What's up with Russia cutting a deal with Iraq??And why isn't anyone supporting the U.S planned attack on Iraq??
Is the Whole World against us now???

theC said:

hhmmm... don't you think you may be believing Pentagon house war propaganda, which clearly says the USA doesn't need anyone, nor wants anyones help against Iraq, except maybe for the Brits... see:
http://story.news.yahoo.c...q_usa_dc_3





maybe it's because of this attitude.

Abrazo said:

theC
Hey abrazo i think you are confusing me with neps.I think the U.S should only attack if Iraq is a threat to US.They are not a threat to us so we should not attack(imo).An attack on Iraq to me is a personal problem between Bush and Hussein.I just wonder why Russia would work with Iraq when they know how the U.S feels about them.Is Russia sending the U.S a message?

Iraq is a threat. Within 5 years, I believe I read or heard, they'll have nuclear capabilities. It's time that bastard Sadaam died. Not to say another bastard like him won't take over.

True, the US sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong. But I'd rather get Sadaam now than have to contend with him when he actually CAN do something to us.

As for Russia, where'd you hear this Iraq/Russia thing at? Are you all anti-Russian now C? Are you trying to insult someone? Are you trying to send me a message?
[This message was edited Sun Aug 18 18:46:59 PDT 2002 by BattierBeMyDaddy]

BattierBeMyDaddy said:

theC
4 those that think i'm starting stuff,check out this article

Russia, Iraq to sign $40 billion pact
August 17, 2002 Posted: 8:59 AM EDT (1259 GMT)






MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- Russia and Iraq are preparing to sign a $40 billion economic co-operation plan, the Iraqi ambassador to Moscow said Saturday.

The pact was likely to strain Moscow's relations with Washington as the United States considers a military attack against Baghdad.

The five-year agreement envisions new co-operation in the fields of oil, irrigation, agriculture, railroads, other transportation sectors and electrical energy.

It will most likely be signed in Baghdad in the beginning of September, Ambassador Abbas Khalaf told The Associated Press.

The announcement came as Washington struggles to rally international support for a possible invasion of Iraq.

Washington is determined to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein -- possibly through a military operation -- because of the threat posed by his regime's efforts to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

Russia, a longtime ally of Iraq, has forcefully warned against a U.S. invasion.

Moscow has also has supported lifting United Nations sanctions imposed after Baghdad's 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Moscow hopes lifting sanctions would allow Baghdad to start paying off its $7 billion Soviet-era debt and help expand trade.

Khalaf emphasized that the new cooperation deal, which is to include new projects as well as the modernization of some Soviet-built infrastructure, would not violate the sanctions.

Russia's Foreign Ministry said Saturday it had no comment on the deal.

In the current standoff with the United States, Iraq is counting on Russia to use its leverage in the U.N. Security Council and other diplomatic channels to deprive Washington of international support for a military operation, Khalaf said.

"First of all we need moral, political and diplomatic support.

Because Iraq knows how to defend itself," Khalaf said. "The main thing for us is that American aggression does not go through the U.N. Security Council and that America does not receive a U.N. mandate," he said. "Let America act (alone) as an aggressor. It will be condemned from all sides."

Khalaf dismissed the idea that Russia could yield to U.S. pressure and drop its opposition to an invasion.

"There won't be any concessions," he said. "Iraq is Russia's most dependable partner in the East."

At the same time, Khalaf said he saw no contradiction between Russia's friendship with Iraq and its ties with Washington, which have strengthened since the September 11 attacks.

"We see friendship among various countries and civilised peoples of the world as a positive step. Any enmity brings harm to a country," he said.

The news of the deal with Iraq followed signs that Moscow is maintaining or even increasing its cooperation with Iran and North Korea. Along with Iraq, those two countries make up what President Bush has labeled the "axis of evil" because of their efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction.

Last month, Russia announced a 10-year plan for nuclear cooperation with Iran. Under the plan, Russia would build another five reactors in addition to the one currently under construction at Bushehr. Washington fears such cooperation could help Iran develop nuclear weapons.

