Freespirit said:

I quite agree.
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 11:57:38 PDT 2002 by Therapy]

I am not in favor of using nuclear weapons in the possible upcoming war with Iraq. I'm not even in favor of going to war "pre-emptively". However, I would like to point out the fact that terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda are attempting to gain access to or to develop weapons of mass destruction. Do you think they are doing this for no reason? Of course not, they are doing this so they can use them. I have no doubt that if the terrorists who struck on 9/11 had the capabilities to use a nuclear device in their attack on the US, they would have done it. This is a problem that HAS to be dealt with. Don't think these terrorist groups won't resort to striking European nations. They will.

Hopefully we can resolve these problems without enflaming the situation to impossible degrees.

war stinx.

I went to Ground Zero this weekend to take a look for myself at the damage. And all I could see and feel was bitterness,anger,rage and sorrow. The thought of what those people went through when those planes sliced through the WTC and the following collapse.

I am at a loss for understanding human beings and what goes through their minds. I mean all of us. Not just JW's or radical terrorists or Catholics or jewish people. I mean ALL of us.

We had better get it together. Or we are not going to make it. And that means ALL of us.

If all of the nuclear weapons were launched causing WWIII NONE of us will survive.

I cant think of anymore to say. But if you get a chance, go to ground zero and look for yourself at what could happen when a persons hatred towards others is achieved.

DCM

I hope american people dont swallow that ´Iraq is Satan and we are good´ Bush propaganda.

GustavoRibas said:

I hope that Iraqi people don swallow that"America is the Great Satan and we are good" Saddam Hussein propaganda as well.

DCM

We are all people and not judge each other based on propaganda

dcm said:

I was at the site of the WTC last week, from California. Mindblowing. My sister was in the 2nd building when it was hit (survived), and my friend who was a firefighter died in the same building.
All I can say regarding the eminent wars that will come, I believe there are some necessities to them. To protect the way of life and the world. Nukes? (Never a good idea).
If you don't like the way the government is handling a situation, don't just protest. Come up with another idea. If enough people are behind it, the government will hear them. Despite how trigger happy people might be now, I don't believe the majority would condone another Hiroshima.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Well, I agree the loonies have to be stopped, but what about Pakistan. That's where I hear they have these extreme hate making Madrasas. That country could be taken over by crazies...Pakistan has arms...so does India...which has troubles not only with Pakistan but with extremists too! So why aren't we in there making sure these extremists don't over throw democratic goverments...hhmmm?!?!?

But in reality, Bush Admin has created for itself a NEW COLD WAR. And with the so-called "War on Terrorism", there is no end, thus creating a neverending agenda on WAR. Funneling billions and billions of dollars on military rather than on other needed things like education, poverty, hunger, the environment, etc.

Such a neverending military build up only really serves the few with power. Multinational Corporations, Oil Companies interests, etc. and even know the entertainment industry (RIAA, etc.) want in! They want to pass laws that violate the citizens rights under this fear/war mongering era (see other threads).


It's evident in what I read here and see and hear in other places...people are scared much like people were scared back in the cold war era.

By scaring the masses of the NORTH America people start to be Xenophobic like back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

dcm said:

These countries know, and I mean all who have "the Bomb", Pakistan, India, Isreal, they know and I'm sure Iraq does too or whoever (including the US) that if just ONE is used, it's over for the world. They know it's power. So then, what will all the oil, religions mean...nothing.


Songs like 1999 are about not living in fear of these apocalyptic (which really means an uncovering...a new beginning). Fear is what controls the masses, brings about hate, inner discordance...like a whatever rebelion against imaginary controlling threats.

If you look at many of the movies, music or art of the cold war, you'll see that they somehow have become fit for these times.

