SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

ummm... lets not forget that the area of the world where you live in is a culture of mindless knowledge as well... for your information: every week in LA alone more people get murdered than in my whole country in the whole year... so maybe somebody should send saddam to drop a few bombs on you so you wake up and stop that nonsense (warning: my very last remark was of highly sarcastic content, but still it carries some truth and should make you think that you too live in a extremely violent country)

jnoel said:

this should speak for itself. very well researched information.

Bibleteacher89 said:

DCM here,

I wish that it would be that easy for us to believe that we as human beings are going to run around in some magical paradise free and happy and all, but it isnt gonna happen...

I want to know how many JW's have been to ground zero to see what the end results of religious fanatacism can really be.

I wonder what the WTBTS thinks of what happened not 1 mile from them. Were/are they in that building celebrating the deaths of 3000 people who didnt do anything? Do they feel sadness? What do they feel? From the JW's that I have asked, I havent gotten a straight answer yet. Just scripture reading. I dont know...

How many JW's were in those buildings when they came down? Have you asked yourself that? What about the children that were on the plane that won the spelling contest? And were burned to death? Will they be in your paradise? If their parents arent there with them because they have a different religious belief than you, how happy would those kids be?

You may think that what I am saying to you is nonsense, but you should really think about your religion actually waiting for the end to come. It may be here sooner than you think. And JW's are going to die too. I know, there were JW's in those buildings when they came down.

DCM

dcm said:

you know what guy...7 JW's died on Sept 11. Why not try and show some respect and compassion for other peoples religious choices..dont use Sept 11 to further your propaganda preaching...

.okay okay, we all know you felt screwed by the JW faith...but your condemming of them is just about as obssessive and cultish then your perception of them...

be happy you are where you are...AND MOVE ON!!!

SkletonKee said:

DCM here,

The last time I checked I could say whatever I felt like so Skee this is for you...

KISS MY ASS!

If you had taken the time to read what I wrote you would realize that you and your JW breathren are fucking human and not above death yourselves. Stupid ass!! And your whole idiotic posturing on the world coming to and end is about as ridiculous as just about everything else that you(yes skee you. You ARE a DUB no matter how you try to deny it! ASS!)guys say. And I will say it again. This is what you idiots have been dreaming of for the longest and guess what! 7 of your people died too. You admitted that yourself. So fuck you and your supposed rant about me and "propaganda"

Dumb ass

DCM

dcm said:

Way to be obnoxious. You discredit anything you say and close any willingly open ears when you adress someone like this. Don't you know that?

herbthe4 said:

You know, you are correct! I agree 100% with what you say. My only problem with skee or pretty much any other JW is that when you want a straight answer out of one of em, they try to flame you. So sometimes ya gotta be as ignant as they are. But I agree with you. If any JW's would like to answer my question without being as rude as Skeleton Kee I am all ears. I did not start out being rude or disrespectful to any of you. Lets see if you can do the same.

DCM

dcm said:

lol...im not even a Jehovah Witness...i just respect *all peoples* choice to practice *their* religion..

and re: 7...I just happen to be at a relatives house this weekend who is..and the sorrow in her eyes as she explained to me how she had been reading a book on *all* the people that died on Sept. 11th moved me...She then mentioned her 7 brother's and sisters on a side note...Many religions believe in *afterworlds*...it still doesnt mask the pain that is felt in everyday life...death is feared by all...
your rhetoric is stale mate...sure, you can spew on and on and on and on..but it wont change how stale it is...

"Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can be attained through understanding."
Albert Einstein

"War doesn't determine who is right, just who is left."
George Carlin

We are simply products of our environment. As children we learn from our surroundings. Some of us move on and learn from our pasts, and continue to grow with our present, and our future. Take a dysfunctional family, some never get out of the rut. The same goes for the never ending wars between countries. Ruts!

Children are taught HATE, and with that we have all the different types of wars in our world from the beginining of time. Power wars, tribal, religious, racial, political, gang, etc.

I would love a world where - if you put your arms down, I'll put mine down. Let's meet in the middle. Let's try and understand oneanother. Let's try and tolorate each other. Let's realize we are all different, and accept it.

