Why are there so many Out-Of-Print Prince related albums during the Warner Brother days? Pure classics by P, the Time, Sheila E, Madhouse, Jill Jones and Paisley Park are unavailable through the label. This amazes and angers me. What kind of business decision was this? They must've been outselling a majority of the crap that the label still package and sell. And a lot of this happened prior to P's split with the label.

Anyone with a music business point of view who can answer this?

jdcxc said:

Most of them didn't sell well when they were new, let alone 20 years later. Plus, a lot of stuff was on the Paisley Park label and got canned when the label did.

jtfolden said:

Really, they are only "classics" to Prince fans - and very few of them sold well.

I've obtained LPs through my flea market contact. Excellent condition and some albums are in their original wrapper.

I have some of those albums and I must say it's a shame that Warner Brothers don't want to re-issue these albums. It's a shame that no agreement can happen for this to finally happen. It's overdue like the re-issue of those Prince albums. Hey, how about Warner Brothers giving up the ownership to the masters to Prince and let Prince release them again. What would happen then. It was on his label, so why not. Now, how many of u purple people would go get those albums?
[Edited 4/11/07 19:55pm]

If the first 2 Time albums are out-of-print, that's news to me. But Madhouse and Jill Jones became cut-outs after about a year or so of less-than-stellar sales.

Semi-substantial to complete Prince input OOPs and NOS:

Vanity 6 - S/T
The Family - S/T
Apollonia 6 - S/T
Eric Leeds - Times Squared, Things Left Unsaid
N.P.G - Goldnigga, Exodus, New Power Soul
Mavis Staples - The Voice, Time Waits For No One
V/A - 1-800-NEW-FUNK
V/A - Girl 6
Mayte - Child Of The Sun
Madhouse - 8, 16
The Time - Ice Cream Castles, Pandemonium
Jill Jones- S/T
Sheila E - S/T, The Glamorous Life, Romance 1600
Carmen Electra - S/T
Larry Graham - GCS 2000
Chaka Khan - Come 2 My House
Ingrid Chavez - May 19, 1992
Candy Dulfer - Sax-A-Go-Go
Andre Cymone - AC
Rosie Gaines - Closer Than Close
TC Ellis - True Confessions
Taja Sevelle - S/T
Louie Louie - Let's Get Started
Lois Lane - Precious
Mazarati - S/T
Brownmark - Good Feeling

I know what you mean.

I am having the hardest time getting my hands on a Jill Jones cd..

people on ebay go nuts for them!

Se7en said:

Some of the releases that are now out of print were gold and platinum in their initial run. If you looked at the cd's that WB churns out and you will find obscure releases that never sold anything. Go to a record store and look through the shelves. Why is Vanity 6 unavailable but some flutist that moved 10 copies have there album on the shelf?

jdcxc said:

word!

jdcxc said:

Very few of the albums were great sellers, and the few that did sell well didn't maintain that over a long run. If WB could make reasonable money off of Vanity 6 then it would still be in print.

loisclark88 said:

do they?

how much does it go for then?

oldpurple said:

Last one I saw up was going for around $50 when I looked at it...it still had a couple days to go though before it was up.

squirrelgrease said:

Would you add some of P's own albums to that list? The Gold Experience, The Black Album...

It would certainly be wise to make these available through iTunes -- there should be an "out of print" section that allows you a way to get digital copies of out-of-print albums. Wouldn't diminish the value of the circulating pressed copies and would let folks have access to the albums.

Won't happen until hell freezes over, I'm afraid.

Doozer said:

I actually believe we are closer to this happening than you think. The record companies would have minimal marketing and packaging costs. The only roadblock would be legal and copyright issues but there is enough money involved to make those issues go away in the future. The movie industry is experiencing the same issue with the pay-per-view catalogs.

What do the labels care about the "value of the circulating pressed copies"?

Doozer said:

Actually, iTunes already does this. They don't have a "category" because they only do it selectively.

I'm pretty sure they've done it recently for Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross.

Just because the albums are out of print doesn't mean they're unavailable or "lost" . . . it just means that the record label won't spend the money to produce more copies, especially if they think they won't sell.

There's no real "cost" in creating digital files for iTunes - so it's a win/win situation.


[Edited 4/12/07 14:56pm]

Se7en said:

Does this involve Prince and WB having a decent business relationship to happen or can WB release all the out-of-print albums without P's cooperation? Who owns the Paisley Park masters? I read somewhere that the Gold album was a one album deal where P owns the master and this is why it is currently out-of-print.

Was "Happy Feet" a WB release and a possible defrosting of the fight?

Currently, anything with the WB label on it is owned by them - including Gold.

That will change in 2013 when he starts receiving his albums back one-by-one. 2013 marks 35 years since "For You" - recent (last 10 years) court rulings have placed a 35-year limit on a company's claim to ownership of artistic material (this is of course unless the artist renegociates, which is not the case with Prince).

Any new project (be it remasters or digital downloads) must be agreed to by both parties.

Ultimate had joint input by WB/Prince, and so did Happy Feet, which might bode well for future remasters.

