Actually us Prince-Fans should have it pretty clear. We love the music of a man who is a true believer in world peace, JW or not, there's no doubt. The lyrical content of songs such as "Money dont matter tonite" or even "Partyup" speaks for itself. Now if you just enjoy the music, you may not give too much consideration in what the man tries to tell us. However, if you do take him seriously, I wonder why so many in here tend to be extremely aggressive, ignorant and ready to fight. We are talking about people here who claim to be peace lovers and to act in respect of all mankind. But its the same people who thoughtlessly demand "heads off" when talking about terrorists and who scream "conspiracy theorist" when some smart people here are giving a look behind the scenes.
Now it seems we have another big war ahead of us and some of you, and I'm especially pointing at our american brothers and sisters, dont even realize that... in the words of brother percy sledge... "a change is gonna come". And this time, I promise you, it will come for real.9/11, the magic day that is now almost one year behind us but will always be in past, present future, is nothing compared what is ahead.
I dont even wanna start a discussion on the conflict with iraq, no worries. But I wanna show with an example of the past, how much wrong thought and attitude is circulating on this site and in america. I wanna talk about a happening, which just like 9/11 "celebrates" its "jubilee" these days. I am talking about Hiroshima, the forgotten.
The tragic city had organized a convention for August 6th on a topic that is very hip again: the nuclear bomb. Unfortunately, nobody showed up, the convention didnt happen. Thinking of Hiroshima might be more difficult than ever these days, fearing a new nuclear conflict in the middle east.
In June the governours of Hiroshima and Nagasaki addressed letters with protests to George W. Bush regarding recent nuclear testing underneath the deserts of nevada. An "attack of the international community" and "a dangerous signal which could lead into a new atomic age" they called those tests with fear. In Washington, like usual, nobody cared. No US-Government ever doubted the legitimacy of the nuclear bomb. Since 57 years the federals stand behind the idea of president Truman, who had once called the bomb "the greatest thing in history".
The creation of a collective memory of "America's nuclear holocaust" began right after the end of World War II. This term comes from the US-Army official Victor E. Delnore of the army-censor-department in Fukuoka, whose job was to make sure no japanese would hear about the tragic nuclear blast. However, other occupation-authorities decided to change that term because it made the public evaluation of the nuclear attack more difficult. The public liked and still likes to believe that the attack saved many lives, because an invasion of japanese soil would have cost many more victoms than the 200,000 or 300,000 who got killed by the two bombs. The smaller mischief, as they said.
America still stands behind this unproven and unprovable offical statement. Voices of critizism where brought to silence. For example Major Claude Eatherly, crew member of the very plane which dropped the bomb over Hiroshima. When he refused to be presented to the american people as a war-hero and and started to raise awareness on the terrors of nuclear warfare, he got excluded from society and the Air-Force put him into a nut-house. Becaue the major was very famous in those days he was a threat to the national myth. That myth is: America was built on the power of military, because America leads only righteous wars. No doubts permitted.
The simple thought that an arm, which killed hundreds of thousands of people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, simply because they were japanese, is not welcome. No american president ever visited one of those two cities. Too big is the threat, that such a visit could question the missing moral justification for the use of that arm. The accusation that the killing of masses of innocent children, women and old people might be morally questionable, does not fit in the american self-evidence.
Lets go back to 1995. The National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington had planned an exhibition about the War in the Pacific, which would demonstrate both sides of that conflict: Next to the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped the bomb (ironically named after the mother of its pilot), the museum wanted to show exponats which were supposed to show the results of that attack. However, the veterans unions the pentagon demanded to "clean" the exhibition. Three items were removed: burned clothes of japanese children who had died, because they could raise the pity of the viewers. One melted flower-wreath and a statue of mother Mary from a church of Nagasaki. Obviously those items were "dangerous" because they showed that not only aisian gentiles were under the victims. Finally a radar probe, which was dropped together with the bomb in order to measure the temperature and pressure. That probe was clear proof that the victims were part of a scientific experiment.The cleansweep was still not done, finally the whole exhibition got cancelled. The same year the US postal service released a stamp with a nuclear mushroom and the magic words: "Atomic bomb hasten war's end, August 1995".
The protest of the japanese government stopped the distribution of this stamp. However, the majority of the american public is convinced of the truth of its message.Even the US media at times buys into it, as the editorial by NY-Times corrspondent Nicholas Kristof from November 2000 prooves: "Nothing saved more japanese lives than the nuclear bomb."
However, many US scientists and thinkers deal with the issue. Unfortunately, nobody seems to know about it. There's two directions of thought:One follows the line of the government. The other, lead by historican Gar Alperovitz, had gathered more and more material to question the offical course. Alperovitz argues the atomic bombs neither finished the war earlier nor were they dropped with the purpose to bring the conflict to a quick end. The bombs true motive were to create a threat against the communists. And more: The american imperative which orders to try out every new arm needed to be followed. Documents proove that War-Minister Henry Stimson and the secretary of foreign affairs James Byrnes looked at the 2-billion-dollar-investment as a message for the russians.
The balance of fear and terror was none, as we know today. The USSR never was as powerful as they wanted to be and as the american military painted them. Alright, Stalin had a nuclear arsenal since 1949. However, it was the americans who have demonstrated without hesitation that they were willing to use it. And they didnt leave a doubt that they would do it again, if there was "moral reasons" to do so.
Herein lies the american claim to be the sole user of mass destruction arms. The US is the ONLY COUNTRY in the history of mankind which has produced AND used chemical, biological and nuclear arms. And america demands to remain the only country, because it is the only country who can deal with those arms in a responsible way... That is the reason why Nagasaki and Hiroshima still remains an unanswered call, which the US has no interest to discuss.
The japanese government never pressured the US to do so, too big was the fear of bad diplomatic relations. The survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki never had many friends in Tokyo, although the officials still are making clear that "only japan has experienced the horror of nuclear warfare".
The reason why I take so much time telling you all this: Last June the pentagon made officially clear, that they would not hesitate to use nuclear bombs in the up-coming conflict in iraq. And everday it is getting more obvious, that its not hot air. I have to admit, I am getting scared.
I hope that some of you who so far have thoughtlessly supported US foreign politics will think over their attitude. I hope that on this thread I wont have to read posts such as "bomb those fucking bastards back to the stone age" (although thats where they already are after 11 years of UN sanctions and frequent bombings which resulted in the death of 500,000 children according to Amnesty International).
I hope that people in the Prince-Community will help to fight for world peace, not more aggression...