Remember the movie Mad Max? That was made in the cold war era, the 80's, Republican years. Funny how it's message of hunger for fuel and how people kill for gasoline still is relevant today.

nothing personal but peace? what peace? look around. this is an incredibly violent planet. almost every organism lives because it consumes the life of another organism.

no wonder it's hard to make peace here

Arcamar said:

[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 14:12:37 PDT 2002 by XxAxX]

i do believe we are headed into dark days. the next war will be fought on american soil, and it's gonne be a doozy.

but, each one of us can make a difference if we try

I agree that it makes no sense to target one government while ignoring other timebombs i.e. Pakistan. We should have been involved in dealing with terrorism years ago. This shit could have been dealt with in the very beginning when the Israeli athletes were killed during the Munic Olympics. It's sad that this area of the world has been able to exist in a culture of mindless violence for so long.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Well put, and I agree with your opinion regarding "pre-emptive" strikes. There's a real problem here for Bush and the our leaders in that if they exercise restraint and something horrible happens, then the media and the majority of the public will lambast them for thier failure to protect us. If he chooses "pre=emptive" action, he opens himself up for criticism on the other end.

To some of the above, including Jedimaster, please do not confuse my support of US retaliation in matters of self defense as an endorsement of Bush. I didn't vote for him and I don't particularly care for him.

And for some of the others who (in my opinion, naively) cling to the ideal visions of World Peace (to whcih I aspire as well, BTW) in the face of reality, I pose a question: Suppose I came up to you on the street and smacked you in head with a stick 3 or 4 times, then attacked your family - exactly how peaceful would your reaction be?

The U.S. is at war with Iraq -- make no mistake about that. And it is brutal, genocidal war -- make no mistake about that. And it is substantially the result of the convoluted, but real nevertheless, U.S./Israeli/Saudi alliance to control the entire Middle East region - - make no mistake about that either.
Iraq is being collectively tortured for its defiance of American and Israeli domination plans for the region.
Even official U.N. reports document that nearly 1 million Iraqis -- mostly the young and the elderly -- have died in the past eight years as a direct result of American policies. Other expert estimates put the number at somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million -- half under the age of 5.
When compared to the American population, this would be the equivalent of some 12 to 20+ million Americans killed since 1990!
And more bombing, destruction, misery, and collective death lie immediately ahead. And yet, still facilitating this terrible carnage - - no matter what public relations theatrics they use -- the Arab "client regimes" from Cairo to Amman to Riyadh continue to allow American aircraft carriers and battle ships to pass through the Suez Canal and American bombers of all descriptions to land at their huge desert military encampments, preparing another round of devastation for the people of Iraq.

Some Items Banned by the Sanctions
agricultural pesticides all electrical equipment , all other building materials,,ambulances, baby food,badminton rackets , bandages , cannulas for intravenous drips catheters for babies, children's bicycles, dialysis equipment, drugs for angina, blankets, ECG monitors, boots , children's clothes, chlorine and other water, purification chemicals , cleaning agents, deodorants, disposable surgical gloves , glue for textbooks , incubators, leather material for shoes lipsticks, medical journals, medication for epilepsy, notebooks, oxygen tents , paper, pencil sharpeners, pencils, toilet paper,, tooth brushes, toothpaste, X-ray equipment, X-ray film, school handicraft equipment, shampoo … etc



Should I say that Saddam Hussein is not my hero… (but he was occidental government’s friends when Iraq was at at war against Iran)



























Items Banned by the Sanctions
agricultural pesticides all electrical equipment all other building materials ambulances baby food badminton rackets bandages blankets boots cannulas for intravenous drips catheters for babies children's bicycles children's clothes chlorine and other water purification chemicals cleaning agents cobalt sources for X-ray machines deodorants dialysis equipment disposable surgical gloves drugs for anginaECG monitors erasers ping-pong balls, polyester & acrylic yarn rice rubber tubesschool books, shoe laces shroud material soap sanitary towels specific granite shipments specific umbilical catheters steel plate stethoscopes suction catheters for blockages surgical instruments textile plant equipment thread for children's clothestissues

soulpower said:

___
Wouldn't you say that any American's hatred towards the Middle East has more to do with the fact that it
Was Middle Eastern Men who flew planes into the World Trade center and less to do with believing that they as a group don’t deserve better?

