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Printablemetalorange said: Genesia said: It's just too bad that he couldn't make his point (which I think is a totally valid one) without trivializing the centuries of persecution endured by another group.
I don't think he's trivialising the persecution of another group, merely comparing the two, the persecution of Jews versus the persecution of Africans via slavery, to show how much the issue of slavery has in fact been trivialised. I can kind of see where he's coming from. The Jewish community has had property and money returned for what happened during the holocaust, and many memorials. By comparison, you might argue that slavery has been much pushed under the carpet. I remember seeing a documentary about whether there should be some recompensation for the ancestors of slaves from the companies and rich families that grew rich off plantations, etc. and are still around. It was meant to prove a point about how that part of history has been neatly underlined and written off without even much of an apology. Metalorange: Speaking as an African-American, I see your point. The sad thing is there are some in the population, not all, (because I won't generalize), that seem to think an apology is not deserving or try to play it down like African-Americans just should let it go. It's good we remember regardless of the horrors of what our ancestors went through. so that their descendants can make sure it doesn't happen again. Some non-African-Americans like the Jews, Italians, Latins, etc., over time and even today, have shortened their names or changed it when they came to this country, but they still have a history and pretty much knew and know where they came from.. But...Africans and African-American slaves born in this country during slavery, were forced to take the names of the so-called Masters that owned them, (I say "so-called" Masters because, there's only One True Master)without knowing much of anything about their history, other than the stories they heard from the surviving African Slaves and surviving African-American Slaves, about where the Africans originated. Families divided forever unable to trace. Not to mention the existence of bi-racial children of the men who raped their mothers.. Then you had the situation of the lighter-skinned slaves being favored ("favoritism") and living in the so-called Master's house, as house negroes and the darker-skinned being the field negroes -- which in turn - caused animosity and division between the two and at the same time, both groups were still "Slaves"<-- Now for anyone to say that the effects of slavery still does not affect the African-American race really needs to get out of the cloud of denial because this whole light-skinned, dark-skinned crap is still going on as a result of slavery, and that is not the only situation that affects our race. Let's talk about old "Mr. Lincoln"... Lincoln claimed he freed the slaves by signing a document one day, and said "okay, you're free now git on back to Africa" ...yeah sure, no cash, no shelter, no food, no original languages, no education, no property, no identity, family divided all over America, pride, dignity and history--robbed. They certainly couldn't "go back to Africa" because the people in Africa wouldn't recognize them nor claim them..especially the African American Slaves that were born and lived under the American culture. awhich would later become their adopted culture, and ironically the only identity they had, sadly, was the name of the so-called Master that beat and enslaved them. The pure blood Africans may have had some memory of Africa left in them, but how were they going to go back and how did they really expect them to find their family if that was all possible? At least before they were brought into this country they had a name, a home, a family, pride, dignity, but not the African-American slaves born into the American culture at that time, because they were robbed of it. ... and we should be proud of Mr. Lincoln? This is why when he so-called freed the slaves, a lot of them stayed...where were they going to go? Most were born right on the so-called Master's plantation ....(why do I suddenly get a picture of the hurricane Katrina situation? But that's another shameful story) No one should be enslaved in the first place. We were born out of our Mother's womb as free human beings, not to be enslaved by anyone....and then people wonder why African-Americans can't forget what happened to our ancestors and just suppose to move on....we have moved on, but can never forget, How could we when we are still carrying, waking up and going to sleep with the names of those so-called "Masters" everyday, including the names of the so-called Masters that raped our ancestral African/African-American women and beat and humiliated our African/African-Anerican Men.. Some say "so...you can change your names"... but guess what? Unfortunately, those names are actually the only way most African-Americans can actually trace some information about their free and enslaved African-American ancestors, if not by dna tests, so why confuse them even more? It's a catch-22 situation unfortunately, because even if we change our name it still does not give us back our history or true "Family Name, but in reference to the cd's title..."Rainbow Children"....yes we are. It was nice chatting with you all on this topic..... Peace! [Edited 3/14/07 9:10am] | |
