for me, Prince is back to true form w/ ONA

Supernova said:

So is there the possibility that Prince used 1999 for Purple Rain and in fact only Dirty Mind and Controversy were true Prince albums as 1999 and everything since has had the shadow of Purpla Rain hanging over it?

Just a question. I think not actually. Maybe Purple Rain, an idea conceived before 1999, changed in concept as the USA took 1999 and the Triple Threat Tour on board? Remember that Prince had the first go, William Blinn then had a second go and Albert Magnoli reckons the film we saw was his vision of Prince...this would mean that Albert was working on a vision of Prince gleaned from the press and interviews ... hence Purple Rain suddenly becomes a post-1999 project.

rdhull said:

I just wanted to post and say that you are an idiot.

If you think that Parade (as well as the Parade tour) as well as Sign O The Times wasn't Prince at his best, you need to find the biggest Graffiti Bridge you can find, and throw yourself off of it.

That was one of the most idiotic statements ever made on the Org.

I'll give you credit, because that's HARD to do.

Very interesting assessment! "1999" is in my opinion the crowning achievement of his early career. "Lovesexy" is the crowning achievement of his later career, in my opinion. "Dirty Mind" and "Controversy" are both fantastic as well!

ButterscotchPimp said:

Hi other idiot ..you think Prince could have went from I wanna Be Your Lover right to Patade and SOTT without first going thru DM, CONT, and 1999 then you are another idiot..be with me. Pay attention to the thread. And to others I realize what I stated may SEEM radical etc. but I dont expect certain truths to be swallowed so easily. They are jagged lil pills.
[This message was edited Tue Sep 17 18:27:03 PDT 2002 by rdhull]

BoySimon said:

Ummm, don't know. The true Prince albums theory is RD's idea. I understand what he's saying, but I don't know if I agree 100%. All I'm saying is;

I think anything that he creates that comes across as an effort to challenge himself and his listeners is TRUE PRINCE MUSIC. It doesn't have to be innovative to be challenging. Those things aren't always one and the same. And no human being is capable of being innovative every time for a long career.

Purple Rain wasn't the first time he tried for commercial success, and trying to have that is not a bad thing, unless you become an entirely different record artist for it, and/or completely water down your musical convictions for it. If anyone is saying he did that with the album, I don't agree. "Doves" is still singular. That initial blast of psychedelic guitar, nothing but synth, voices and a drum machine. The arrangement is pure Prince, and pure genius. "Nikki" is infamous for the Tipper Gore hissy fit that came afterwards and launched the PMRC - how can you not like that? As Prince rock songs go, the 12" version of "Let's Go Crazy" is one of his best rock songs. It's sublime with the mid section of Vanity 6's "Drive Me Wild" thrown in and that staccato piano, the organ intro tells you SOMETHING GOOD IS COMING. "Computer Blue" is melodic, new wave rock sludge - and that's a good thing. Only the kook always known as Prince would come up with an intro like;

"Wendy?"
"Yes, Lisa?"
"Is the water warm enough?"
"Yes, Lisa."
"Shall we begin?"
"Yes, Lisa."

THAT'S Prince.

I don't think a lot of people realize what "I Would Die 4 U" is about (maybe because Prince's father in the movie says it to his wife), yet it's just another Prince song about Jesus;

If you're evil I'll forgive u by & by...

No need to worry
No need to cry
I'm your messiah
And you're the reason why
U - I would die 4 U...

You're just a sinner
I am told
I'll be your fire when you're cold
I'll make u happy when you're sad
I'll make you good when u r bad
I'm not a human
I am a dove
I am your conscious
I am love
All I really need is 2 know that U believe - I would die 4 U...

Personally, PR was an album I couldn't figure out when it was new. I didn't exactly embrace it that fateful Summer of 1984 when it was released. It was...different. And unique. My ears had yet to adjust. It was hard to figure out what the hell he was trying to do. It grew on me.

Purple Rain among hardcore Prince fans is usually not talked about in the same fawning, hushed tones as some of his other albums, and that's not necessarily because it wasn't groundbreaking when it was new. Upon its release there was nothing that sounded remotely like it, except of course snippets of some of his own previous songs. Because by then he had already developed his own sound. When I say Prince fans are jaded about it, it's not a putdown, it's just something I've noticed, and probably something that would have been unlikely to NOT happen given all the airplay its been given over the years.