Lesson of love and understanding should be taught to children, before lives are destroyed. Yes, it is ok to be thick-skinned, but, it isn't a sign of weakness to be sensitive, caring and compassionate.

It seems far to easy for some to HATE than LOVE.

"Peace is what we're here for, and not to WAR, everybody SING." Prince


P E A C E
[This message was edited Tue Aug 13 12:55:09 PDT 2002 by EchoOfMySoul]

Immediately folowing the disaster of 9-11 in New York,the subway system closed down,and multitudes of people exited lower Manhattan on foot-many of them crossing the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges.They could clearly see the office and factory buildings of the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.Some refugees headed towards those buildings.
Alisha,the daughter of a Jehovah's Witness was the first to arrive covered with dirt and ash.After she was told to move out of the danger zone and put on a ferry crossing the east river to Brooklyn she seen the large sign WATCHTOWER the headquarters of her mothers religion so,she made her way there knowing she couldn't be in better hands any where else.
Thousands of people died in the disaster and among them were at least 14 Jehovah's witnesses who happened to be at or near the scene of the tragedy.The first two days of the disaster,about 70 people sought refuge at the world headquarters of jehovah's Witnesses.Some who had lost their hotel rooms and luggage were given a place to stay and replacement clothing.They were fed.Perhaps more important they were given emotional support by experienced Christain Elders.
Jehovah's Witnesses also sent needed emergency equipment and supplies for the search and rescue crews.Transportation was also made available to the fire department to get fire fighters to the rescue area.Ricardo a 39 yr old Jehovah's Witness and sanitation worker was involved along with hundreds of others in removing tons of debris day after day.
One Jehovah's Witness was named James Armato ,father of four children and captain in the New York fire department.Another JW fire fighter with 7 yrs experience was George DiPasqual.he was married and had a two year old daughter.He was an Elder in a Staten Island congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and was on the tenth floor of the south tower when it collapsed.He too paid with his life as he tried to save others.

Joshua aged 28 also one of Jehovah's Witnesses from Princeton,New Jersey was teaching a class on the 40th floor of the north tower.He was one who made it to the building of the WATCHTOWER though.After it felt like a bomb had exploded he headed down the stairs filled with smoke ,and water as he kept praying.He says as he reflected on those events,they have impressed upon him that he really needs to have his prioritie right-that first things in life should be first

During the days after the tragedy,about 900,000 of Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States made a determinated effort nationwide to offer comfort to those who were grieving.Love of neighbor moved them to comfort mourning ones.They were compassionate in their approach to the public.Their intention was to imitate the refreshing example of Christ by offering comfort from the scriptures.

Thank you Saffireseven,

That was what I was looking for. If the powers that be actually helped during 9-11 and realized that we are all people, no matter what your dogma, then I am satisfied and will not comment on this matter again. Who knows, maybe they will lighten up on the doom and gloom and start repairing the other damage that they have done.

Thank you again, you have been one of the rare and few...


DCM

PS. As I have said earlier before the rants, if you get achance GO to Ground Zero(HERO)and see what can happen if you go to far for religious purposes...not just JW"s

DCM-

I was a ground zero twice since the attacks. Among those dead, my wife and I knew a handful, one being Br. DiPasquale that Saffire mentioned. We feel loss from death just as any person with natural feelings does. I'm not sure where you get off assuming otherwise. You have a lot of nerve.

The last I checked, our message was a message of hope and comfort, not only for the victems of 9/11 and other tragedies, but for everyone affected by this wicked system of things. When we preach the end of this system, we are preaching the vindication of God's name and the end to human suffering. We are not preaching and hoping for everyone's destruction. God has promised these things will occur. Who are we to check his hand? All we do is obey the Bible's command to publicly declare this message so that everyone who wants can respond and be there. We are not judging anyone. That is not our place. Our place is to preach and equally important, to teach. The anglels and God himself will sort us out. And yes, of course there are ones who are JWs who will not make it. Unlike other "Christian" churches, we are not so presumptuous to assert that being a JW means salvation. As the Scriptures say, the one found doing the will of God is the one that will be saved. All we can do is try to carry the message and practice what we are preaching as well. As the following text points out as a warning for us, the ones preaching:
1 Timothy 4:16 "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."

