Did WB not fulfill their side of the contract, or withhold royalties or bonuses?

I mean, plenty of artists have been ripped off by their record company, so was WB ripping Prince off?

Or was Prince simply sick of being under WB and, therefore, the "problem" was more him than WB.

His contract had to be fairly big and lucrative, right?

coltrane3 said:

NOT AGAIN!!

From my knowledge, they would not let him put out as much music as he wanted.
I think it was The Gold Experience that caused the problem.

A book could be written on this, but to sum it up as I see it...

While there were plenty of issues prior to the blow up between P and WB, the biggest issue came when they gave Prince a very lucritive contract, as they were doing with many of their artists who had been there for a while, like Madonna, REM etc. This was at a time when (probably the last time) record companies decided to invest into long standing acts with multi million contracts.

I believe it was because of the success of Diamonds and Pearls he was given this deal. Although it was a huge amount, it wasn't as large as Prince made it out to be. I think the terms were a bit strange, but much of it was based on sales of his albums. Meaning if his album sold well, he was given a hefty advance for the next one, and so forth until the contract ran out.

Well as you should know the next album did not sell nearly as well. Prince did not get the money he thought the contract owed him and blamed WB for not promoting his album to the hilt. Things severely broke down after that. And Prince did what he could to get out of that contract. WHile the contract was big and lucritive, much of it relied on P to deliver a solid and marketable album.

Not a good summary, I know. WB did not rip prince off. Prince didn't really understand the terms of the contract. The problem wasn't exactly with Prince either, ALthough he could have easily made it a lot easier on everyone by not throwing the fit he did and changing his name. I beleive at the time of the contract, he should have pared back and released an album every 2 years. But we know he's not like that and that he believes that whatever he is working on is simply the best and would sell with the right promotion.

superspaceboy's pretty much summed it up but...

1990
- Grafitti Bridge film flops and the album sells fairly modestly

1991
- WB want to either release nothing or a hits package, however, Prince delivers the tapes of D&P and they see the potential hit.
- D&P sells just short of 6million worldwide

1992
- WB offer to extend Prince's existing contract (I think it had a couple of albums to go) to six albums. Reputedly Prince would get an advance of $10million for each album but ONLY if the previous album had sold 5million copies or more (the new deal also included an extension to the Music Publishing deal with Warner Chappell until Dec 1999 plus the repositioning of Paisley Park Records as a joint venture with shared investment).
- Prince delivers the album which goes on to sell around 2.5million copies meaning that Prince did not receive his $10million advance for his next album
- Prince believes WB were not promoting sufficiently to make it a hit
- WB believe Prince is saturating the market with product not allowing them enough time to exploit the album to fullest potential

1993
- Prince offers the tapes for The Undertaker to WB for potential release but Warners refuse
- WB instead want to release a Hits package. Prince is against this at first and (reputedly) WB decide to actually PAY Prince to NOT be involved
- Prince begins announces he is changing his name and will no longer give WB any new material but will fulfill his contract with material from the Vault allowing him to concentrate on "multi-media projects". The first of these is the Glam Slam Ulysses project (using much of the music that would eventually form the Come album and some TGE tracks)

1994
- Prince somehow manages to pursuade WB to let him release TMBGITW independently (no WB involvement) under the name (rumour is the WB executives just wanted to get him off their back and thought it would fail). The single is a huge success including number 1 in the UK
- Prince tries to pursuade WB to release Come by Prince and TGE by simultaneously. WB refuse but do offer to release both albums with more time separating them
- Prince begins appearing with SLAVE written on his face
- Prince also has leaflets handed out through his NPG stores saying "TGE the new album by , release date, never!"

there's more but I will do that later...

Too many words!

Can someone summarise this thread please?

fathermcmeekle said:

Well you could learn to read or in summary...