This week, the Kremlin announced that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il will visit Russia later in August for the second summer in a row.

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Unless i own cnn,i am not responsible for the story.
[This message was edited Sun Aug 18 18:55:08 PDT 2002 by theC]

Curious.

Alex was just asking me the other day why Americans dislike Russians. He went into a big rant about it.

How'd it start...Trying to remember...

Oh, yes. He was telling me about Russia. Let me think..
"Russia - it is very good country, we like all peoples on the world, but some peoples don't like us...why? In Russian Federation all municipal services...light, gas... is almost charge-free, it is usual about 20-30 dollars, each has own house, summer residence..."

Anyhow, he then restated the, "Why don't some people like us" sort of thing...

He says, "Be not afraid Russians."

BattierBeMyDaddy said:

theC
It's called propganda.The Russians have always been the Big Bad Monster.With a big bad monster in the wings the government can pass laws that cut your freedom,privacy and your finacial income(thank you bin laden).Most american people never allow their minds to see anything but.Plus most americans rarely come into contact with a Russian so they keep their preconceived ideas about them.Unless the goverment is willing to do a PR move on Russia's behalf or a flood of Russians come INTO the U.S and change those opinions there is little hope of Russians ever getting a fair shake.I thought they were through with Russia and taking aim at their NEW MONSTER(the middle east).Then that story came in,go figure

I've not met all Russians, but I like Alex Hmm, but you're right C! I don't suppose I can add anything to that.

from what i hear, the former russian states are pretty much run by mafias these days. which makes life not too different from the way it was in the old USSR (which at least gave it a respectable veneer w/ propaganda of its own, at least to naive communist sympathizers).

this is what i've heard from russians living in america who've gone back to visit, anyway... they say anything worth buying is black market, and watch your belongings.

the party scene is supposed to be pretty wild, too.

BattierBeMyDaddy said:

Bush staff propaganda

We're all a victim of propaganda, no matter what you believe. It's unavoidable.

theC said:

well I think the following is what, more or less, is going on.

1)Russia has always had important trade and political relationships with Iraq, Iran, Libia and North Korea. It feels it doesn't needs US permission to work with the countries Bush has called part of the "axis of evil". It is maintaining and defending its mainly long term economical interests by cutting new deals with these countries.

2) Since the US is seeking more political and economical control in the Middle east, like they control Afghanistan and its natural resources right now, Russia is in that respect sending a political message that the US will have to watch out that they don't take their campaign too far and hurt Russian interests in other countries.

3) Russia needs and wants desperately to make money. The Russian economy completely collapsed after the fall of the communist system and still hasn't turned into a somewhat healthy market economy. The USA has done very little to help them to recover. Therefore the Russians don't feel like they owe the USA a lot, if anything. And since it is still trying to get on its feet, the Russian government is willing to do just about everything to bring more economic wealth to Russia. Not to mention the Russian oil lobby who of course also desperately wants a piece of the middle east oil reserves.


Americans, don't forget that Russia has the same interest in a 'war on terrorism' as the USA has, since the country has alsready been suffering for years from Islamic separatist terrorist actions and still is struggling with it. But it has knowledge and experience in fighting against it. The USA can learn from that.

So the USA wouldn't be smart not to involve them in the war against terrorism. Just as it wouldn't be smart not to work closely with France, which has many experience with e.g. Algerian fundamentalists. As Germany, who had it's own internal terrorist problems with the RAF (Rote Armee faction) and Britain with the IRA... and not to forget Spain with the ETA, the Basque separatist movement, who has been responsible for many hundreds of bombings and political assasinations over the last 30 years.

Neither is it smart to walk over the economical interest these countries have themselves in many Middle eastern countries, just like the USA has and wouldn't expect them to do.

When I saw the original post I thought "Damn..don't get abrazo started...sooo predictable!"