So, again, our message is a message of hope and comfort. we do not preach gloom and doom, as you and many others proport. If you read all or any of the posts here relating to our message, that is plain enough to see.

Bibleteacher89 said:

DCM

The only thing that is plain to see is that you need to stop hating everyone that doesnt see things your way. I have hope that one day you will see that and wake up.

jazzy328us said:

As has already been pointed out by soulpower there is plenty of evidence suggesting that the US did provoke the attack on pearl harbor. And your argument that japan would have used the bomb if they had posession of it, is not relevant, since they never had one.


I never said that it was 'okay'. But yes, there is a huge difference between soldiers and civlians, also, or better yet, especially in a time of war.
If you can't grasp that, then maybe you should stop to try thinking you know how this stuff works in the real world.


yes, but what the US army, for example (as there are couintless examples) recently did in Afghanistan: bombing innocent people is just as low,... or better yet: even lower, since they always vow not to randomly bomb, but wich never seems to be truly the case. Bonojr would then simply say: "collatoral damage"; shit happens, so the army is excused...
you people really think completely one-sided.


reverse that situation and apply it to the US and all the unwarrented attacks it has acted out in the past and is planning to act out in the future and then come back with what you found out. All countries must obey to the rules of war and peace. The US tho' is so powerfull that it has no problem in breaking one or two here and there, every now and then whenever it is oppurtune for them to do so.

take a look at how much your government wants to block the international court for war crimes and genocide. Why would that truly be?
because your army is all over the world and does a lot of things wrong, intentionally or not, that shit happens a whole lot. That's why they don't want the court and will do anything to prevent american soldiers from being prosecuted.



thinking your country is still free is an ILLUSION> you already have less civil rights than european citizens and your constitution is constantly being played with.


yes and which country has the largest resume of warfare in the 20th century and intends to make it even bigger?
that's right: The United States of America.


Like I thought, you don't know much about all this. your SCHOOL never taught you that there are laws of war and peace. Typical american don't you think? Yoyu are simply being kept ignorant of the truth.

DCM-

Do you just set up these straw men and knock them down to antagonize or is this what you honestly have been led to believe?

Jehovah's Witnesses don't hate people. If we did, we'd keep to ourselves like a bunch of Amish people. It is our love for people that moves us to totally leave our comfort zone and go out to declare this message. Do you think what we do is easy? Well, it's not. But we do it because we are concearned for people of all walks of life and backgrounds and want them to know what God wants them to know.

And you can try and act like you know me, but you don't, mister. Therefore you have NO right to try and discount my ability as a teacher. I have been studying the Bible and history things that relate to it for years and have studied them from the standpoint, not of a student, but as a teacher. So you can keep your opinions to yourself as they have no basis in anything other than your own presumptuousness.

As for your missing the point...again as to the salvation of those ones who lost their lives in the disaster of 9/11 (or any other for that matter) these ones will be back soon. God through the Scriptures promises that there is to be a resurrection of such ones who die as the result of such things. They are now only asleep, as it were. In God's eyes and mind, they are still very much alive in his memory. To him, they will be back alive in a matter of no time at all, practicly. You see, time is relative. God has been around for eternity. Our time on this planet we've had to endure these things is truly a short time in the big picture. The Bible Illustrates this by comparing that a day to God is like 1,000 years to us. So, this brief interruption of life for these ones will be reversed very soon. This is a very comforting thought. Like Jesus said,"happy are those who mourn since they will be comforted" (Matt 5:4) We mourn because death is a very unnatural thing we have to contend with as humans. Even Jesus mourned the death of his friend Lazarus knowing full well he could reverse this. (John 11)

Something Jesus said,too, is to be noted. He said "everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all" (John 11:26) He obviously was not saying everyone would not taste death. No, he was saying that even if ones fell asleep in death, like Lazarus, their death would only be temporary. God would remember them and restore life to them. What Jesus showed us on a small scale when he was on earth, he will show us on a global scale in the near future, as he has now been given full authority as king in heaven over God's kingdom.

