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Thread started 04/17/07 11:48am

Kacey725

Lyrics and Images post-Imus

I was thinking about posting this in the political section, but it does concern Prince and it's DEFINITELY about music...(and I haven't been in here lately so forgive me if this has been posted already).

In the aftermath of the firing of Don Imus for calling the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos," many have turned their attention to the hip hop community for perpetuating the use of this language that is denegrating to women and videos that are even more so.

With relation to Prince, we can observe a few things:
1. Prince is not "hip hop," but he has dabbled with it here and there ("Jughead," anyone? lol ).
2. There was a time when Prince wrote songs with lyrics that might be questionable in the current debate, but Prince has famously walked away from those kinds of lyrics in recent years.
3. Regardless of our personal feelings about these kinds of lyrics and what we listen to, it's been my experience that most Prince fans take their "Scarlet Pussy" with their "Beautiful, Loved and Blessed." In other words, we embrace the phases and contradictions as a part of our love for Prince and his music.
4. (This is the best part...) Prince fans are known for being wonderfully diverse in terms of race, gender, sexual orientation and economic backgrounds.

Having said all of this, I was watching Oprah go after Russell Simmons this morning and using India Arie as an example of artists who avoid this kind of content and wondering how my fellow orgers feel about all of it.

Just remember as you post: Love 4 One Another!
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Reply #1 posted 04/17/07 12:02pm

Graycap23

Prince does NOT make a living with sort of material. Given the depth of topics covered by Prince the last 30 years, he has probably covered everything under the sun.

The % of material by Prince in this vein is so small it's not measurable.
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Reply #2 posted 04/17/07 12:33pm

Snap

Kacey725 said:


2. There was a time when Prince wrote songs with lyrics that might be questionable in the current debate, but Prince has famously walked away from those kinds of lyrics in recent years.


I wouldn't say that, especially in regards to one's inner and outer hue.
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Reply #3 posted 04/17/07 12:45pm

NDRU

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Don Imus put down real girls (innocent, non-celebrity girls at that) who didn't deserve it.

If Prince degrades someone it's usually himself, or perhaps some hypothetical girl, or Abraham Lincoln (who can handle a little abuse at this point).
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Reply #4 posted 04/17/07 1:07pm

Kacey725

Snap said:

Kacey725 said:


2. There was a time when Prince wrote songs with lyrics that might be questionable in the current debate, but Prince has famously walked away from those kinds of lyrics in recent years.


I wouldn't say that, especially in regards to one's inner and outer hue.


Can you clarify, Snap? I'm interested in your take but wasn't sure what you meant...just in case anyone else didn't get it, too.

Keith
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Reply #5 posted 04/17/07 5:16pm

wlcm2thdwn

I don't understand why you would even bring Prince into this, He doesn't sing that type of music anymore.
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Reply #6 posted 04/17/07 5:21pm

kittylarue2

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Kacey725 said:

I was thinking about posting this in the political section, but it does concern Prince and it's DEFINITELY about music...(and I haven't been in here lately so forgive me if this has been posted already).

In the aftermath of the firing of Don Imus for calling the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos," many have turned their attention to the hip hop community for perpetuating the use of this language that is denegrating to women and videos that are even more so.

With relation to Prince, we can observe a few things:
1. Prince is not "hip hop," but he has dabbled with it here and there ("Jughead," anyone? lol ).
2. There was a time when Prince wrote songs with lyrics that might be questionable in the current debate, but Prince has famously walked away from those kinds of lyrics in recent years.
3. Regardless of our personal feelings about these kinds of lyrics and what we listen to, it's been my experience that most Prince fans take their "Scarlet Pussy" with their "Beautiful, Loved and Blessed." In other words, we embrace the phases and contradictions as a part of our love for Prince and his music.
4. (This is the best part...) Prince fans are known for being wonderfully diverse in terms of race, gender, sexual orientation and economic backgrounds.

Having said all of this, I was watching Oprah go after Russell Simmons this morning and using India Arie as an example of artists who avoid this kind of content and wondering how my fellow orgers feel about all of it.

Just remember as you post: Love 4 One Another!