Prince signed a contract offering him lots of cash if his last album sold lots. He also wanted to release lots more music. His album didn't sell so well so he didn't get lots of cash and WB wouldn't release albums more frequently. They stopped being friends!

jaypotton said:

I have always wondered how he managed to do that. Would WB really think TMBGITW would flop? Anyone could have heard that song was a major hit from the getgo. Or did he do it without permission and paid them off when they got angry seeing him making a lot of cash?

jaypotton said:

I think there also was something about ownership in there too.

Tremolina said:

I think the first time Prince or started mentioning "Masters" was around 94/95. Prior to that it had never been an issue. I think Prince realised that as WB could release a hits album without his involvement it might mean other things in the future. However, I think this was more about trying to find something to pin the blame on (as he would have sounded really like a spoilt rich pop star for publicly talking about WB not paying him enough blah blah).

However, WB only ever released the albums they were entitled to do under the contract (including VBOP - despite what Prince wanted us all to believe) and all they did was insist that Prince fulfill his contract. As for Ultimate, well that happened because Prince began talking with WB again and he had a few requirements for the release (such as not including tracks with swearing like Erotic City).

superspaceboy said:

I think that's a fair asessment.

Looking back, it was doomed from the start, but at the time, I suppose it seemed reasonable, well reasonable to rich crazy lawyers, rich crazy pop stars and rich crazy music exec's.

In reality, Prince isn't the kind of artist who can deliver those kind of sales consistently, because that kind of thing scares him I think (and rightly so). I mean we're talking MJ-level sales, and Prince isn't that kind of act, he wants to piss out a few million on Madhouse or The Family, y'know.

Both sides were being greedy I think that's all, it's neither's fault really. But they should really get over it all so we can have some nice remasters and stuff.

coltrane3 said:

HUH???? Oh Well yes WB ripped him big time but how they like him NOW!!!???? Rock out with your cock out.....FASHO!

What does TMBGITW stand for?

ychismb said:

The Most Beautiful Girl In The World

jaypotton said:

All that talk about "masters," "ownership," "artist's rights," was bullshit. Had the Symbol Album sold 5 million, Prince never would've batted an eyelash. That he went off on his crusade after the FIRST album under his new contract shows how unreasonable he is. Imagine if Shaq, after signing his $100 million deal with the Lakers, fails to win the championship his first year there, sulks, changes his name to Kareem Abdul the Slave, then goes about deliberately throwing games, phoning in entire seasons while waiting for his contract to expire--all the while explaining his actions as a fight for "player's rights."

It's mindblowingly ridiculous. Prince got shafted in the media and deservedly so.

padawan said:

Wow you gusy think it's that bad? Pheeewww... Prince would come across as a spoilt, rich, money whore indeed if he only made a stink out of the ownership issue because he wanted more money. As if all those millions were an unreasonable amount of money. But something tells me there is more to this story... Anybody got a different take on it?

jaypotton said:

No, Prince wanted to give it away for free but WB refused. Hence the "destroyed" discs that then were made playable again and were used as source for bootleg releases.

jaypotton said:

GH packaga was long in the works, but was delayed by Prince not respecting deadlines. In the end, WB paid Prince to not be involved.

jaypotton said:

Prince was NOT ALLOWED to use the WB infrastructure at all.

Also, the "three Vault albums" Prince was gonna deliver to WB were never gonna fly: his WB contract required Prince to deliver fresh material, not outtakes etc. In fact, the "three vault albums" were never configured at all.

Prince left WB after delivering two crappy, "will this do" throwaways: C&D and The Vault, which seem to be configured to just about fit some minimum definition of an album: 9 tracks each, slightly more than 40 minutes,...

See also:
http://groups.google.com/...50634d05cc

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[Edited 3/16/07 9:15am]

padawan said:

Exactly. While he was whining/lying about WB, he was screwing artists on PP Records/NPG Records all the time. Just ask Margie Cox what she was experiencing in the mid-1990s, ask her about her "CONtract".