That is where their salvation lies. There is no cap on the number that can live forever. We don't know how many of us will be alive when the end comes and be given the opportunity to pass through that time protected as loyal ones to God. No, time and unforseen occurance can befall us all (Eccl 9:11) Either way, we ourselves, the living soul that we are, cannot be destroyed by these things. Only God can end our opportunity to live on a permanent basis. (Matt 10:28) Other than that, God will remember us and Jesus will call us from our tombs on the appointed day. (John 5:28,29; Acts 17:31; Acts 24:15; 1 Cor 15:20-28)

Bibleteacher89 said:

DCM - I see that there is no hope for you. When you realize that you only get one shot here you call me up. There is no utopia where you will run around free. You are stuck here with the rest of us heathens. Get used to that. Then maybe the worlds problems may be be solved with all of our heads being put together..

DCM

soulpower said:

Classic circular reasoning on the part of this self-righteous critic of American policy. Soulpower recognizes, on the one hand, that the American people were not thrilled with the prospect of getting into WWII (after cleaning up the previous war of German aggression, led by the peace-loving Kaiser Wilhelm - who can blame us!), but we, the American people, were nonetheless duped by one of the most beloved presidents in American history, that "hawk" also known as FDR.

So it's been 50+ years, but only Soulpower and a few other non-American foreign policy "experts" here at the org have been able to piece the facts together to explain, in one of their most grandiose conspiracy theories to date, just how we were manipulated by FDR's blood-lust to enter WWII. Talk about needing a history lesson!!

But wait, it gets better, the very same pacifist American people are now blamed for WANTING war with the rest of the world. So which is it: are we bloodthirsty warmongers who want to meddle in everyone else's affairs, or are we pacifists who have to be attacked (see Pearl Harbor or the WTC) to feel the compulsion to wage war? Our experience in Vietnam tells me that it's the latter. What about you, Soulpower, please pick one view of us?

Are economic and religious pressures really an adequate reason to hijack civilian aircraft and crash them into our buildings? To that other mental midget, also known as Abrazo, who wants to school us on "proportional response," I say this: If any country or individual wants to pick a fight with us, we're not here to go tit-for-tat. For me personally, if you fuck with this country, I want our response to be one of overwhelming force. I am not interesting in striking any sort of deal with an animals like Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. I truly want to see them and anyone who supports them go down hard. Frankly, it's the only strategy that works with megalomaniacs like them. See Muammar Qadhafi, please.

I must be depressing walking through life with the cynical world view of people like Soulpower and Abrazo. Perhaps it's jealousy, who knows. For one, maybe it's shame over the horrors perpetrated by his own country. For the other, perhaps it's the miserable failure of his own country's economy, the daily fact of abject poverty, and their near irrelevance on the world stage. Deal with it.

TheMax said:

this statement shows me your incapability to understand and analyse history. first of all it wasnt the US who "cleaned" europe from the terrors of Kaiser Wilhelms forces. it was Kaiser Wilhelm himself who did that - by losing control of his own actions. america's involvement in WW1 was too late (1917) and came --- by the way --- in a segregated troup system, black and white soldiers were not fighting side by side.
secondly, you simply cannot compare the will of the people to engage in another war today to the will in 1941. at that time people still didnt feel safe enough --- after all the struggles and wars america led since then and american soil hasnt been touched the people now feel that nobody can mess with them, so hey, lets drop our bombs, there's nothing to lose.
in my opinion the american people back in the early 40s were much more reasonable. and besides max, if you do some reading, the pearl harbor issue is not another of my "obscure theories", its proven by today's historic investigations. but you can still close your mind to the truth.

So it's been 50+ years, but only Soulpower and a few other non-American foreign policy "experts" here at the org have been able to piece the facts together to explain, in one of their most grandiose conspiracy theories to date, just how we were manipulated by FDR's blood-lust to enter WWII. Talk about needing a history lesson!!

its not only abrazo and myself, max. its the rest of this world. by the way, talking about history lessons: it was in your universities in america where I was "taught" that columbus "discovered" america... now if one country decides to teach that reversed history although they know better, that shows how reliable the rest of your informations is.

