I know, Prince had his deals with frilly clothes, lots of make up and polished production before, but in the past both his music and appearance seemed to have a daring 'edge' that i dont really see nowadays.

I mean, musicology and 3121 arent bad records, the songwriting is good in general, and they are quite albums pleasant to listen to, but it seems like he is aiming at playing 'safe', polishing his message, trying very hard not to offend the listeners with weird sound experiments or provoking lyrics.

Next to that you have him going to Vegas, releasing press pictures (like the one on his site 3121.com) that 'scream': hey, i am a slick, sophisticated, smooth, hip person. Supporting very 'safe', rather bland R&B artists. It is if with him becoming a JW and calculated musician at the same time, he has left all the weirdness, danger, excitement behind him.

Funny to say now, but in retrospect, despite dumb actions (writing 'slave' on his cheek, going underground with the NPG music club), bad haircuts (during most of the nineties) and releasing terrible records (New Power Soul, Rave, the Rainbow children) in the second halve of the nineties, he did show some 'edge' and stubborness during that period.

Nowadays Prince even seems to have lost that personal edge (wether you label that in a positive or negative way). I mean, the 3121-Prince seems so far away removed from the ambitious cross-over artist (Dirty Mind - Purple Rain), the postmodern, creative genious (Around the world in a day - Lovesexy), and even the 'slave' who fought his own record company (but was actually fighting his own inner demons, talking about depth here...).

What i see is an artist playing it all safe, going for superficiality in every way, bling-bling, polished, plastic. I dont see no depth, no edge. Like he is faking, not really in touch with his feelings and muse. I really hope he recovers quickly from this period, and delivers us and himselve something that does justice to what he really is.

I think he's fraying at the edges myself.

That's what I see.

I hope you don't mind my asking -- but how old are you?

I ask because people tend to lose a lot of "edge" as they are weathered by time and life.

Only someone who's weathered a bit him- or herself can really appreciate that.

Genesia said:

I thought the exact thing, how old is that person! You hit the nail right on the proverbial head! I agree with you 100%!

Riverpoet, I ask you this with the upmost respect.

Why do you keep writing this post over and over?. i ask because it seems that you have a very difficult time accepting the fact that the 80's are GONE and that people change?

Genesia, i am 33.

I agree people loose 'edge' with age, but at the same time, in general when people get older they 'win' when it comes to maturity and depth.

Looking at other middle-ages musicians, i see this kind of maturing happening: i mean, look at t like Lou Reed, showing more emotions and tenderness on records like New York and Songs for drella, look at Van Morrison, getting more subtle and mild in his spiritual lyrics, look at Michael Stipe from REM, opening up lyricwise.

Its the thing i DON'T see when it comes to Prince. He doesnt seem to mature and show more depth while getting older, he seems to 'regress' instead, going back to the 'safe' persona of ladiesman and 'slick pimp'. Its like he is affraid or reluctant to really show himselve.

wonder505,

I post this because i think its a shame Prince is spoiling his talent for at least 15 years now. And he is not even spoiling his own talent, he is spoiling himselve, by indulging himselve soo long. I mean, he almost seems masochistic.. lol

I mean....you can respect Prince for underachieving badly during most of the nineties and the recent century, thats your choice. Personaly i see an artist wrestling way too long with the direction he should go (both personally and musically) and i just hope he gets back on track again....

back in the day

the rude boy might say,

'bite a piece of my purple rock'

some might laugh and others may

be offended

it is true there are some who were

drawn 2 a more daring and raw prince

however, time and experiences often mellows

one out but underneath the vegas glam

remains the man

I'm playing the waiting game as far as Prince's newfound conseravtivness is concerned. With all things, Prince gets bored very quickly and shifts gears. I am simply sitting and waiting for Prince to say to himself, "Aw screw it" and get on stage, scream a stream of obsenties, rip his clothes off and molest his guitar. (We know how he did that psuedo-mastabatory move with the neck of his guitar and don't forget he licked his guitar too!)

Most of us, if not all, will be on our feet cheering the little man! I know I will be.

You can't be nasty one minute and then just act like you aren't that. It's in you, in your blood and eventually Prince will get pricked and all that nastiness will ooze right back out!