Imus is a jerk. Most artist(Prince or otherwise) are singing to/or about some unspecified female. Imus directed his offensive onslaught to a specific group of females who were minding there own business. They did nothing to deserve being singled out like that.
[Edited 4/17/07 17:22pm]
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Reply #7 posted 04/17/07 5:42pm

JonnyApplesauc
e

How did Black men get blamed for Imus? What did it take an hour after he said it and it turns out to be our fault again huh? White America left Blacks lemons, we made lemonade, now diabetes is our fault, intestines, we made chitterlings, so we started heart trouble; old records, we made hip hop, and created Imus. Its all our fault. Pullleeeasse If I steal a loaf of bread can I skip jail and blame Bush?
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Reply #8 posted 04/17/07 5:54pm

CJBabyDaddy

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JonnyApplesauce said:

How did Black men get blamed for Imus? What did it take an hour after he said it and it turns out to be our fault again huh? White America left Blacks lemons, we made lemonade, now diabetes is our fault, intestines, we made chitterlings, so we started heart trouble; old records, we made hip hop, and created Imus. Its all our fault. Pullleeeasse If I steal a loaf of bread can I skip jail and blame Bush?



Only as long as it's Tayshawn Bush you're blamin'.
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Reply #9 posted 04/17/07 6:33pm

squirrelgrease

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Fuck Oprah. Fuck Imus. Fuck celebrity opinions-as-gospel.

Think for yourselves, and carry on.
If prince.org were to be made idiot proof, someone would just invent a better idiot.
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Reply #10 posted 04/17/07 6:42pm

SCNDLS

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Interesting show, I love hip-hop, don't like it's current state, but I'm selective about what I buy and vote with my dollar. Regardless, Russell and the rest of the panel did pass the buck and laid it all at society's feet instead of demanding that these "poets" ease up on the glorification of strippers and porn.

But, whatever, I'm an adult and don't patronize the fools with misogynistic lyrics but for young kids it's hard to avoid if you listen to the radio or watch MTV or BET. So ultimately these media outlets are the ones that will have to bring a halt to this ridiculous content. But on the flip side it all smacks of censorship and I have to ask where does it end?

BTW, Did ya'll see our fellow orger and Prince fan getting in Russell's ass??? That's my girl!
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Reply #11 posted 04/17/07 6:51pm

Ifsixwuz9

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Kacey725 said:

I was thinking about posting this in the political section, but it does concern Prince and it's DEFINITELY about music...(and I haven't been in here lately so forgive me if this has been posted already).

In the aftermath of the firing of Don Imus for calling the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos," many have turned their attention to the hip hop community for perpetuating the use of this language that is denegrating to women and videos that are even more so.

With relation to Prince, we can observe a few things:
1. Prince is not "hip hop," but he has dabbled with it here and there ("Jughead," anyone? lol ).
2. There was a time when Prince wrote songs with lyrics that might be questionable in the current debate, but Prince has famously walked away from those kinds of lyrics in recent years.
3. Regardless of our personal feelings about these kinds of lyrics and what we listen to, it's been my experience that most Prince fans take their "Scarlet Pussy" with their "Beautiful, Loved and Blessed." In other words, we embrace the phases and contradictions as a part of our love for Prince and his music.
4. (This is the best part...) Prince fans are known for being wonderfully diverse in terms of race, gender, sexual orientation and economic backgrounds.

Having said all of this, I was watching Oprah go after Russell Simmons this morning and using India Arie as an example of artists who avoid this kind of content and wondering how my fellow orgers feel about all of it.

Just remember as you post: Love 4 One Another!