no replies yet? where's all my GD-forum people? even more mysterious: how come somebody gave this thread five stars and didnt reply? (it wasnt me, I swear)...

What about Iraq?

Nep2nes said:

they never used nuclear arms.only the U.S.
[This message was edited Sat Aug 10 18:34:27 PDT 2002 by theC]

This is an intersting viewpoint although I fear that it will fall mostly on deaf ears. You see after Sept. 11 it became socially unacceptable to critisize either the president or the actions of the US political machine. People have tried but they are quickly silenced and as you pointed out in your statement the media can be either blatantly biased or pleasantly blind, content to report on the presidents vacation habits and ignore the greater issues ie: war with Iraq. If you would like to be even more disturbed by the politics of this "great" country may I suggest you read Stupid White Men by author Michael Moore. Although I myself do not back or support any governments of this world this book will truly shock you.

Words can hit harder than a bomb.

billychaz99 said:

theC
you are right on the money(imo).That book is excellent and it also gives you a reason as to why enron(who kinda started this recent corporate scandal stuff)has nobody convicted even though 18 other ceo's have been convited(all from smaller companies who have no ties to the president.
Good to see some people don't just take the word of the "powers that be" without doing some research on it.

Hey C:
Didn't you find it intersting about Bin Laden giving Bush the money for his first oil buisness. And other creepy stuff like that. Also if you want on Michael Moores web site there is a new chapter/expose' on the airline situation after Sept, 11. Read on if you havn't it will shock you even more (why I was suprised I don't know)

billychaz99 said:

theC
also bin laden's family was allowed to fly out of the U.S rightr after the attack without any questioning???I wonder who is supressing this book.I think i'm gonna start passing my copy around.

Good Idea. Me too.

hey here is a link to a post 911 observation.
http://www.michaelmoore.c...part01.php

theC said:

They've used chemical and biological arms...on their own people...no less.

Oh, I 4got...maybe I should have referred 2 Mr. Hussein by his preferred title of "The Great Uncle"


...or whatever the fuck it is.

Nuclear bombs? Only used twice by us. And was justified in doing so.