But wait, it gets better, the very same pacifist American people are now blamed for WANTING war with the rest of the world. So which is it: are we bloodthirsty warmongers who want to meddle in everyone else's affairs, or are we pacifists who have to be attacked (see Pearl Harbor or the WTC) to feel the compulsion to wage war? Our experience in Vietnam tells me that it's the latter. What about you, Soulpower, please pick one view of us?

you have analyzed that pretty well, my friend. times change. the american people are not a statistic. opinions change, as they are being influenced by circumstances in the world. if an attack such as 9/11 happened in my country, in germany, the rage would have been the same. however, today germany understands that the act of terrorists needs to be treated as such. it was not an act of war, as you like to point out. if it was, the prisoners would be treated as POWs. but they are treated as terrorists. terrorist action requires secret police force actions, maybe with the help of specially trained military forces. but not with dropping bombs on the heads of innocent people.

Are economic and religious pressures really an adequate reason to hijack civilian aircraft and crash them into our buildings? To that other mental midget, also known as Abrazo, who wants to school us on "proportional response," I say this: If any country or individual wants to pick a fight with us, we're not here to go tit-for-tat. For me personally, if you fuck with this country, I want our response to be one of overwhelming force. I am not interesting in striking any sort of deal with an animals like Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. I truly want to see them and anyone who supports them go down hard. Frankly, it's the only strategy that works with megalomaniacs like them. See Muammar Qadhafi, please.

been through that discussion. its america's right to go after bin laden. but he is arab, how come you dont bomb his native country? the taliban had agreed to turn bin laden in to an islamic trial. that was an offer to at least first check out, give it a chance. if you knew anything about the islamic culture, you would understand that hospitality is a major law in their religion. bin laden was a guest of the taliban. for them to put him on a islamic trial it would have meant quite a lot. however, I do believe even if they wanted to, they could have not handed him over to the US, cuz he simply vanished.
lets look at a fictional scenario. lets imagine an american terrorist drops a bomb in pakistan. I do not believe the US would turn him over to pakistan to be trialed. they would indeed protect him, give him his own american trial.
btw, so far saddam hasnt even threatened to attack america. whats your point? he has NEVER done it, as terrible as he is with his own people. but there's many terrible dictators in this world. many have been established by america.



I must be depressing walking through life with the cynical world view of people like Soulpower and Abrazo. Perhaps it's jealousy, who knows. For one, maybe it's shame over the horrors perpetrated by his own country. For the other, perhaps it's the miserable failure of his own country's economy, the daily fact of abject poverty, and their near irrelevance on the world stage. Deal with it.

actually its a pretty bright feeling walking through life with understanding a little bit of how it works. you might call that arrogance. well, I call you ignorant. not because you do not know anything, but because you refuse to know something, a knowledge that might destroy your little narrowminded view of the world.
yes, my country has gone through some shit and I take that my generation has learned from that. max, you dont know what war means, people over here have lived it. you dont know about bomb nights, about refugee tracks, about the killing and raping. my grandparents and their generation do. its a different view over here. maybe america needs to be knocked over the head once to find out what beauty they bring to the world.
and for your information: there is NO poverty in my country. its the socially most stable one in the world. too bad you dont even know that.

Abrazo said:

I thought I was commenting on the US dropping bombs on Japan, Now if you want to talk about other conflicts then don't use the Japanese bombing, Now I know that Americans are hated all over the world because I have been around the world, and I also know that we are not hated because we are free. I know that America has done and is doing evil things all over the globe, I'm not stupid. If they can enslave millions of Black people and then fight to keep it that way then they are pretty Evil. If they will make it legal to kill millions of unborn babies yearly, they are evil, if they will kill innocent people in Waco Texas because of hatred and dislike for a particular group then they are evil. I'm not defending the evil that America has done. I am defending America for dropping the Bomb on a nation that attacked her unprovoked, Now you seem to be saying that there should be some level of fairness in war. Nothing that America did besides starting a war with Japan warranted an attack on our People. Will you atleast remain consistent in your argument. Japan was wrong and there is nothing to debate, at least admit that, because if you can't then you are not a true journalist, then you would not be seeking truth but you are just a USA Hater. I don't hate anyone or nation.
I also know that everywhere the White Man has gone he has either controlled the nation or destroyed it. Not just American's but European's as well. After all Adolf Hitler was white, Napolean was white, George Bush Sr. is white and George Bush Jr. is white. I don't mean to turn this into a White vs the World thing, just letting you know that I am not stupid and that you are not being truthful. You have good points but you will never admit when someone else makes sense. And that makes you look Stupid, at least in my opinion.