Familiarity breeds contempt, and it can happen with ANY album, no matter how groundbreaking it was. Radio saturation and over-playing (which I'm not saying PR is - it's just played the most among his albums) can KILL any music. It happened to Zep's "Stairway To Heaven" (and the Zoso album), it happened to Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album, it happened to MJ's Thriller, it happened to Frampton's Frampton Comes Alive...etc. Any albums that sell that much automatically come with a backlash after becoming so successful - among both bandwagon fans, and the hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool followers. For different reasons.

And admittedly, over the years there has been no reason for me personally to listen to Purple Rain all the way through for a long time now (although I'm not married to mainstream radio I do listen once a blue moon and you'll hear at least a few songs from PR on it).

But I have listened to 1999 from beginning to end a couple of times within the past few months. 1999 is one of Prince's top tier albums. I don't see how ANY longtime, true Prince fan can not like it - that doesn't mean I think it has to be their favorite, it just means I think it's one of those albums that represents his essence so much that a true Prince fan can't ignore it.

I can listen to it without skipping anything, and it gets better as it goes along, to me. I remember having the album (vinyl) back when it was new, and I had never heard anything like that. I had never heard anyone say the things he was saying on a song, I had never heard the type of musical execution he demonstrated on it. Prince says synthesizers represent freedom to him. I think that's pretty clear. Listening to his first 4 albums, For You thru Controversy, then listening to 1999...it was a clear leap in growth. But it was Dirty Mind where he amalgamated his own sound for the first time for the entire duration of an album. In subsequent albums he fleshed out that sound and further embellished it.

ButterscotchPimp said:

Lighten up, it's not that serious.

To me, Prince will always be Prince. He is a very intricate personality and I am not trying to dissect it to discover "who he really is" and "when he really is it" that is just plain unintelligible to suggest. I know there are many different sides to him, but they are all a part of who he is!

And i'm sticking to my theory.

Org-ers are notorious for trying to state the ridiculous in orders to vailidate their own lame-ass take on Prince.

If you want to seriously attempt to discuss this asinine take, fine.

First of all, I guess for you to attempt to validate your opinion, we'd have to assume that Prince had the same sound from 80-83. Which he didn't.

I state that when Prince was "really Prince", he was doing what he always did best. Changing.

For You was all about coming out of the disco-driven 70's.
Prince was all about the beginning of the 80's. Still a little bit disco, a LOT of synth, tons of harmonies.

By the time he got to Dirty Mind, the albums solidified a lot more. Dirty Mind was primarily a guitar record. Yes it was a very sexual record, but if you listen to the instrumentation, it was very much a guitar driven record.

Now according to your limited view, simply because Controversy was somewhat sexual too, those 2 records are similar. They're not. Controversy unlike Dirty Mind was primarily a keyboard record with most of the tracks being driven by the synth or the piano. It also was a much more political/religious record than a "sexual" record.

You little theory has already been shot to hell, and we haven't even gotten to 1999, which was a gradual step-up from Controversy. Still more of a synth-driven record, this was Prince at his pop-finest. Still somewhat sexual, a little political, and very accessible. If you're going to accuse Prince of trying to become mainstream, you could argue that this was where it began. But I don't think that was the case. I think that the industry changed to what Prince was doing.

Now Purple Rain wasn't Prince playing to the masses, it was again a gradual step up from 1999. Still getting better at crafting pop songs, he incorporates more guitar, and more piano with some live performances and turned in an album that I argue without the movie, STILL would have been a smash hit.

Now I would argue if you want to pick an era where Prince was "really Prince", it would be AFTER Purple Rain.

Around the World In a Day was classic Prince. Since he'd always changed from album to album WITHOUT catering to the public, he made sure to make an album that absolutely could NOT be accused of riding on the coattails of Purple Rain. Gone were the well-crafted pop songs. Relying heavily on lush string arrangements and using more obscure Indian influenced instrumentation, Prince purposely attempted to shake off all of his new fair-weather fans.