I'm not sure how or why people keep relating Don Imus' comments about the Rutgers women's b-ball team to P on this board. Heck I don't see what Prince has to do with mainstream hip-hop at all. I'm just not not seeing the connection. Sorry.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.
-Miles Davis-
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Reply #12 posted 04/17/07 8:19pm

Kacey725

Ifsixwuz9 said:quote]

I'm not sure how or why people keep relating Don Imus' comments about the Rutgers women's b-ball team to P on this board. Heck I don't see what Prince has to do with mainstream hip-hop at all. I'm just not not seeing the connection. Sorry.[/quote]

Fair enough statement, Ifsixwas9. My personal response to it is that there is a connection worth discussing just because of the race issue. I TOTALLY agree with you...aside from some dabbling, Prince has NOTHING to do with mainstream hip-hop. About the closest he's come was the "Rave..." cd when Chuck D and Eve guested. But there IS a connection to us here on the boards because we are people who care enough about music to want to post in a chatroom about it all day long - not just listen to it. That being said, we see a level of quality in Prince's work (at least at some point in his career, if not from start to finish, depending on who you ask) that I'm wondering if some of us ALSO see in hip hop and/or mainstream rap.

Prince is not directly related to the Don Imus issue, but the conversation about lyrics and videos, if you're looking at things historically, might include artists like Prince as they relate to (and differ from) other artists. It was interesting to see Prince's lawyer, Londell, on Oprah today. He was certainly critical of "artists" who label executives are able to shape into a consumer-ready image. Prince fits in there, too, as an example of how NOT to get mired down in all of this. Fascinating stuff!

Keith/Kacey
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Reply #13 posted 04/17/07 8:27pm

skywalker

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londell mcmillan was the person who had the best commentary on the whole thing. If someone can fan his quote from the transcript or something that'd be great.....
"New Power slide...."
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Reply #14 posted 04/17/07 8:30pm

Efan

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But the debate isn't with hip hop, it's with some artists in the hip hop community. People are up in arms about rap lyrics that are degrading to women and how those degrading lyrics have become an overall theme. I think the debate on it is well-intentioned but misplaced and I agree with what Squirrelgrease said. But even so, there's nothing in Prince's work that mistreats women. You can take all the Darling Nikkis, Pussy Controls, and Scarlet Pussys and more, and they still don't add up to misogyny.
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Reply #15 posted 04/17/07 8:39pm

SCNDLS

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Efan said:

But even so, there's nothing in Prince's work that mistreats women. You can take all the Darling Nikkis, Pussy Controls, and Scarlet Pussys and more, and they still don't add up to misogyny.


As an informed and knowledgeable Prince fan it's easy for us to say that his music is not misogynistic which I agree, it is not. However, to an uninformed person with an agenda it is possible for them to say that Prince's ultra-explicit and sexual lyrics from back in the day were demeaning to women. Because Darling Nikki alone was enough to get Tipper Gore up in arms resulting in explicit lyric stickers still in use 20+ years later. So if you take a song like, Let's Pretend We're Married or Lady Cab Driver, out of the context of his whole body of work it can definitely be held up as an example of demeaning women by someone who wants to push their agenda whatever it may be.
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Reply #16 posted 04/17/07 8:50pm

Efan

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SCNDLS said:

Efan said:

But even so, there's nothing in Prince's work that mistreats women. You can take all the Darling Nikkis, Pussy Controls, and Scarlet Pussys and more, and they still don't add up to misogyny.


As an informed and knowledgeable Prince fan it's easy for us to say that his music is not misogynistic which I agree, it is not. However, to an uninformed person with an agenda it is possible for them to say that Prince's ultra-explicit and sexual lyrics from back in the day were demeaning to women. Because Darling Nikki alone was enough to get Tipper Gore up in arms resulting in explicit lyric stickers still in use 20+ years later. So if you take a song like, Let's Pretend We're Married or Lady Cab Driver, out of the context of his whole body of work it can definitely be held up as an example of demeaning women by someone who wants to push their agenda whatever it may be.


I know what you're saying, but Tipper Gore was upset that her young children could buy sexually explicit content like Darling Nikki and Sister. The labels didn't censor music; they were (a misguided) attempt to keep provocative content out of the hands of children--but no one was attempting to stop adults from buying it. Not that I agree with it, but it's different from the current debate (firing Imus for what he said and challenging hip hop artists who degrade women). I really don't think LPWM or LCD could be added to this debate at all. Yes, they're sexual and explicit, but they don't put women down as worthless objects. I don't think anyone is saying you can't view women (or men) as sex objects. If you did, you'd have to object to just about every song ever written. That's just my take on the whole thing.
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Reply #17 posted 04/18/07 7:34am

Ifsixwuz9

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Kacey725 said:

Ifsixwuz9 said:quote]

I'm not sure how or why people keep relating Don Imus' comments about the Rutgers women's b-ball team to P on this board. Heck I don't see what Prince has to do with mainstream hip-hop at all. I'm just not not seeing the connection. Sorry.