Riverpoet31 said:

Wow -- I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't see any way in which a song like "The Word" could be considered less "deep" than...say..."Jack U Off." You want emotion? What about "The Dance" don't you get? That's as tormented as it gets. A man is losing his love (his marriage?) and dying over it. Contrast that with "I don't know you, I don't even care" as he tries to get with someone. Which Prince is the pimp?

What you (at 33) see as "safe," I (at 46) see as mature and thoughtful. If Prince came out now in his Rave lamé, Lovesexy polka dots, or Purple Rain ruffles, people would laugh him out of the room.

Since Prince was your age, he's survived a career crisis, two divorces, and the loss of a child -- and emerged as strong as he's ever been. (Record sales are not a sign of personal strength.) The man he is now is the man he was meant to be. We should all hope to "regress" the way he has.

Riverpoet31 said:

Discuss? Okay, see, supporting Black R & B musicians in Vegas is daring cuz the majority white record buying public dosent buy their records. After acquiring all of the societal accolades in his vocation beyond excellence, he still keeps it moving. Plus after 20 some odd years of indulging fantastic whims your brain cant comprehend to saturation, ya might find yourself needing something more. Wanna be bold? Try pouring your all into so called Black American music when you know the truth about the game. If we know one frigging single w/ Wendy and Lisa would swell his pockets over night, you think he dosent know it? Hes too funky for that.

Slick and polished? I just call him a class act.Still the greatest around!

The name change, the slave thing, all his 90s antics weren't "edgy." They were the ravings of an imbecile. It was a decade long tantrum from a pop star whose commercial instincts were in decline.

Prince has finally rehabilitated his sense of mainstream appeal and has rediscovered the will to engage a mass audience again. If he's learned anything one hopes he now realizes how precious and fleeting the moment in the spotlight is.

Furthermore, since having earned his precious freedom from his record label, he's got no one but himself to blame when his records tank. And his first few releases did. He needed the nostalgic goodwill generated by his Hall of Fame induction to launch his current comeback. If he has any perspective at all about the business--and honestly, the jury's out on this one--he will nurture this newfound popularity and not abandon it like he did post-Purple Rain.

Genesia said:

daayyuummm .. ..I can relate..

Genesia,

'Edgy' to me doesnt necessary mean ravisant clothes, huge stageprops or writing the word 'slave' on your cheek.

I first of all love Prince as a musician / songwriter, and from Purple Rain on Prince seemed to mature both musically (his music getting more nuances, layers) and lyrically (his lyrics getting more subtle, deeper on Sign of the Times).

Princes best moments for me when he succeeds in surprising me by weird, original soundscapes (In all my dreams, Mia Bocca, Crystal Ball), little experiments in his arrangements (leaving the bass out of When doves cry, the layered, intricated harmonies on Lovesexy, the stripped down bass and drum sounds on different songs on Sign), experimenting with the sound of instrumentation (the drumsound on Diamonds and Pearls, going for a more organic bandsound on The symbol album), and among others: the psychosexual lyricism of Camille, the replacing of horns with synths in his trademark sound, ambitious visions lyricwise (Uptown, Paisley Park, connecting the carnal and spiritual on Lovesexy).

When i look at and listen to musicology and 3121, some lyrics are actually a step back, being very general, showing no real personality, almost on the level of the 'Prince' album.
Tracks that are a bit more deep and experimental, like 'The Dance' for example, sound a bit labored, as if they were aimed to be those kind of songs, rather then a pure artistic expression.
The rigid, religious dogma's spread on The Rainbow Children are a step back from the more nuanced, playfull view on spirituality he expressed in earlier work.
The whole image he creates with the pictures in the CD-sleeves, playing at vegas, the press pictures, is that of a slick, conservative musician, when IMO that is not who he is at heart.

During the greater part of his career i have mostly seen Prince as a 'leftfield' artist, a musical innovator, a silly acting, hyperactive, walking contradiction sometimes, but beneath that a musician who's main concern it is to challenge himselve and his listeners constantly.

That key element is missing from the Prince of the 21th century so far. I dont mind him cutting down on the silly haircuts and the polka dots, but its a shame he cuts down on his sense of musical adventure and challenging, delivering music that isnt exactly 'bad', but often quite boring, conservative, shallow, missing personal depth.