Nep2nes said:

theC
Mr.Hussein probably feels the same way about what he did

Becuz people r hypocrite's and don't hav the tyme 2 help out otha's...sum even hav the nerve 2 think that their help won't even matter cuz "the world is going 2 hell anyway..." i've heard this quite a few tymes. well my thing is...if certain peoples think that the world is goin' 2 hell...y would u allow ur soul 2 b consumed 2 eternal damnation w/out a fight?? THIS IS 4 THOSE WHO KNO WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT...no disrespect 2 any others

(remember ya'll:it ain't ova!!!)
God, i luv THAT MAN

The U.S. will not be using nuclear arms w/Iraq; that would set a horrible precedant currently as both Pakistan and India have nuclear arms (in addition to many other countries, Israel, etc) and have been making threatening overtures... Though you can count on Hussein launching leftover Scud Missles from the Gulf War loaded with chemical/biological weapons at Israel as a more distinct possiblity.

We don't want war, but there has to be a defensive policy set forth; it's fine and dandy to put flowers in your hair and dance with blinders on...but what happens when a low yield nuclear blast wipes out a major U.S. city? Or even a dirty plutonium bomb? One wouldn't be able to return to that area for YEARS.

Other countries financing terrorists are gunning for us, that's a fact. This isn't some conspiracy power trip excuse used by politicians. This isn't guys playing God getting kicks moving chess pieces on a board. This is real life with real evil. Saddam Hussein is a psychopath who runs on paranoia. He has ordered the death of men around him for any case of disloyalty (one report has him doing it himself). His son is also a sadistic torturer. THEY'VE BEEN DEVELOPING CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AND THERE PROGRAM HAS INCREASED SINCE THE MORONIC CLINTON ADMINISTRATION RECALLED THE UN INSPECTORS. What's it mean? Big trouble. If we don't act soon Sept 11th will look like a bonfire to what these Islamic fundamentalists want -- the destruction of everything (Prince, freedom, etc) we hold dear.

WE can live in our little "all things are relative worldview" and social constructions of mores,values, and that everybody's nice but tell that to Jeffery Dahmer's victims. Kill or be killed. We have no other option.

We'll be going in Sept-Dec this year. Word is November as the desert will be cooler so our troops can wear Chem/Bio suits. There will be no huge buildup of troops to call sign our intentions. It's going to be done with psychological warfare techniques, emp waves from bombs to disrupt communications, spec ops forces -- all in an effort to cause an uprising by the suffering (that's right, their starving because of Saddam, not us) Iraqi people to overthrow their tyrannical dictator.


Then of course will rebuild that country to new heights.

bonojr said:

theC
The same can be said about the Ceo scandals and the bush/enron stuff and the failing economy.People will wake up and get bush out of office
Don't believe everything you read or hear on the first take.Read some more...listen some more.
[This message was edited Sat Aug 10 20:10:03 PDT 2002 by theC]

Then of course will rebuild that country to new heights.[/quote]

theC
The same can be said about the Ceo scandals and the bush/enron stuff and the failing economy.People will wake up and get bush out of office
Don't believe everything you read or hear on the first take.Read some more...listen some more.
[This message was edited Sat Aug 10 20:10:03 PDT 2002 by theC]
[/quote]

You should take your own advice. The media is totally biased and liberal. Remember the guy who was whining that his daughter didn't want to say the pledge? Gee, turns out the girl's a Christian and has no problem with it. It's the father, a divorced atheist. Now where was the follow up?! It happens again and again -- it's the dumbing down of America folks.

What Bush Enron stuff? You mean how Enron contributed money to him? Oh, and they didn't contribute to the Dems? Ha ha. Now, I'm not excusing Bush, but if he did something wrong, let's see it...and just like the Harken issue (investigated and brought up for years now, SEC found nothing wrong), this is the liberal media making a stink with no facts. It's the implications that count of course, not the truth.

Now let's look at Enron shall we? People are going to jail and being prosecuted (worldcom, adelphia) what's the deal with Enron?! They were the first scandal! Where's the prosecutions! (oh yeah, let's also forget about Global Crossing scandal with the exact same scenario, the DNC chairman McAuliffe walked away from that with a load of cash, but you don't hear that in the news either) Ahhh, but of course Sen. Lieberman the liberal boy is leading the Senate investigative panel, and he's delaying it...why? Doesn't want to dig up some hidden ties with the Democrats, and that's Clinton's treasury secretary Robert Rubin. Rubin's CitiCorp helped inflate Enron's stock falsely, from 10 billion dollars to 100 billion dollars. Now, let's call him in and bust these clowns who hurt the little guys!!!

theC said:

Do u find the U.S. government 2 b similar 2 Saddam Hussein...a man who wasn't even VOTED in2 his position? A dictator?

theC and any1 else who thinks like him should read this:

http://www.theatlantic.co...bowden.htm

Some excerpts:

"All his palaces and homes have pools. Water is a symbol of wealth and power in a desert country like Iraq, and Saddam splashes it everywhere—fountains and pools, indoor streams and waterfalls. "

"He dyes his gray hair black and avoids using his reading glasses in public. When he is to give a speech, his aides print it out in huge letters, just a few lines per page. Because his back problem forces him to walk with a slight limp, he avoids being seen or filmed walking more than a few steps."