Parade, probably his finest effort to date, was Prince really stretching to be more than a synth/guitar pop idol. He let Wendy and Lisa go to town on string arrangements and used some of his movie score to create a masterpiece with the exception of a few tracks, had no place on pop radio. Even "Kiss", which got tons of airplay was so unusual from everything else on the radio at the time with it's peculiar lack of a bassline, you can't seriously accuse him of catering to the public when he did that record.

And then Sign. After pretty much spending the last 3 albums as a "group" with the Revolution having lots of input in the creative process, Prince took back the reigns and went nuts in his new studio, Paisley Park with many of the album tracks being recorded before the studio was even completed being buily. Speeding up his voice on many tracks, he's all over the place on this one. And it's all good. Back were the drum machines and synths. Getting away from the string arrangements from the last 2 records, he tries to get back to funky, fun music again.

You sure you STILL want to discuss this with me?

ButterscotchPimp said:

Did I say that?..dont assume. Ive stated everything clearly and succinctly--if you dont get it well then thats expected. And it seems you are upset so thats a good thing so far...Prince analyses inspiring sparks in folks sleeping is always a good thing. You owe me



And you assuming what I think shows you are way off track again and do not get it. As for the rest of the diatribe that makes you THINK you are schooling me (as if that shit aint been said before and not that I dont agree with many of the sentiments) but you simply are not getting my point. And that is yes he changes,,..but the first imoportant change and essence of what Prince was that influenced his other stages was DM, CONT, and 1999. Pay fucking attention.



No it hasnt because you on the wrong level-page. And seeing that you are pissed about it(and dont say u arent ) shows that I must have lit a spark. Hey at least gimme credit for getting yo ass inspired. You may be wrong but at least youre inspired. Im a muse!



Why are you reiterating whats known already? Why the analyses of this etc..has nothing to do with what I said. Again pay attention.



! But you deny the triumverate of DM, CONT, 1999...okaaayyy! He wasnt Prince as we know him during DM-1999??Nice one hoss..there goes YOUR theory..



Yu aint said shit that aint already known--you just didnt get the point that has been said a couple of times. But thats ok. I don expect everyone to get it right away or see it for what it really means. I mean I got you to write a whole analyses thats already known and agreed upon in general , but it was written for the wrong reasons..the reasons that u dont get it. Sure I can discuss this more with u..its not like..imma scared or that you are actually schooliing me. If and when I do get schooled believe me--Im the first to admit it and say it. Come to da bridge with me still...cause you aint said nuthin new. Now I know this will be an ego thing with you and you will never be able to change your views to save face, but dot worry. I know and will know when deep in your heart you actually agree with me but cant admit it. Lets jump off the bridge like Danny Glover and Mel Gibson jumped off that building in Lethal Weapon
[This message was edited Wed Sep 18 10:19:27 PDT 2002 by rdhull]

Typical Org bullshit.

First of all, don't take my annoyance at the stupidity of the topic as me being "pissed". Believe me, i don't lose sleep over any of the nonsense that goes on around the Org.

And as i thought, you don't know WHAT it is you're trying to say.

I'm not the jackass that tried to limit what Prince is to 3 albums. And THAT'S the point. I don't think that everything that came later is a direct result of those 3 records. YOU wrote "Prince was only Prince 1980-1983". Perhaps you should have wrote, "All Prince's music derived from the groundwork laid down by...blah, blah, blah. I actually find "Prince" as relevant as "Dirty Mind". I find Parade and Sign MORE relevant than all 3 of those albums combined.

Any Prince fan worth his/her salt, would probably have to agree that Prince didn't lose his stride at all until somewhere between the whole Black Album/Lovesexy phase or Grafitti Bridge.

And as I thought, you're not qualified to even have this discussion with me.

I'm bored.

Next?

Supernova - Do you think that one of the problems concerning Prince's later music was the cleaning up of the production values at Paisley Park? The music up until this time was largely recorded at a number of studios, and then thru PR to Lovesexy in the warehouse, the being built and then the finally completed Paisley Park complex. After Lovesexy everything sounds so very clean - which is one of the shames of the Crystal Ball album where he has re-recorded or remixed elements of the bootleg songs so as to air-brush out unwanted appearances or eleminate aspects of songs that he didn't feel warrented airplay.