As someone said before on this thread, Prince changes his mind a lot, and maybe this all will change.
I am not exactly hoping to see the nasty Prince back, i mean he is indeed almost 50 now, and he made my toe curls with lyrics like 'Hot with you' in the recent past. But, its time Prince took up his level of maturity and artistic that he reached with Parade, Sign of the Times, Lovesexy and even Batman, somewhere after that he seemed to have lost 'himselve', i just hope he finds himselve back quickly.

Jonny applesauce,

When it comes to him promoting R&B artists in Vegas, for me it isnt about them being black (or white, or asian, whatever), i am commenting on that, because the artists he isnt promoting arent exactly daring, original musicians, but mostly bland, conservative ones.

Alltough Prince hasnt been quite a 'king' in promoting artists in the past (i mean, apart from the Time, Sheila E, and Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, not many artist out of his network are really relevant today), i think he can do a better job then promoting bland Nu-soul acts
As i said in my post aimed at Generia, i see Prince in the first place as a musical innovator, a man who can cross-over all kind of genres, who is willing to be adventorous in his music. I would understand and apreciate it better if he was supporting acts that share those kind of characteristics, lets say new, young talents in the vein of groundbreaking artists like Living Colour, Bjork, Beck, Urban Dance Squad, Radiohead and Basement Jaxx.

sexxydancer said:

ya know, i must say...sexxydancer's posts have to be the classy way to disagreeing..someone asks a question and she answers it.

nuff said!!!

three cheers for sexxydancer.

i think you're battier then a bat but i give you props for not letting other folks opinion get to you.

Riverpoet33 no disrespect but you sound like a fool, for even comparing Prince with those other folks both in your mind and in type.

wlcm2thdwn said:

wait a minute..

1) lets not call people fools or even elude to it...we all have the freewill to have our own musical taste and should be respected for that.

2) i happen to think that bjork and radiohead (both acts who have been around for decades...bjork for almost as long as prince) have been much more groundbreaking and consistent then prince over the past decade...another person i would add to that list: Meshell.

and to answer the initial question: yes...prince's production and arrangments are a bit too "vegas" for me...sure, there are moments (ala The Dance & The Word) were prince is inspiring but its no were near the forward thinking mastery of folks like bjork and meshell.

Riverpoet31 said:

Hold up -- Hot Wit You?!

That ends the discussion for me.

1992, the 0(+> album

that's the slickest, most polished prince we've ever heard.

Or do you mean live performance? 'Slick and polished' is the exact same thought i had hearing the One Nite Alone CD for the first time.

Personally, when it's just P and a guitar, i don't care about much else....

sosgemini said:

Thanx....I think!

welcometothedawn, i disagree with you.

Alltough Prince has taken up different roles in the eyes of different people: the new Hendrix, the black artist to cross-over in the mainstream, the funkrocker, the modern R&B man etc.
In my opinion, looking at the majority of its work, in essence Prince is first and foremost a musical innovator, and adventorous artists trying to challenge himselve and his public.

When looking at the period Dirty Mind - Purple Rain, Prince reminds me a lot of Sly Stone and George Clinton, both black artists who were colourblind in their musical vision too, and wanted to explore both 'black' and 'white' styles, combining them in their own ways.
When you listen to Dirty Mind for example you can clear hear the influence of new wave artists around that time, Prince incorporated their influences, mixing them with funk and soul, and tried to create a style of his own with it.
On 1999 he even takes that a step further, he seems to have listened to artists like Africa Bambaata, The Talking Heads and Kraftwork by creating his own 'branch' of electrofunk.
Even Purple Rain, alltough more conventional in its compositions and arrangements, very much show his innovative side: the typical Linn-sound with the side-clap, the original, typical sound of his arrangements.

Looking at the period from Around the world in day unto Batman, Prince added more influences to his palette, and his music getting more layered and nuanced.
Using influences from the Beatles, Joni Mitchell, jazz-music, french chansons, blues, heavy rock, dance, hip-hop and world music to often create very inventive, original music. Creating the hard-electronic-beats-mixed-with-real-orrchestration sound with Clare Fisher, going for a both dark and humorous, raw kind of electrofunk with the Camille songs (and later: on the Black album and the Batman soundtrack).
The way he was using influences around that and creating his own styles to express himselve both musically and lyrically, is indeed way more related to how people like the Beatles, Frank Zappa, Bjork and Radiohead deal with their music, then lets say James Brown, Maxwell or Morris Day (people who stay inside their own 'niche' and try to change their sound within those borders, while Prince was going in a totally different direction: not limitating himselve to a certain style, not pinning himselve down within certain musical borders).