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oops..double post...  [Edited 3/13/07 17:44pm] | |
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2elijah said: Here's the lyrics to Prince's song "FAMILY NAME"
"Welcome. U have just accessed the Akashic Records Genetic Information Division. This program is required 4 those wishing 2 obtain a marriage blessing from The Kingdom. When u wish 2 begin this program, Please select the race history u desire. U have selected African-American. This is your history: First of all, the term black and white is a fallacy. It simply is another way of saying this or that. Let's examine the term this or that in its ultimate form which is: this means the truth or that which is resistant 2 it. When a minority realizes its similarities on a higher level- not just black- but PEOPLE OF COLOR, and higher still INDIGENOUS, and even higher still, FROM THE TRIBE OF., and yet higher- the RAINBOW CHILDREN. When this understanding comes, the so-called minority becomes a majority in the wink of an eye. This action will cause a Reaction or Resistance. The source of this Resistance must b banished as it is in direct conflict with the initial action. It cannot be assimilated, 4 its very nature is resistance. In other words, ONE CANNOT SERVE 2 MASTERS. U r either this or that which is not this. End of part one. 2 continue, select the program Family Name and type in the current government name u wish history on. (London, England sometime in the early 1600s) We have the God-given right 2 run out of our colonies anyone who does not bow down 2 our law. Hear, hear? Come on, come on keep it moving here. What's your name boy? Abu Cah, Well it ain't now; it's Tom Lynch. Mirror, mirror what u see? Have I still got those dark clouds over me? Or am I really feeling what I feel?The last days of the Devil's Deal Mirror, what u see? Devil, devil what u know?/U been here since 1914, but now u got 2 go U been hidin' behind corporate eyes U wanna war, but u can't fight/Devil, u got 2 go U might say, what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family Name Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Rosenbloom/I'll b John Blackwell just the same What's ur Family Name? Teacher, teacher what u say?/Did we really come over in a boat? Did it really go down that way?/Or did I arrive b4 and ruin Thanksgiving Day? Teacher, what u say? Preacher, preacher is it true?/That Jesus wants me 2 give my money 2 the likes of u? Ride around in ur Lexus Coupe/Drive us 2 the cleaners in a pinstripe suit Preacher, that ain't truth! U might say, what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family Name Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Pearlman/U can call me Clay. can I play? People, people what's ur name?/Maybe we should start all over Let everybody get in the game/Put up a one-gloved fist Make a sound, Violet Brown U might say what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family name Pleased 2 meet u Mr. Goldstruck. We found this tape in the Akashic records. This is Thomas Jefferson: My fellow Americans, if there is a just God, we're gonna pay 4 this! Black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics will b able 2 join hands in the words of the old Negro spiritual: free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!" [ [Edited 3/12/07 10:55am] place ur right hand on the scanner and tightly clench up ur buttcheeks as u might feel a slight electrical shock. Is this the real song does it really say that?  surviving on the thought of loving you, it's just like the water
I ain't felt this way in years... | |
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KidaDynamite said: 2elijah said: Here's the lyrics to Prince's song "FAMILY NAME"
"Welcome. U have just accessed the Akashic Records Genetic Information Division. This program is required 4 those wishing 2 obtain a marriage blessing from The Kingdom. When u wish 2 begin this program, Please select the race history u desire. U have selected African-American. This is your history: First of all, the term black and white is a fallacy. It simply is another way of saying this or that. Let's examine the term this or that in its ultimate form which is: this means the truth or that which is resistant 2 it. When a minority realizes its similarities on a higher level- not just black- but PEOPLE OF COLOR, and higher still INDIGENOUS, and even higher still, FROM THE TRIBE OF., and yet higher- the RAINBOW CHILDREN. When this understanding comes, the so-called minority becomes a majority in the wink of an eye. This action will cause a Reaction or Resistance. The source of this Resistance must b banished as it is in direct conflict with the initial action. It cannot be assimilated, 4 its very nature is resistance. In other words, ONE CANNOT SERVE 2 MASTERS. U r either this or that which is not this. End of part one. 2 continue, select the program Family Name and type in the current government name u wish history on. (London, England sometime in the early 1600s) We have the God-given right 2 run out of our colonies anyone who does not bow down 2 our law. Hear, hear? Come on, come on keep it moving here. What's your name boy? Abu Cah, Well it ain't now; it's Tom Lynch. Mirror, mirror what u see? Have I still got those dark clouds over me? Or am I really feeling what I feel?The last days of the Devil's Deal Mirror, what u see? Devil, devil what u know?