I really have a hard time with Purple Rain. It is a wonderful album, but there is a feeling of trying too hard on it. The people of the time with Prince are often quoted as saying things along the lines of "He knew that this was going to be big" or some other such stuff ...which to some extent is only to be expected after the way the US had taken to 1999. But Purple Rain sounds, to me, like he took the reaction to 1999 and honed it to make sure it would maximise it's sales potential. 1999 is commercial becasue, for one of the few genuine times in music (I believe) a kind of music came along that made everyone stand up and take notice. It is commercial not becasue it has followed a formula but becasue it has created one. Purple Rain is a watered down version of 1999 and it worked superbly. Too well, because when Prince decided not to Purple Rain II as his next album the wheels suddenly started to fall of the wagon.

Prince has always been a Musician&a Business Man.always Has Always will be."Purple Rain" worked on many levels.A Smart tie in with Film&KnockOut Debut Single.not to Mention MichaelMania had been so Huge for so Long.Timing is always Important&Prince knows this as well as anybody.80-88 is My Favorite Era of Prince's Work.I think starting with "Lovesexy" Onward He truly started listening to Folks Telling Him His Stuff was maybe too Thin Sounding.despite Number 1 Success with "When Doves Cry&Kiss.Peer Pressure had to have gotten to Him.Jimmy Jam stated along time ago that Prince had Mapped out His first few years.the difference with Now versus then is that you see Prince Planning&thinking more Outwardly.back then He Had the Right Managment Fragnoli,Cavillo,Ruffalo,along with Himself His Band,etc.. are working for the Common Goal of Taking Him to the Top.He got a Warning with "Dirty Mind" Which almost cost Him His Deal.So He quickly knew what He had to do.Prince is a Thinker on His Career always has been&probably always will.Prince is No Different than any other Major Pop Artist: He has a Formula&He will use it.the Black Album was the Album where Other Lips got into His Mind on how to Present His Music.while I Ain't crazy about the "Rainbow Children" at least He finally is getting back to His Own type of Groove a bit.but regardless Prince has always been Prince.He might Trip you out but the Guy plans all His Actions.

ButterscotchPimp said:

...of course you dont



No..your the dipshit that doesnt get the point.



Um...no. You cant make up what the point is. Noice..no, bad try.



Thats cause you caint com-pre-hend whats spoon-fed to ya



I know what I wrote.



yeah maybe I should have written it that way..but as explained many times (and mainly to you..lil yellow schoolbus syndrome) that was the point..it took your ass this long to finally undrstand it but to save face you cant just say "ahhh, I seee". Its ok. I understand.



LOLOL comedy!! Ok, Ptrince is more relevant than DM in Princedom..okayyy lololol. Man you are full of shit. Prince more relevant and Parade more relevant than DM, CONT, 1999 combined LOLOLOL.Yeah..ok. Please lawd, quit trippin. Eithe r you are trippin or youse da idiot and no need to worry about jumping off Graffiti Bridge, just shoot your dumbass in the face ...heres some bullets. Idiocy like tat cannot be allowed. Phew you are comedy!!! (Whats it got to do with relevancy? If it wasnt for those 3 albums you wouldnt have shit to find relevant fool.



Why you bring this up? Oh..to VALIDATE YOUR OWN VIEWS. And you accused me of doing that earlier lol. Man u should a quit..what a fuckin dumbass.



Oh gawd ...the "Im a little bitch" route

PRINCE IS THE MAN!
Only a lil fella like that (really a Big Man) can make people debate the way this thread is!
PRINCE u still ROCK.
U Prince. U r an

CherrieMoonKisses said:

Agreed! But it isnt a debate...Im trying to exchange shots of knowledge but Butterscotchpimp is unarmed. God bless him for trying though..god bless 'em

The problem I have with this argument is that there is this mentality that Prince was doing pure "Prince music" from 80 to 83, when in reality he was just as influenced by trends, underground, and his favorite groups back then as he was when he made the Beatlesesque "Around the World in a Day" and the rap/ hip-hop inspired Symbol album. Everybody acts like 1999 was just completely innovative and the true essence of Prince, but I'm telling you, there was a lot of synth-funk on the scene in and before 1982. Just because Prince did synth-funk a tad differently doesn't mean he directly defines the genre. Like I said, he did the Beatles thing a tad differently with the Around the World album.