---
[Edited 4/12/07 15:54pm]

jdcxc said:

If I can recall, Warner Brothers Records owns the masters to the albums released on Paisley Park Records. From what I know, that is true about "The Gold Experience" album. It was a one album deal and Prince does own the master tape of that album. It's unknown if, Prince owns the master tape of "Chaos & Disorder" since it was released by The Artist and it was apart of that Prince deal with Warner Bros. It could be possible that Prince owns the master tape for that album as well. Oh yeah if I last heard, Prince owns the master tape to "Song Of The Heart".
[Edited 4/12/07 19:38pm]

Se7en said:

Thanks for the knowledge. Does the 35 year timeframe mark the point at which the music becomes part of the public domain. I always thought it was 50 years in Europe and later in the U.S. It will be interesting to watch the music business change before our very eyes over the next 25 years. The lawyers will not be able to keep up.

Se7en said:

This is true to some degree, Prince won't be able to reclaim total ownership of his master recordings starting in 2013 unless there is a new agreement regarding that. Prince in the past has tried to renegociate with Warner Bros. on this including the well known attempt in 1999 to by back his master recordings but Warner refused. During some interviews in 2004, Prince said that him and Warner Bros. have been trying to work this out concerning his masters but no further details was discussed. Several released Prince related projects have proven to be joint input by Warner Bros./Prince under new agreements including the release of the "20th Anniversary: Special Edition" of Purple Rain, Under The Cherry Moon, and Graffiti Bridge on dvd in 2004, the Diamonds and Pearls dvd in 2006 and Ultimate Prince in 2006. Ultimate is part of a "Prince deal" made sometime in 1994/95 surrounding Prince's contract with Warner. After 2 compilations since Prince's departure, Warner Bros. can no longer release a compilation (like a greatest hits) of Prince's work owned the label according to www.npgmusicclub.com (Prince's former website) back in the spring of 2006. During 1994/95, another deal was made between The Artist and Warner Bros. (seperate from the "Prince deals"), as a one album deal with Warner stating that The Artist will maintain ownership of the master recordings of that album which was The Gold Experience. This same deal could include ownership of Chaos & Disorder as well. Note: a big reason why some of this was able to happen is because Prince publishing deal with Time Warner was up in December of 1999, freeing his publishing Controversy Music and the name Prince. Prince was able to reclaim his name and (overall) those associated with it.
[Edited 4/12/07 20:43pm]
[Edited 4/12/07 20:43pm]

jdcxc said:

ownership of masters is totally different then copyright:

The length of the copyright term within the United States was extended by the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, which made the copyright term the life of the author plus 70 years for works created after January 1, 1978. In the case of a work of corporate authorship (also known as "Work for Hire") the term will be 95 years from the date of first publication or 120 years from the date of creation, whichever expires first. This legislation was challenged in court and affirmed by the US Supreme Court in the landmark copyright decision, Eldred v. Ashcroft (2003), in which the Supreme Court agreed that the length of the copyright term (ie, the period of time during which the copyright holder has a monopoly on its exploitation) could be extended by Congress after the original act of creation and beginning of the copyright term, as long as the extension itself was limited instead of perpetual. The duration of U.S. copyright for works created before 1978 is a complex matter; however, works published before 1923 are all in the public domain. In the US, after the death of a copyright holder, heirs inherit the copyright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

squirrelgrease said:

Ice Cream Castles is not OOP, I saw it 2 days ago at Circiut City.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Just because you see it somewhere does not mean they are making new ones.

sosgemini said:

Exactly - Prince will receive ownership of his masters starting in 2013. He'll get one back a year in the order they were released. He'll be free to remaster them at that point on his own. WB might still get a percentage though, depending on the initial contract.

So let the countdown began.

Hey you're right! Why does this happen? Some of my favorite recordings at that time that I want today on Cds, I can't have. Why, why, why, why! Maybe if enough people protest, petition, or write these record companies maybe they'll respond. I know for sure there are 6 albums I would love to have on Cd. The Time's Pandemonium, which I have on both cassette and record LP, but don't own on CD. That's the only Time album missing from my CD collection. Also, both Andre Cymone's albums especially the first one. A true classic with the songs "Living In the New Wave" and "Kelly's Eyes". Both Madhouse albums and Sheila E.'s Romance 1600. Most of Prince's stuff (except for Gold) you can find if you look hard enough. It's a shame these all time classics get shelved because people don't ask for them anymore or they just weren't big sellers. It's a crime and somebody needs to be arrested. That's my word. Peace and be wild!

LoDog said:

I share your frustration. I've been educated on copyrights and masters but I still do not understand why WB puts these albums out-of-print when there are numerous cd's on the shelves that reach a miniscule audience. The most popular jazz, classical or gospel cd sells a fraction of most of the P-related artists have sold. And by keeping them out there in the public consciousness they would've increased the likelihood of covers, movie soundtrack use, and other commercial/royalty considerations.

loisclark88 said:

most of them on ebay are bootlegs. there was a faq here i think that showed how to tell the real from the boots...but in a nut shell.. if it has extra tracks (remixed ect) or is a picture dics it is a bootleg...but then again they sould great. they are just not real.

jdcxc said:

Just exactly how much do you think most of the associated artists sold? How much do you think they sold 6-12 months after release, let alone 2 years? Most of them hardly sold anything... The Paisley Park label was essentially a graveyard for dud albums.

jtfolden said:

Jill Jones, Sheila E, the Time, the Family and Madhouse would still be selling albums today. What do you think some of WB's jazz and classical catalog albums sell? These albums would pay for themselves from Prince's fan base alone. Why do you think there is such an illegal bootleg market for these products- because of demand. WB was shortsighted and didn't consider P or output as "legacy" artists. For various reasons, I'm sure WB still prints albums that sell minimal amounts of cds by other artists.