Kacey725 said:

Fair enough statement, Ifsixwas9. My personal response to it is that there is a connection worth discussing just because of the race issue. I TOTALLY agree with you...aside from some dabbling, Prince has NOTHING to do with mainstream hip-hop. About the closest he's come was the "Rave..." cd when Chuck D and Eve guested. But there IS a connection to us here on the boards because we are people who care enough about music to want to post in a chatroom about it all day long - not just listen to it. That being said, we see a level of quality in Prince's work (at least at some point in his career, if not from start to finish, depending on who you ask) that I'm wondering if some of us ALSO see in hip hop and/or mainstream rap.

Prince is not directly related to the Don Imus issue, but the conversation about lyrics and videos, if you're looking at things historically, might include artists like Prince as they relate to (and differ from) other artists. It was interesting to see Prince's lawyer, Londell, on Oprah today. He was certainly critical of "artists" who label executives are able to shape into a consumer-ready image. Prince fits in there, too, as an example of how NOT to get mired down in all of this. Fascinating stuff!

Keith/Kacey


Still not seeing what Imus' bigoted comments has to do with P as they relate to race or anything else. Imus is white, P is black. And I kind of have to agree somewhat with JonnyApplesauce's comments too. Imus makes unecessary comments about the Rutgers ladies, gets canned by his employer and people rush in to shift the blame to black men. What the hell?

Anyway carry on...
[Edited 4/18/07 7:36am]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.
-Miles Davis-
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Reply #18 posted 04/18/07 7:48am

AvramsDad

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Reply #19 posted 04/18/07 9:22am

Kacey725

Ifsixwuz9 said:

Kacey725 said:

Ifsixwuz9 said:quote]

I'm not sure how or why people keep relating Don Imus' comments about the Rutgers women's b-ball team to P on this board. Heck I don't see what Prince has to do with mainstream hip-hop at all. I'm just not not seeing the connection. Sorry.

Kacey725 said:

Fair enough statement, Ifsixwas9. My personal response to it is that there is a connection worth discussing just because of the race issue. I TOTALLY agree with you...aside from some dabbling, Prince has NOTHING to do with mainstream hip-hop. About the closest he's come was the "Rave..." cd when Chuck D and Eve guested. But there IS a connection to us here on the boards because we are people who care enough about music to want to post in a chatroom about it all day long - not just listen to it. That being said, we see a level of quality in Prince's work (at least at some point in his career, if not from start to finish, depending on who you ask) that I'm wondering if some of us ALSO see in hip hop and/or mainstream rap.

Prince is not directly related to the Don Imus issue, but the conversation about lyrics and videos, if you're looking at things historically, might include artists like Prince as they relate to (and differ from) other artists. It was interesting to see Prince's lawyer, Londell, on Oprah today. He was certainly critical of "artists" who label executives are able to shape into a consumer-ready image. Prince fits in there, too, as an example of how NOT to get mired down in all of this. Fascinating stuff!

Keith/Kacey


Still not seeing what Imus' bigoted comments has to do with P as they relate to race or anything else. Imus is white, P is black. And I kind of have to agree somewhat with JonnyApplesauce's comments too. Imus makes unecessary comments about the Rutgers ladies, gets canned by his employer and people rush in to shift the blame to black men. What the hell?

Anyway carry on...
[Edited 4/18/07 7:36am]


To say that "people rush in to shift the blame to black men" is certainly understandable and undoubtedly a statement that can be backed with evidence, but it is also a sweeping generalization. It's a national epidemic and I guess if we are fans of Prince we don't have anything to do with it. Love to all of my fellow Prince fans, whatever your color!
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