Tremolina said:

I think what you've read here is a good summary of it all -- but I would also add that in the end it was WB doing their job (i.e. making a business out of releasing music and making each release as long-running of a success as possible) and Prince being an artist, believing that the music is the most important thing and never understanding the perception of "oversaturation." Kind of funny now that he's "free" and has essentially been releasing one major album about every 2 years since 2002, which is a little like what WB wanted to do when the whole mess started. In fact, when they wanted to do a "hits" compilation in the early 90s, if Prince had offered up a set similar to "One Nite Alone - Live" that was a mixture of some new live material and hits live in concert, they probably would have gone for it.

As a fan it's easy to side with the artist in cases like this, but in the end, Prince (or his attorneys) should have decided if the "deal" was good or not before signing it, thinking through the best-case scenarios (all incentives being met) AND the worst-case scenarios (incentives being missed due to missing sales goals). Don't sign anything you can't live with -- Prince did and then changed his mind.

Doozer said:

I don't know.... It sounds to me that no matter how bad his business sense may be said to be, Prince knows when he has a hit record and he is an artist in manipulating people too.

From what I've read so far the story to me sounds like Prince first seducing WB with Diamonds and Pearls. Prince knew beforehand it would sell very well and give WB renewed confidence in his selling potential after the flopped Graffiti Bridge project. And what do you know... They offer him one of the most lucrative contracts at the time.

Only one problem, he needs to keep on selling big to rake in the big millions and he doesn't. Once he realises he won't sell 5 million copies and gross 10 million a year when he releases an album every year, he changes his name and tries to speed it up by releasing as many albums as quickly as possible, thereby trying to get out of his deal asap. One would wonder if that's the real reason why he complained that he couldnt release 4 records a year like JB used to do.

Because of the pressure he puts on WB to not release the Hits and not take a break with new material, but to release the Undertaker - for free by all means, and then quickly after that The Gold experience and Come as a double album, he gets into conflict with the WB management, who refuse and only release the Hits and Come, better, even pay him to stay out of it.

At that point in time Prince 'somehow' manages to release TMBGITW independedly, probably making him big bucks too and seduce WB AGAIN with new fresh hit material. WB obviously decides TGE with TMBGITW and other hits on it will sell and after a long bickering releases it, getting Prince closer to fulfilling his contract and still making him the money.

Then Prince (or WB?) pulls out another trick and agrees to release the Black Album as part of the contract (and the Girl6 soundtrack), as I have understood it. Obviously Prince's expressed wishes not to be remembered by such a 'negative' album and asking his fans not to buy it were not genuine. As long as he gets paid and it helps him to get 'free', he is fine with releasing it.

In 1996 - only 4 years after the infamous deal was signed - WB agrees that the mediocre The Vault and Chaos & Disorder will suffice in fulfulling his multi million, long term contract and Prince releases Emancipation with the help of another major 'plantation owner' -- EMI, proving directly that the whole 'slave' thing he threw at WB was totally overblown.

Emancipation turns out to be a pretentious 3 disc set that is collecting dust in the back bin of every record store for 5$ ten years later, but probably did make him big bucks too. Only a year or so later he releases Crystal Ball independedly for 'only' 50 - 100 dollars on the internet to his hardcore fans and makes a total mess out of the distribution. But again - he is making big bucks, this time straight off his fans.

After that, with some exceptions, he releases record after record copying the R&B sound of the day, owning the rights of the recordings and making perhabs 50% of the very decent profits, while the majors promote him and he releases less than he used to, proving he always very well understood the concept of 'saturating the market'.

And the 'battle' against 'the industry'? That is no more, since Universal is his new 'business partner'.
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[Edited 3/16/07 11:16am]

But I don't want to judge

I have just summarised what I have understood so far.

I have heard stories before that he was screwed in this deal by WB; that they agreed as gentlemen on different terms than what was really put on paper. I have also heard stories that there were more problems involved, like a change in management at WB, racism and problems with the exploitation of pasiley park records and the artists that were under contract there.
Strange that I don't hear about those now.

I have to say/add that I think there may be a lot wrong about this paragraph that I wrote:


Anybody knows more?

