini said: no, im just pointing out there are two models to being a musician that an artist can take... and for those who question my logic there are four artist whom i can think of that don't bother going the route prince does each album (ie, sponsorship): aimee mann, bjork, sufjan stevens and ani difranco. but even aimee mann has sold out a couple times and made appearances on WB shows to gain interest in an album. and like i said about prince, aint nothing wrong with that. So...promotion = 'selling out'?
Well then, it could be said that Bjork sells out by wearing wacky clothes to events so she gets her picture taken and gets talked about. If she wasn't hoping to get attention (which is was promotion does), then she'd wear jeans & a t-shirt instead of a swan outfit. Anyway, you're still judging him (them) and HOW they make their money. If it's done in a way you approve of, it's ok. Your saying that Aimee 'sold out' by appearing on WB = JUDGEMENT. If you had said she 'appeared' on WB, that's an observation and statement, but what you said is judging. are you dong arguing semantics? Space for sale... | |
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sosgemini said: Serena said: So...promotion = 'selling out'?
Well then, it could be said that Bjork sells out by wearing wacky clothes to events so she gets her picture taken and gets talked about. If she wasn't hoping to get attention (which is was promotion does), then she'd wear jeans & a t-shirt instead of a swan outfit. Anyway, you're still judging him (them) and HOW they make their money. If it's done in a way you approve of, it's ok. Your saying that Aimee 'sold out' by appearing on WB = JUDGEMENT. If you had said she 'appeared' on WB, that's an observation and statement, but what you said is judging. are you dong arguing semantics? Boy, you just won't admit that you contradicted yourself, will you? But, yes, I'm dong. | |
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mirrorbestfriend said: NuPwr319 said:  If music should NEVER mix with business, how are we (I'm a musician) supposed to make a living? I shouldn't want to get paid doing what I love? I think you underestimate P's "riches". He's at a point now where he's got MAJOR bills to pay. He's working to make a living and to pay the folks on his payroll. Is he just supposed to fire everybody, shut down PP and retire? And just play at coffee houses for free? Is that what you're trying to say?Prince could live off his ascap royalties no sweat....He only pays his band members $500.00 a week each so thats not that much....you dont need millions to produce art. all you need is food water and shelter.the other stuff is greed Why hasnt he done anything for new orleans to help? $500 a week???? You gotta be kidding me! *I* make more than that!!!! His band members are getting WAAAAAYYYYY more than that. And as has been mentioned before, he DID do something for New Orleans. And who knows who else he has helped--folks don't always but they bidness in da streets. | |
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