Nevertheless, I like these threads so my 2 cents:

1) NOONE should feel comfortable having Hussein around. Sure, he's MOSTLY mad at us, but he doesn't like Britain or any1 outside of his region that happens 2 b doing well.

And whenever he fucks up with his country, we r the scapegoat. Could it b...*gasp!*...that he's just not fit 2 b a leader of ANY country?

2) U.S. ain't seeking control of Afghanistan (as abrazo tried 2 say)...in fact, we did'nt want anything 2 do with Afghanistan b4 9/11...then we were thrown in2 the middle of their bullshit. The only time I heard the NAME of that country in everyday conversation was "Afghan rugs"...that's about it.

3) There r a lot of Russians where I live so 2 make generalized statements such as "Most Americans have never met a Russian" (-theC) is absurd. I've met them...the older ones r miserable and don't like it here (don't ask me y they r in a country they don't support) The younger ones have open minds and they like it here, altho' sometimes they miss their families and the traditions they had in Russia and sometimes people here can be assholes, like anywhere. But it's generally a good opinion they have of us, I think.

4) I can't believe the balls some American people have who talk on television. Like what abrazo quoted about Perle saying, "And the one of some importance, the United Kingdom, is, I believe, going to be with us," WTF?

Of SOME importance? Way 2 make people feel important. U BELIEVE? Now anytime u say something like that, u put another country in the uncomfortable position by presuming things. I say, if they want 2 b in it fine, good. It's the right thing 2 do...but 4 fuck's sake please don't go on t.v. and act like u know who ur friends r (even if u do). It just looks arrogant, 2 me.

Men don't know how 2 word things...we need a woman president or a woman SOMETHING.



[This message was edited Tue Aug 20 13:23:15 PDT 2002 by Nep2nes]

BattierBeMyDaddy said:

Idon't agree with you, it's not question to fall into paranoia , but we can diversify our "source d'information" & use our critic sense

Nep2nes said:

yeah & you are so unpredictable

Nep2nes said:

Don't worry nep... i haven't gotten started yet!!
You didn't expect that huh?

Don't you agree that your continuing biased and unfounded negative stance against me and my opinions is much more predicatble, when you still don't understand that i'm not anti-american?
I have tried to explain you this before, but you couldn't even find the thread where I explained and you posted on yourself. so how predictable is that for ya?

I'm not going to respond to the rest of the nonsense you spilled, since you really haven't got any knowledge about international relations and politics, besides that Saddam is an evil bastard. Well, I got some more news for you: he isn't the only one.

Abrazo said:

theC
Arguing with neps is like pissing in the wind.She will never learn anything because she KNOWS it all!!Save you breath Abrazo and let the eighteen years that neps has been on the planet give you all the wisdom of the you will ever need.And when you are successful(and the envy of your friends ) you can thank neps for that

Iraq and Saddam are threats to the United States because they are developing weapons of mass destruction that they would use against the United States. To a lesser degree, there are many other countries that are enemies for the same reason.

Whatever the politics of the situation or how moral/immoral the United States may be or have been previously...it is a FACT that these countries sponsor terrorism that could be aimed at us similar to 9/11. If attacking these countries prevents future attacks...then I'm for it.

It is possible that such attacks could also be minimized with a change in some of our foreign policies say towards Isreal or what not. Still, it's doubtful that this Muslim extremism will stop anytime soon regardless of our actions.

The US may have to go at it alone. Europe and other moderate Arab countries would probably be rooting for us on the DL but for political and economic reasons choose not to support us publicly. The Saudi government is not in a position to alienate other Muslim countries for many reasons (both political and economical)...but you can bet that they wouldn't mind seeing the US take out Saddam.

jnoel said:

hate to say it... but young french people like yourself pretty much believe anything and everything they hear in the press... you are no exception, jnoel. you talk exactly like all the kids i met at the fac de lettres here in montpellier. it's like you're an army of liberal robots.

regardless of the administration, the french press has a strong socialist/liberal agenda.

a common example: every time someone in the US gets executed, french TV only shows the anti-death penalty protesters. whereas on american TV, the camera will also pan over to the large crowd of people holding up signs that say "let him fry!" or whatever. it's a total denial of the support the death penalty still has in the US...