Tremolina said:

Nobody knows more about he managed this either?

Doozer said:

Prince was advised NOT to take the deal at the time, even by his business admins, because they saw right through it and pointed out that it was only a good deal if Prince was willing to do the same works as he'd done on D&P, and D&P took an incredible effort to make it sell decent numbers. But Prince saw money plus hype ("biggest deal ever" at the time) and thus he signed on the dotted line.

Tremolina said:

For crying out loud, TU was gonna be a freebie with a guitar mag. It was NEVER gonna count towards his deal. Ditto for compilations. Ditto for old material, which WB would consider compilations, knowing fully well Prince wasn't gonna promote it.

Tremolina said:

WB didn't want it, research showed radio wouldn't play it. Prince negociated a deal to release it 100% independently, a one-off, and was forbidden from using WB's channels. TMBGITW became a hit through a massive pr campaign, and through shady deals where massive amounts of singles were bought by cronies, to ensure chart success. Once it charted, radio couldn't avoid it and it became a hit. Prince then started believing his own hype, and wtarted milking the situation by wanting to release a remix-ep, which of course went pear-shaped (Euro-release was put on hold because US manufatturers couldn't produce the complicated inlay in decent time). Then it was on to the 1800-new-funk compil etcetera, and quite frankly WB could have sued Prince for breach of contract numerous times.

Tremolina said:

READ my post, it's all there. Sheesh.

As for Prince making big bucks off of record releases: don't believe the hype. The ridiculous advance for Rave perhaps, but you can't earn money from a record that doesn't sell. Don't forget that PP wastes tons of money on vanity crap like videos that will never be released.

IMHO Prince makes far from money from the royalties from his 1980s hits than from his post-1995 releases. Making money from records was never a big sourc eof income for artists, and since p2p etc it has virtually vanished. High-priced concerts is where the money is, and hoping a song you wrote is on a big-selling record or becomes a hit througha cover etc.

There's an artist out there who never made any money until one of his songs ended up on the soundtrack to The Bodyguard, and simply because that album sold so much he earned lotsa dough.

Or look at guy in Take That who co-wrote a bunch of the songs: he earned money while his former band members were getting poorer by the minute.

Actually I was of the impression there was more to it than just problems with "Prince" releases. Warner's did go out of its' way to sabotage non-Prince/Paisley Park releases.

I remember very clearly a conversation I had with a WEA rep back in '89. He said he was plainly told by higher ups not to promote the Vermillion album by Three O'Clock. He also put next to no energy into pushing Miss Thang. While Prince may have liked the "published" numbers and likely could have gone about things with "more open eyes", Warners worked him good. They seemed to have actively sabotaged Paisley Park Records.

Now for those of you who might be inclined to say, "Well that's your opinion.", look at it this way. How come music he wrote for other artists on other labels (Bangles, Elisa Fiorillo, Martika....etc.) sold better than songs for artists under the Paisley Park umbrella? Do you actually think that the quality of work was lesser when songs were kept in the "immediate family"? Doesn't sound realistic to me. Something smelled really bad about that whole situation.

The MAIN problem with Prince dealing with any major record label is simply a control issue. Prince is an artist that doesn't like any "suit" telling him what he can and can't do. As soon as he got his following he was confident enough to begin to push buttons to get his way. In the end because he is such a legend and visionary he was able to break from Warner Brothere and still sell his music without having to answer to anyone. Prince is also an artist that is known for his live shows and that doesn't hurt. Now looking back on it I think it was a shrewd move on his part to hone his craft as a live musician because truth be told there really isn't any money in record sales for an artist signed to a major distribution deal. I know many many signed artists and they all get their bread from either publishing or touring. Anyway of all the reasons that Warner and Prince bumped heads, they can all be traced back to one single issue CONTROL.
[Edited 3/17/07 8:44am]

Well that's one way to win an argument...ignore it entirely.

savvy said:

It's the Bart way...