/U been here since 1914, but now u got 2 go U been hidin' behind corporate eyes U wanna war, but u can't fight/Devil, u got 2 go U might say, what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family Name Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Rosenbloom/I'll b John Blackwell just the same What's ur Family Name? Teacher, teacher what u say?/Did we really come over in a boat? Did it really go down that way?/Or did I arrive b4 and ruin Thanksgiving Day? Teacher, what u say? Preacher, preacher is it true?/That Jesus wants me 2 give my money 2 the likes of u? Ride around in ur Lexus Coupe/Drive us 2 the cleaners in a pinstripe suit Preacher, that ain't truth! U might say, what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family Name Pleased 2 meet u, Mr. Pearlman/U can call me Clay. can I play? People, people what's ur name?/Maybe we should start all over Let everybody get in the game/Put up a one-gloved fist Make a sound, Violet Brown U might say what u mad about?/But u still got ur Family name Pleased 2 meet u Mr. Goldstruck. We found this tape in the Akashic records. This is Thomas Jefferson: My fellow Americans, if there is a just God, we're gonna pay 4 this! Black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics will b able 2 join hands in the words of the old Negro spiritual: free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last!" [ [Edited 3/12/07 10:55am] place ur right hand on the scanner and tightly clench up ur buttcheeks as u might feel a slight electrical shock. Is this the real song does it really say that? Yes, pretty much.. [Edited 3/13/07 21:22pm] | |
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2elijah said: metalorange said: I don't think he's trivialising the persecution of another group, merely comparing the two, the persecution of Jews versus the persecution of Africans via slavery, to show how much the issue of slavery has in fact been trivialised. I can kind of see where he's coming from. The Jewish community has had property and money returned for what happened during the holocaust, and many memorials. By comparison, you might argue that slavery has been much pushed under the carpet. I remember seeing a documentary about whether there should be some recompensation for the ancestors of slaves from the companies and rich families that grew rich off plantations, etc. and are still around. It was meant to prove a point about how that part of history has been neatly underlined and written off without even much of an apology. Metalorange: Speaking as an African-American, I see your point. The sad thing is there are some in the population, not all, because I won't generalize, that don't seem to think an apology is deserving or try to play it down like African-Americans should let it go. It's good we remember regardless of the horrors of what our ancestors went through so that their descendants can make sure it doesn't happen again. Some non-African-Americans like the Jews, Italians, Latins, etc., over time and even today, have shortened their names or changed it when they came to this country, but they still have a history and pretty much knew and know where they came from.. But...Africans and African-American slaves born in this country during slavery, were forced to take the names of the so-called Masters that owned them,without knowing much of anything about their history other than the stories they heard from the surviving African Slaves about where the Africans originated. Families divided forever unable to trace. Not to mention the existence of bi-racial children of the men who raped their mothers.. Then you had the situation of the lighter-skinned slaves being favored ("favoritism") and living in the Master's house, as house negroes and the darker-skinned being the field negroes -- which in turn - caused animosity and division between the two and at the same time, both groups were still "Slaves"<-- Now for anyone to say that the effects of slavery still does not affect the African-American race really needs to get out of the cloud of denial because this whole light-skinned, dark-skinned crap is still going on as a result of that, and that is not the only situation that affects our race. Let's talk about old "Mr. Lincoln"... Lincoln claimed he freed the slaves by signing a document one day, and said "okay, you're free now git back to Africa" ...yeah sure, no cash, no shelter, no food, no original languages, no education, no property, no identity, family divided all over America, history--robbed. They certainly couldn't "go back to Africa" because the people in Africa wouldn't recognize them nor claim them..especially the African American Slaves that lived under the American culture. and the only identity they had, sadly, was the name of the so-called Master that beat and enslaved them. The pure blood Africans may have had some memory of Africa left in them, but how were they going to go back and how did they really expect them to find their family if they did? At least before they were brought into this country they had a name, a home, a family, pride, dignity, but not the African-American slaves born into the American culture at that time, because they were robbed of it. ... and we should be proud of Mr. Lincoln? This is why when he so-called freed the slaves, a lot of them stayed...where were they going to go? Most were born right on the Master's plantation ....