The point is, every artist is influenced by someone else, there is very little purely original music in the world, and I don't think Prince's music is one of those completely original types. His music is more of a mixed bag of different styles melded into his own. That's another problem I have with some old fans- they think that the only true Prince music is synth-funk, or as rdhull put it, the music of 1980-1983- and that's complete bullshit.

That said I can still see the point he is trying to make, but the point is as worthy as saying, "Without the For You album, there would've been no Prince album." It's a thin statement.

jtgillia said:

Ok let me try to explain it better for those who responded. Hopefuly I can to get it across. It isnt about influences, or later works that rose higher in depth etc. Im saying that after Prince, he embraced Uptown. Became the cool ruler. He found his niche' in what he wanted and how he wanted to get there. It took 3 albums of music and touring to cement his image and vision. Once that was firmly set in place then he concentrated on muisc on a higher level. Not that the holy triumverate cant take one higher.But with his vision and image and skills honed, he was able to allow others in. A great many other influences as well. He was able to do the left turn of ATWIAD, Parade etc. Because he had went through the personal inside of him,the outpouring of DM,CONT, 1999. It isnt an old school new school battle . It isnt that superficial or silly even though I joked about it. Its more than that..including brain chemistry. The brain doesnt fully develop until way after 17 etc. The images, joys, feelings duriog youth are endilible and long lasting. The brain also since still in growth is reason that teens and adults butt heads. You cant change a teens actions ..you cant preach to them..they are gonna do what they want etc. It isnt physically possible to fully comprehend the knowledge of life that adults sometimes give. Of course this is in general and my own theory. That is why the old school new school battle is moot at times. In each generation , what you grow up with is engrained in you as pleasure or hate etc. Of course each generation will scoff at mostly the old and only appreciate the new..IN GENERAL. Thats the brain chemistry part. So yes..some of the old stuff is an affinity to those who were there at the time. BUT...thats like me saying "Oh, Undercover by the Stones is so much better than Exile on Main Street". Just because one has grown with the newer, doesnt mean that the older should be discounted.Thats what some expressions are like. I neve r said SOTT was not worthy or not prince but another alter ego--I never said that Gold isnt good..I never said that For You doesnt have some merit. Regardless if DM, CONT, 1999 was from way back when and before some fans were born, to deny any of them or their importance in the creation of all this purple rock, is foolish. (I mean look at the reaction that Something In The Water and All The Critics got at the cele. If that mutherfucker had pklayed Sexuality, folks here who are decrying Contorversy wouioda lost their minds and dont lie and say you wouldnt).I guess I should say... IMHO.

What a wonderful debate! Personally, I think that Prince has needed to go through the process of each album before creating the succeeding album. My brother and I have analyzed it thoroughly- looking at every other album in his catalogue (e.g. For You, Dirty Mind, 1999, ATWIAD, SOTT, etc.) makes NO sense. He needed Purple Rain before he could delve into ATWIAD. Likewise, he needed 1999 before he could launch Purple Rain. However, the aura of Prince during 1980-1983 was definitely one of his most intriguing- it captures an artist on the verge of superstardom, KNOWING that the material he was creating was groundbreaking and basking in that knowledge. His confidence (borderline arrogance) during these 3 albums shines through in the sass of the funk and the images on the album, as well as the tour footage. This was Prince before he became a household name, the Prince fighting for accolades and a place in the industry. What an exciting time it must have been to like Prince back then.

BoySimon said:

That's a good point. Prince had established himself in the industry at that point commercially, and subsequently like a lot of artists who do that they acquire "vanity record labels" from their major label and the trappings of success that comes with it. I've said this before; I believe that Prince truly became a FAT CAT starting in the very late 80s. Not just because he was successful, but because the music he started releasing at that time reflected it. He got comfortable, and less hungry.

BUT, at the same time he really started to clash with WB about certain things. Then there is the burn-out aspect - remember now, Prince has always been a workaholic. He releases albums at a rate that the vast majority of recording artists don't. It's not always new, but with his backlog of material, he's always recording.