soulpower said:

I love when you all say that new research shows this or that, Now that is Bull, everybody wants to change the views 60 years later, well I don't buy your propaganda, Now do I honestly believe that American Lives are worth more than Japanese lives, In the case of Pearl Harbor,YES YES. YES. YES. If you attacked my Family and killed some of my family members, then I would personally try and kill everyone in your family. If you have a problem with me then address me don't mess with my family. If Japan had a problem with FDR, then deal with him, Not the innocent American service members and civilains and even Hawaiian people who were killed at pearl harbor, Guam, and the Philipines. So if someone does not agree with you then they are speaking Bullshit. Don't take it personal I just don't agree with you, I don't hate you nor the japanese. But I do have my views. so insults will not change them.

jazzy328is said:

first of all, you have been attacking abrazo as the "journalist" before, I think that was aimed at me. abrazo was just arguing, like I did before, that america willingly had provoked the attack of pearl harbor so they had a reason to go to war. thats no propaganda my friend, and no "new theory", there's enough evidence to prove that point. now believe me, I am no conspiracy theorist. many people say that bush knew about 9/11 before it happened and he let it happen so he had a reason to go to war. well, I could imagine that this might be true, but since I am a journalist and I do take my profession seriously, I will NOT believe it until I have reliable proof. and that proof doesnt exist in that case. but it does in the pearl harbour issue.
you say that if japan had a problem with FDR they should deal with it. well, there has been diplomatic attempts for over a year, the conflict started in 1940. FDR remained stubborn, he needed the war, churchill needed FDR. so maybe that WAS japans way to deal with the issue. and I am sorry, no navy victim is innocent. if you are a soldier, its your risk that you might die. if you live in hiroshima, it should not. it should be a safe place.
FYI, you still didnt make any comment on the content of abrazo and my information. you call it "propaganda", but you have no point to prove that your knowledge is correct. do you still believe that columbus discovered america? well if you do, I guess I wont help you. history is a myth and it can and should be questioned at all times.
finally, its very sad that you still believe in the bible term "eye for an eye". cuz if you live up to that rule, you and your enemy will both end up blind.

jazzy328is said:

If you hadn't noticed, soul[power's initial post talks about the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in light of the recent, clear indications from your government that it will not hesitate using them again, if that would be deemed necessary. Now an alarm is supposed to go off!!
Because using nukes hasn't been seriously pondered by your government since Vietnam, when Nixon thought about dropping one. And we all know what a horror that war was. Against 58000 american soldiers killed, millions of Vietnamese, mainly civilians lost their lives. Yet you lost... You never should have gotten involved, everybody knew that and knows that now. Yet a new war is about to start and nukes are part of the political/military game.
These conflicts all have todo with eachother one one or the other level.


if you really have been all around the world you would know it is MUCH more subtle than that. You have to make a DIFFERENCE between the American PEOPLE and the American GOVERNMENT. Alltho'the latter is your representative in the world, they are not the same thing. Many people, INCLUDING many americans, have a huge problem with your government's actions and policies, NOT your people. Get it?


Again, this is way too much generalizing. Who is "they"? The way you put it, you are branding yourself and your nation as "evil". I have never said, nor do I think that Americans in general are evil, because of all the evil things your GOVERNMENT and your COMPANIES have done in the past.
I make a huge difference between those things. But you simply put them on the same pile... that is not the way to discuss these things.



If I throw a brick through your window and hurt someone inside your house... would you then make a bomb and blow up my entire house with everybody in it?