In the first halve of the nineties Prince was still looking for new things: he did try to incorporate hip-hop and house-influences on records like Diamonds and Pearls and Emancipation, often not with splendid effects, i guess it arent exactly his kind of musical styles.
He also tried to create a more band-like style with his records with the New Power Generation, large parts of those records are recorded live in the studio (at least, the basic tracks), so at least he was trying something new there.
In the last, 8 - 10 years, Prince has often released singles which were copying modern R&B, i agree, he has done this kind of material in the eighties from time to time, but his efforts in this terrority during the last 10 years are often very plastic sounding, safe, boring.
Not only did this kind of sound 'transfer' to the material in other styles on his recent records (i mean, listen to Automatic and The Word for example, or to The Cross and Fury) it possibly also gave the newer and younger fans of Prince, who did get to know him during the nineties, the wrong impression that Prince is in the first place an R&B singer.

Alltough live he still has the capability to 'shine', on record Prince, in the last 10 years (the jazz-rock rumblings of The Rainbow Children and News not included) has more and more moved from his role to musical innovator, to a kind of a safe follower, a new Maxwell or James Brown (in the last 20 years of his career).

And unfortunately because of that, People seem to forget more and more what Prince really did achieve during the period 1981 - 1989, 8 years of musical, creative growth, which can only be compared to the growth The Beatles went trough during their short career.
Unfortunately it was followed by a hit and miss period from 1990 - 1995 (good albums, some great tracks, but also some big mistakes, nonetheless, he still delivered quality in general) and finally he killed his career by going underground, delivering mediocre, uninspired records, becoming accepted again by the mainstream in the 21th century, but still not being what he should be, one of the biggest and inspiring musical innovators of all time.

Missquirrel, by slick and polished by the way i mean, sounding safe, bored, calculated, shallow, 'plastic' often. Music missing depth, vision, feeling and personality.

I agree that the O+> album sounds 'slick', but its slick in terms of the production, the music itselve is played with feeling by the members of the NPG, Prince is obviously aiming at a more band-orientated, live-sound with his music, in that sense its still not 'slick'

When i use the word 'slick' and 'polished' i refer to: the production of most songs on Emancipation, the entire New Power Soul record and most of Rave, the sound of his internetreleases on the NPG musicclub, songs like Life of the party, Incense and candles and The Word.

Well Genesia,

singing lyrics like 'Oh, i wanna get hot with you, get you underneath the cream and woooo' to the sound of some boring, uninspiring plastic R&B sounds more fitting for, lets say, Usher, instead of being a song from a 40+ yo man, who once was the biggest musical innovator of his time....

Riverpoet31 said:

I have no idea what you are trying to say...and it's pretty clear you didn't take my point, either. So let's just call it done, shall we?

Riverpoet31 said:

Have you seen any of the bands he had live? Do you buy their records? Mint Condition? Esthero? The Roots? Larry Graham? Maceo Parker? Boring and conservative? Kat Williams? lol

Riverpoet31 speaks the truth.

There's no way that Prince's music in the 90s can hold a candle to his 80s output. Imo the only way he ever gets the muse back is (1) to surround himself both personally and professionally with creative people such as Wendy and Lisa and Susannah (instead of Tony Mosely and Carmen Electra) and (2) to begin living a real life insread of being holed up in his house on the computer. He's been leading an insular life for over 15 years now. Music's Howard Hughes.

I don't want to offend anyone who's a JW but if he's playing safe, it's because of his newfound faith. Maybe I don't know prince personally but I don't think JW is the appropriate religion for him at all, too many restrictions and prince was never one to hold back.

In the 90's some fans were ashamed about his behaviour or looks.
Even in the 80's I sometimes had 2 defend my fav artist because he
looked strange.Damn,he even aborted some of his own hits by
putting sounds on them that people found disturbing!

Now,years later,everybody thinks he looks great,his music is more easy listening than,let's say Lovesexy,but once again we're not pleased.
I think his image is the right one 4 his age,I agree on a part that his music could be a bit more exciting.
Or is the production? Fury is a great song but it doesn't sound powerfull.