(why do I suddenly get a picture of the hurricane Katrina situation? But that's another shameful story) No one should be enslaved in the first place. We were born out of our Mother's womb as free human beings, not to be enslaved by anyone....and then people wonder why African-Americans can't forget what happened to our ancestors and just suppose to move on....we have moved on, but can never forget, how could we when we are still carrying, waking up and going to sleep with the names of those "Masters." everyday.. Some say "so...you can change it"... but guess what? That is the only way most African-Americans can actually trace some information about their free and enslaved African-American ancestors, so why confuse them even more? It's a catch-22 situation unfortunately, because even if we change our name it still does not give us back our history or true "Family Name." It was nice chatting with y'all..... Peace! [Edited 3/13/07 19:08pm] I agree that this is a great song on an excellent CD which tackles some powerful and obviously charged subject matter. This is the stuff that in many ways represents music at its best to me and I'm so glad Prince did it. As for the question, 2elijah sums it up best and pennylover and metalorange make great points, too. Also, I wonder about the "white jailbait'' part of the lyric. I always thought that refers to the fact that England opened up the jails to populate much of America with in the country's early days. Also, I have to mention the Rev. Al Sharpton and his recent discovery of how he got his "family'' name - his ancestors were sold into slavery to pay a debt, like objects. Sharpton's full name comes from the man who owned his great grandfather! How would you like that as a lifelong memento! (You could say it's psychologically traumatizing existence on some level). And worst of the worst is that he, like most African Americans, have no idea of what their true Family Name (African name) is. That's the essence of the song, I think, and it could be Sharpton's theme song. I wonder if he's heard it at all. Can someone check on that?  [Edited 3/13/07 20:29pm] | |
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Genesia said: But a lot Jews don't have their family names, either! Many of them changed them purposefully, so as not to invite the kind of persecution they faced in their homeland. Hell, a lot of Americans, in general, don't have their original family names. My last name is not our family's original name -- like a lot of our ancestors, our German name was misunderstood at Ellis Island (or wherever people came in) and no one had time for corrections. True, my family did not come in bondage. And I do not mean to lessen the collective shame that is slavery in any way. My only point is that the family name may not be the best metaphor for losing it all. Because a lot of us -- of all races and ethnicities -- lost our original family names in one way or another. I think there is obviously a big difference between choosing to 'Americanise' your name so people don't think you're German and having a, usually insultingly negative, name forced on you as you arrive in the country to be a slave. I think it makes complete sense for Prince to have chosen Jewish names to compare with slave names to ram home his point, I mean, what other names are you going to compare them with that have anything like the same amount of comparable history or persecution? It has certainly made us all think about the subject whether we agree or not. | |
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metalorange said: Genesia said: But a lot Jews don't have their family names, either! Many of them changed them purposefully, so as not to invite the kind of persecution they faced in their homeland. Hell, a lot of Americans, in general, don't have their original family names. My last name is not our family's original name -- like a lot of our ancestors, our German name was misunderstood at Ellis Island (or wherever people came in) and no one had time for corrections. True, my family did not come in bondage. And I do not mean to lessen the collective shame that is slavery in any way. My only point is that the family name may not be the best metaphor for losing it all. Because a lot of us -- of all races and ethnicities -- lost our original family names in one way or another. I think there is obviously a big difference between choosing to 'Americanise' your name so people don't think you're German and having a, usually insultingly negative, name forced on you as you arrive in the country to be a slave. I think it makes complete sense for Prince to have chosen Jewish names to compare with slave names to ram home his point, I mean, what other names are you going to compare them with that have anything like the same amount of comparable history or persecution? It has certainly made us all think about the subject whether we agree or not. Yes, co-sign. It's definitely a valid way to bring home the point. | |
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