" But even though he indulges only in moderation, he is careful not to let anyone outside his most trusted circle of family and aides see him drinking. Alcohol is forbidden by Islam, and in public Saddam is a dutiful son of the faith."

" He proposed capturing U.S. soldiers and tying them up around Iraqi tanks, using them as human shields. "The Americans will never fire on their own soldiers," he said triumphantly, as if such squeamishness was a fatal flaw."

etc....etc...etc....
[This message was edited Sat Aug 10 21:13:32 PDT 2002 by Nep2nes]

"Whenever he would start in blaming the Americans for this and that, for everything, we would look at each other and roll our eyes," says Sabah Khalifa Khodada, the former Iraqi major who was stripped and decontaminated for a meeting with the Great Uncle. "

Hmm...

Nep2nes said:

theC
don't be fooled.i am NOT supporting Saddam,I have just learned not to trust the first word i hear from the U.S point of view.There are always two sides to everything.So i keep my mind open.

Nep2nes said:

theC
there are alot of people who think Bush STOLE this election.
So what's your point???Most americans voted for GORE.

Soulpower's views are both strangely naive and, at the same time, grandiose. He reads a book, and if it agrees with his world view, it becomes fact. This is especially true if it involves a negative view of the US.

Soulpower sees himself as an expert, a highly paid "journalist," a student of history, writer of imaginary books, world traveller, and part-time disc jockey. He fancies himself to be the US policy moderator for the org - keeping us bloodthirsty Americans accountable for everything that is wrong with HIS world. To me, his mix of truths with paranoid conspiracy theories is transparent. His only expertise is in the area of revisionist history.

For example, he enjoys selectively second guessing US policy and strategic decisions from prior wars, but ignores the horrible crimes committed by his country at the same time in history. He hates the US government, and uses his pre-prepared list of our involvement in world affairs as a sort of proof that we are hell-bent on fighting wars.

One of Soulpower's biggest flaws is his failure to distinguish the type of danger posed by a dictator like Saddam Hussein in possession of a nuclear weapon, compared with the substantially limited threat of a US president in control of our existing nuclear arsenal. Even a president with very limited skills, such as George Bush, is heavily advised and completely accountable for his actions. To Soulpower, Bush and Hussein are equally dangerous. To any reasonable person, that view is ridiculous.

As the one year anniversary of September 11 approaches, it reaffirms my sadness that we live in a dangerous world. War is rarely excusable. We fought to end the scourage of Nazis in Europe - who believes we were wrong? And we will fight against those engaged in heinous attacks against our country. If we can find a way to win, then you, Soulpower, will also benefit, I'm sure.

TheMax said:

thanks, max, I knew I could count on you
its interesting how you and others on this thread are using the term "we" while explaining governmental actions. it somehow reminds me of football fans who claim that "we" won the cup, but if their team loses, its "them" who have lost. I think I might here that from you some time soon...
anyway, if you think I gather my knowledge by reading a book, blindly believing everything and posting it here as the ultimate wisdom, you are wrong. I dont even wanna get into a discussion with you where you get your information from, that will be pointless since you are one of the greatest defenders of "your" politics here next to Nep2nes.
let me just tell you that I do not "hate" any government or anybody, and that includes "your" government as well. I simply expressed my fears and my concern and I do believe I have a right to do so.
as you pointed out yes I am a journalist and because of that I had the chance to visit those places where "your" country plays the sheriff role and I had the chance to see what "you" are capable of doing. call me "conspiracy THEORIST" when I might be the only one in this round who has actually SEEN what we are talking about.
let me give you an example.
I have recently been to the villages of Kakarak, Syahsang, Mazar and Shartogay in the south of afghanistan. on june 30th this year those little villages were the aim of a massacre committed by the US air force. the USAF claims they have been fired at with missiles and it was only self defense. I have investigated what truly happened there.
I have met a young farmer, 24 years old, with the name Abdelmalik. on this 30th of june he was celebrating his engagement party. when around noon the 17 years old wife was brought to his house, a few men, as tradition wants it, fired a few shots in the air (with 30 years old kalashnikovs). it was way over 100 degrees hot, too hot to really celebrate, so it wasnt until the evening when it cooled down a little bit that the women started to cook and the kids came outside to play. Abdelmalik was glad enough to have relatives from Kabul, Kandahar and even the pakistanian Quetta who came for this celebration.
While those people were gathering, the district chief of Deh Ravud noticed a US convoi (about 15 jeeps) who were passing thru this area since the early afternoon.
then, about midnight, it happened. one AC-130, a hercules plane armed with heavy Gatling-machine guns, flies a shallow circle above the village, over the house of Abdelmalik. it opens fire, 1800 shots a minute. a rain of death.
the shots take the whole house apart, going through mudwalls, ceilings, kitchen furniture, killing 25 people of the engagement party guests. I saw it myself, I was there when they were counting the body parts in order to put their dead to final rest. there was so much blood that they opened one grave for the blood alone.
after the first attack the plane makes a turn and comes back, follows the panicing women and children in the fields. they get killed in the darkness. little girls, boys. I could still see craters, shoes, toys.
Syahsang, the second village, is next. here too a family celebrates the engagement of their son. but the plane hits the wrong house, killing a man and his three kids. about 200 feet away they murder the eight years old daughter.
in the last two villages people were surprised in their sleep. the last attack ends at 3.30 am.
one hour later, american troups arrived, together with afghanian fighters, to clean up the worst mess and to seal off the valley. in the moring two Chinook-Helicopters flew the injured out - without telling their relatives where they will be brought. everything remains blocked off until noon, no doctor was allowed to get in the area. I arrived later that day. three days later UN-officials came offering to dig a fountain in each village --- sort of a pay-off.
TheMax, your "reliable" source Mr Rumsfeld explained shortly after that the Air Force reacted in self defense because they were under attack, and that noone had been killed. I talked to a pentagon official who was there and he said thats all bullshit. even if the shots of the party-groups were the reason of all this --- why was there US troups moving into the village hourse before that happened??
the results of this attack were no "colleteral damage", the shots hit with precision. my pentagon-informant told me the true story:
the family of the vicitim Abdelmalik belongs to the Popalzai, the same tribe as president Karzai. the new governour of kandahar, Gul Agha Sherzai, is of a different tribe, he wants to get rid of the Popalzai in south afghanistan. he found a willing helper in the US-Army. Why? Because it was his troups who did the dirty work against al-quaida, because the US were scared of losing to many soldiers. now they are doing a favor in return. business as usual. no conspiracy theory, max, but solid facts. I was there, people told me.
In Chost in the eastern province Paktia one fired governour now openly is threatening his successor to "send the americans". because they owe him. and the americans come, as long as tribal soldiers keep on helping to find Osama.
On that June 30th 48 inncent people died. because of "your" air force max, who fights righteous wars. thats not the first time that happens in this war: October 22nd 2001, Showkar Kariz, 45 dead. altogether there was bloodbaths with 400 dead victims which tribes had "ordered" from the USAirforce. no theory, even the "NY times" confirmed that number.
but max, obviously we do not need to worry. it all doesnt matter. its all made up by myself, because I hate the US as you say. you can rely on the words of general tommy franks who has said: "this is the most accurate war we have ever fought".
I have no problem believing that.

Nep2nes said:

I cant believe that after reading what I wrote above you still believe that the killing of 300,000 japanese was justified, just because you were told in school.

bonojr said:

this sounds like the proclamation of a US army bulletin. the funniest thing you say in here is that "we dont want war". for some reason america has never wanted war, but still is the number one country in the world when it comes to start unjustified wars.

Nep2nes said:

as far as I remember, your president hasnt been voted into his position either... at least not in the understanding of a democratic election.
I do find the US government to be similar to Saddam... only Saddam aims his terror to his own people while america brings war to the rest of the world.

Nep2nes said:

oh yeah, this is some SERIOUS shit, nep. this TRULY justifies bombing the iraq, killing thousands of innocent people. take your blinders off homegirl, your country can do worse than that in a day.

another note for TheMax: In your whole essay trying to figure ME out instead of the political issue we are debating on this thread, you have not made a single reference to what I have actually said. I did not write my opinions on this thread, but I have listed a collection of facts which seem to prove that the nuclear attack on japan was wrong and that america still avoids touching that subject. again, thats facts and not theories. however, like usual, you generalize and you do not dare to touch my points. that would be nice for change, max. that would be a solid ground for a good discussion.

you could also ask:

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT PRINCE FANS/FAMS SPREAD HATRED TOWARDS ONE ANOTHER WHEN HE & HIS MUSIC CALL FOR LOVE ??