I think those things combined made him do certain things out of spite for WB. I have no proof of it, but I really do believe that he released material that he thought was hit-worthy, but at the same time wasn't what HE thought was his best material either. And subsequently he released material that was very half-assed even compared to the hit-worthy music as he got even more disgruntled in the early 90s with the shake-up at WB behind the scenes. It seems he didn't realize it was alienating his audience, or just didn't care and didn't think it would effect him as much as it would.

Yes, I sort of think the building Paisley Park had something to do with his non-chalance musically. It didn't have to be that way just because it was all his, but I believe that's the way it turned out. The music started to become more slick, and very little was left to chance. He sullied his reputation. Like I said before, there was a time that I had completely given up on Prince because I KNEW he was coasting.


That's cool. You're entitled to your opinion. Like I said, I don't listen to it much, but I don't believe it was watered down. The public was starting to come around to Prince more than Prince was coming around to the pop audience. Sure, there are plenty of hooks in those songs to sing along to (which doesn't mean it wasn't challenging) but hey...that's partly what the world holds the Beatles up on such a pedestal for.


But see, although both albums have the common denominators of Prince, and his sound, it's sort of apples and oranges.

PR was a single album with 9 songs, and lasted less than 45 minutes. The songs are more concise. Only one song on it is more than 6 minutes long.

1999 was a double album with 11 songs, and lasts over 70 minutes - yet only about 4 of the songs are less than 6 minutes long.

I could see how one would like the stretching out aspect of it.

jtgillia said:

Who said there wasn't a lot of synth/funk back then?

Just because the Beatles did pop differently doesn't mean they directly define the genre either, but the world seems to think so and concludes they're gods because of it.

Miles Davis did Jazz differently too, is it not enough that he was an innovator in the genre, but yet was just another in the long line of Jazz musicians?

Perspective is missing.

Moonbeam said:

You are correct, Sir.

jtgillia said:

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

rdhull said:

Now was that so hard?

Couldn't you just have resisted the typical Org urge to say something really stupid to provoke an argument, than to actually give an opinion, and then to back it up?

I do agree with that take.

Next time, say that!!!

rdhull
[This message was edited Thu Sep 19 9:33:41 PDT 2002 by ButterscotchPimp]

ButterscotchPimp said:

You damn right you couldnt

ButterscotchPimp said:

I like to make people work for their grade. Sift through the meaning. I forgot I have to spoon feed some.



Of course ..why wouldnt anyone..its the right thing to do.



word. It is just hard to have to explain thoroughly sometimes..its easier if people just take my word and trust it. Believe me..I know what Im doing



"You can learn to like this"-Janet
[This message was edited Thu Sep 19 10:09:40 PDT 2002 by rdhull]

There has come a point of originality in this debate. One of the above has mentioned something about there being a lot of synth based music around at the time of 1999 and that Prince's take was not original just a tweaking of the style many were adopting.

In many ways this is very true. In Britain there was a man by the name of Rick Wakeman that had been doing stuff with synths that many would weep over now. The same with bands like Emerson, Lake and Palmer. That said, it does not detract from the originality/creativity Prince brought to the world with 1999.

In times past there was a band called King Crimson; their guitar player was gent called Robert Fripp (he is married to Toyah Wilcox for all you pop-punk fans out there). Robert Fripp could play a guitar like no other...probably still can. There is footage of this man sat 'neath a spreading chestnut tree, surrounded with the vast catalogue of his guitar ownership and he plays a beautiful lament of such complexity it's a surprise his finger do not fall off. He then stops and, in all his post-hippy, prog-rock pomp announces to the camera that he would "love to be able to play the guitar". Up his own arse, yes, but the point is one well made. Many may have been peddling synth backed music, many may have been good, very good at it. With 1999 Prince took, not just the style of music, but the attitude to pop and the attitude, in many ways, to black music to another level - in a manner that bypassed the producer backed product of the other black act of the time.

Another of the contributors above mentioned the fact that only a few of the songs on 1999 conform to the 3/4 minute pop standard. This in itself, when you consider the popularity of the album, suggests that Prince had done something extremely correctly. The Prince of 1982 makes the Prince of 1984 look retired. There is a stark possibility that the Prince of 2002 is about to do something similar to the Prince of the latter nineties. Let's hope.

Wow, good thread! Everybody's got a different take on things, and yet, I agree with them all...