THAT is what you are saying when you "argue" that it was justified to drop the bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki, just because Japan attacked pearl harbor.
EVERY reasonable thinking person would know that you must act out your revenge with proportion and within the limits the law provides. In many cases you aren't even allowed to act out of revenge.
If I insult you on the street and you beat me for doing that, I could sue you for it and you will lose if you can't prove that it was a form of self defense. Then you will have to pay me damages.

'Simple' principles of law. Which exist the same, but on a different level and in a different context, in international agreements on the rules of war and peace. If a military compound in a warzone is attacked it is not warranted to completely destroy the enemy when there is no need for it. Prisoner of war is not a shallow term, it means that a soldier who has surrendered and is captured by the enemy has a right to stay alive, tho' as a prisoner, the enemy can not just kill him for being an agressor.
That is how it was in the Middle ages, but not anymore.


yes and that is the reality. If there wouldn't be such a requirement then not a single army in the world would have to worry about how they are going to destroy their enemy. Anything would go then. Maybe that is indeed the factual situation your country prefers, considering it doesn't want a neutral, international court to judge war crimes committed by soldiers.
Wopnder how many war crimes were committed by the American soldiers in Vietnam? Wonder how many rutheless unwarrented B52 bombings on innocent people were committed?
Wonder how much napalm was used on the population?



I have already said that Japan didn't have 'the right' to attack, but obviously you don't read that.
And because they didn't have that right, the USA had the right to defend itself, as is the genral rule in war and peace. This right to defend itself quickly turned into a right to get involved in a worldwar fought on two sides of the world...: In Europe/Russia/Africa... and in Asia/the pacific region...

as if that is not enough rights to act, you finally are trying to argue that therefore the USA also had the right to drop two nukes, even tho' that was 3 years AFTER they got involved in fighting a conventional war, WITHOUT any nukes.

Your entire reasoning is flawed really.



Making insults liek that isn't going to help this discussion any further and will only drive us more apart.
And like I already said, I have never claimed that japan had a right to attack Pearl Harbor. Now you are saying that I did. How does THAT make you look?

TheMax said:

The MAX... why are you so unable to discuss instead of alwys trying to bring the persons behind the discussion down? Your mind is really closed man.
That's no way of discussing and shows clearly that you have no arguments.


Naive. A country has many options on how to get involved in a war. Countries who are part of the Security Council often can even CHOOSE which way it wants to enter a war. A country can provoke an attack, it can act on the request of support of an ally, it cna act on the order of the Security Council etc, etc.
And fyi... the USA has excercised all options already.



Noand I nevr said they were. Now you are insulting me again and telling lies about what i think about this situation. Thanks a lot for being such a dick.


this shows enough.
1) you can't argue without insulting me... AGAIN.

and

2) you don't believe what I am telling you about 'proportional response'...

but your ather explain everybody in here that your mind is that of a caveman who wants to crack every other person's head if they even dare to touch his.

you are such a reasonable person theMax ... you really have reason to be such a proud agressive "American".
Why haven't you yelled: "Let's kill them all!!!" already?

that would make expressing your true opinion a lot easier... 'themax'...





not only
extremely naive
not only
extremely agressive
not only
extremely insulting

but also
extremely ignorant about other people and countries.

I live in a MUCH, MUCH better country than you, with much more allocated wealth (instead of 5% extremely rich and 15% extremely poor) And also much more peace and security than you. I don't have to worry about people carrying guns everywhere. No police arresting you for being black. No fucking Timothy McVeighs wanting to blow up his own people. No nothing of that.

soulpower said:

Soulpower, you misunderstood that double jab. The first part about "horrors perpetrated" was meant for you, but the second part, "for the other," regarding poverty, etc, was intended for Abrazo.



Hope that helps. I stand by everything else!

TheMax said:

too bad that you still didnt want to truly argue our points. instead you call us midgets.

Y is abrazo defending Nazis?

[/quote]

Classic circular reasoning on the part of this self-righteous critic of American policy. Soulpower recognizes, on the one hand, that the American people were not thrilled with the prospect of getting into WWII (after cleaning up the previous war of German aggression, led by the peace-loving Kaiser Wilhelm - who can blame us!), but we, the American people, were nonetheless duped by one of the most beloved presidents in American history, that "hawk" also known as FDR.