I consider your president Bush Jr. to be more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. At least more stupid. How can you people choose monkeys for presidents?

Yes, bomb Iraq once again and kill thousands of people like you did in the Gulf War and then when something as horrible as the 9/11 attacks happen again in your beloved country, you will ask yourselves again : why us, why do people hate us so much?

I was just talking about this song. It's sooo damn funny. I think Prince should've dusted it off at the celebration, or surprise us with it in the next...

oh...

wait...

that's not what we're talking about here is it...

hmmm... who knew?

garganta said:

theC
I agree,but some people don't see it that way.They think we should bomb because Bush says so.Nobody even wonders why the neighboring countries(like kuwait)say we shouldn't attack them.These people would face an immediate threat and they should know better what's going on.But hey we are the U.S.The protectors of the universe and we know what good for everybody else.And don't try to confuse this by saying George W is doing this for his daddy.Bush is a good man who won the election fair and square.The reality is he needs a trophy to show the U.S can bring back the man they are after(didn't work with saddam the first time and it doesn't seem to be working with bin laden).

garganta said:

OUCH! That's a powerful post!

garganta said:

Something as horrible as 9/11 will probably happen again anyway...so why not bomb Iraq? We would be doing the Iraqi people a favor. The US is the most powerful country in the world...we would be hated no matter what our policies were.

theC said:

Kuwait would LOVE for the US to invade Iraq...they just cannot publicly say so because of political and economic pressures from the Muslim World. Why would they want Saddam in power after he tried invading them? The same can be said for Saudi Arabia and even other European countries. Once the US leads, others will follow.

MightBQueen said:

MightBQueen , you don't know me so I will just tell you that I can't stand those pompous ("liberals / de gauche) kind of students who give lessons for free to the rest of the world, & I don't have any complex of superiority, I wouldn't wasting my time on line "criticizing" people/ a country that I don't like. I can not translate it properly in english: "de la discussion jaillit la lumière"

"socialist/liberal agenda" here those 2 words have a different meaning that in your country (& I'm not socialist, communist either)

divo02 said:

theC

Yeah why not,we'll probably only kill a few thousand innocent people.What the hell let's just nuke em and never worry about the region again.Then WE can have the WORLD to ourselves because WE deserve it.

theC said:

So maybe we should put you in charge then the C. I can see it now...you'd respond to terror attacks by doing nothing. That would probably work!!! We should recommend that to Isreal.

You forget that the US tried to be isolationist before and got dragged into wars. I think it's better to be pro-active rather than reactionary.

We don't want the world to ourselves the C...but if you fuck with us you can guarantee we will address the issues at any cost necessary.

divo02 said:

theC
I don't think i could do any worse.I agree if someone messes with us(cut the chicken's head off).But this war with Iraq is between Bush and Saddam.The world is telling us to back off.We reason that response with they say that but THIS is what they really mean.It's like the girl who tells the guy no and he figures she REALLY means yes.But then again we KNOW what's best for the rest of the world.And what has Iraq done to us lately???
[This message was edited Wed Aug 21 19:15:10 PDT 2002 by theC]

I don't think the world is telling us to back off privately...maybe publicly. As I addressed earlier, there are a variety of reasons (politically and economically) why countries won't support us. Please see some of my threads above for more explanations. I guess I can't prove anything...but don't u think Kuwait and other Muslim countries want Saddam out?

Saddam is part of a terrorist network that wants to harm us. What more do u want Iraq to do? Do you want to wait around to see if Saddam can pull something off before we act. The 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan was just a country that harbored Bin Laden and Al Quada. These same terrorits exist in many other countries. Saddam gives reward money to Palestinian suicide bombers and has gassed his own people. I'm sure Saddam indirectly supports/finances terrorist groups.