So it's been 50+ years, but only Soulpower and a few other non-American foreign policy "experts" here at the org have been able to piece the facts together to explain, in one of their most grandiose conspiracy theories to date, just how we were manipulated by FDR's blood-lust to enter WWII. Talk about needing a history lesson!!

But wait, it gets better, the very same pacifist American people are now blamed for WANTING war with the rest of the world. So which is it: are we bloodthirsty warmongers who want to meddle in everyone else's affairs, or are we pacifists who have to be attacked (see Pearl Harbor or the WTC) to feel the compulsion to wage war? Our experience in Vietnam tells me that it's the latter. What about you, Soulpower, please pick one view of us?

Are economic and religious pressures really an adequate reason to hijack civilian aircraft and crash them into our buildings? To that other mental midget, also known as Abrazo, who wants to school us on "proportional response," I say this: If any country or individual wants to pick a fight with us, we're not here to go tit-for-tat. For me personally, if you fuck with this country, I want our response to be one of overwhelming force. I am not interesting in striking any sort of deal with an animals like Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. I truly want to see them and anyone who supports them go down hard. Frankly, it's the only strategy that works with megalomaniacs like them. See Muammar Qadhafi, please.

I must be depressing walking through life with the cynical world view of people like Soulpower and Abrazo. Perhaps it's jealousy, who knows. For one, maybe it's shame over the horrors perpetrated by his own country. For the other, perhaps it's the miserable failure of his own country's economy, the daily fact of abject poverty, and their near irrelevance on the world stage. Deal with it.[/quote]

I like this guy, good response to the historic revisionists on the Euro socialist elite side.

theC said:

U don't know that. That election was clouded by rumor and hearsay and media speculation. U can't prove it was Gore. It's never been verified. On the other hand, it was well-known and proven that Hussein is in power but no1 in his country wants him 2 b.

It's chilling 2 think that man can just cut out people's tongues and shoot them dead away if ever they question his actions. U'll never c that happen here which is y I can't fathom how u drew the conclusion that our government and his r somehow tyrannical.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Sorry, but didn't Billy Boy make his OWN penis the center of national scrutiny? Did the Republicans tell him 2 get his dick sucked? I think not.

That whole damn scandal was NOT about his penis, as some men would like 2 believe. On the contrary, it's about being able 2 trust your leader. Clinton lied 2 the whole country and it's sad that one day my children will have 2 read about what he did in the history book.

It's like in any relationship--if I caught my boyfriend getting head, I would interrogate his ass, and grill him, and finally dump his ass. Well, in the people/government relationship we got screwed because Bill had a fun time, lied 2 every1, embarassed his poor daughter and supportive wife, and got off scot-free.

What a sad example 4 males 2 follow.

But I guess the fact that a period of good economic growth coincided with his being President at the time means we should 4give his compulsive lying?


[This message was edited Wed Aug 14 12:09:58 PDT 2002 by Nep2nes]

soulpower said:

I can't BELIEVE u c Bin Laden as the evryday Average Joe of Islam. He does NOT speak 4 most Muslims!!!

He is like the leader of Heaven's Gate (the Christian cult)---only Muslim. Calling 4 his own people 2 go against the Quran by committing suicide.

Ur trying 2 b open minded, but in the process u r saying stupid things that most Muslims would resent u saying. I'm not going 2 kiss ANYone's ass...no matter what religion. If ur wrong, ur fucking wrong and that's all there is 2 it.

Bin Laden is a rich guy (off of oil 2)...but if u look at the little boys who grow up in Al Qaida training camps (because their parents sent them there knowing they'd get fed, altho' not much) u would think differently. These boys r pumped out like on an assembly line. Their whole lives consist of this:

1) Memorize the Quran

2) become a trained terrorist

3) kill some Americans, take a stand...etc.

U think a mother WANTS that life 4 her son?

Do u really think terrorism is about politics? It's about poverty and how Bin Laden exploits poor, desperate families in his region.

Nep2nes said:

Yeah & dictators don’t give a fuck about "their" people, unfortunately it seems that the Iraqi people should pay 3 times the high price ( a dictatorship + the embargo + the forthcoming war)