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

okay, that may have come off as a little hateful, and I apologize. I really don't hate much of anyone or anything. I was just trying to express my frustration at attitudes like "If we just ignore war and violence, it will go away." In particular I was thinking of Lenny and Sean Ono, I believe, redoing "Give Peace a Chance". Normally I adore Lenny and almost everything he says, but as a response to the Gulf War it came off as terribly naive and stupid, and it disappointed me. It's like they were trying to resurrect John Lennon's anti-war protests back in the 60's. I'm one of the few who believe Lennon wasn't always right and just enjoyed being an asshole to piss off the square "establishment" types, guys that probably landed on Omaha Beach and defended freedom while the Beatles were still pissing their diapers. An extrememly talented and charismatic asshole. "Christ! You know it ain't easy... They're gonna crucify me!"

And yeah, I do watch a lot more tv than I used to. But mostly it's 'Blue's Clues' and 'Dora the Explorer' and Elmo, while I babysit my 2 year old during the day. Also, I think we're ALL scared, but my scaredness is more about HOW it's all going to end, not if. That last chapter of the Bible is freaky for sure, but if Jesus said so, than so it shall be. Like someone else wrote, I'm looking forward to that sigh of relief myself.

Usually both sides in War are taught that theirs is a just war-approved and blessed by God.Religious and political leaders nuture these beliefs and fan the flames of their subjects emotions and both sides commit unspeakable atrocities.
The majority are ordinary people little different than us.Many of them fired by idealism and a desire to right the wrongs they percieve.In their emotionaly charged state they seem oblivious to the fact that in their fight for "justice" they bring nothing but,injustice,pain,and suffering to thousands of innocent men,women,and children traped in the battle zones.
That is how it has been throughout History.The call to arms on both sides of the conflict and the claims that God was with each side legitimized the violent suppression of political and religious opposition.
Why do huge numbers of ordinary people willingly and happily go to war ? Because they like those who went to war before them had their values and beliefs molded by the philosophies of their day.Many were moved by an arogant belief that their nation was superior to others and deserved to be dominant.they were and are still conditioned to believe that war is an inevitable part of the natural scheme of things-some kind of "biological necessity"
Does anyone recall the command of Jesus to the aposle Peter when Peter used a sword todefend him ? "Return your sword to it's place for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword" To avoid becoming part of this world's conflicts we must let God's Word the Bible-not the shifting sands of human philosophy-guide our lives.

GustavoRibas said:

theC
Sorry to say but there are some.Look at the post...completely ignorant of anything outside their area.
forever stuck in their paradigm.What i read from a book is good.If it's in print and read in schools it MUST be true and the RIGHT way of doing things.

I just wanted to point out how phony this administration is. We see on the news that the Republican administration is backing the arrests of the individuals who committed fraud (Worldcom/Adelphia) and we see how they are committed to cleaning up corporate misconduct. However , does anyone remember that just last year Bush & Cheney would not lift a finger to intervene in California's power crisis? The only reason that they are now taking any kind of action is because of how many American's these scandals have touched. It was easy to ignore California's pleas for help in stopping the outright theft by companies like Enron when it wasn't a state that helped win you the fake entry into the white house. And it's no coincendence that they turned a blind eye to the crisis, afterall they have connections to Enron. Now that these corporate scandals have punched citizens in places like Texas, it's easier for them to hear the cries for help.

If this administration didn't have the "War on Terrorism" and only had to deal with the Corporate scandals, this nation would be in an uproar. The War on Terrorism is the only thing saving this adminstration's ass.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

theC
I try not to curse much but...RIGHT THE FUCK ON!!!

Not to mention the fact that if the Republicans put as much effort into correcting corporate greed as they did in making President Bill Clinton's penis a matter of national scrutiny then this situation will surely be fixed in no time!

typical indoctranation ... "moronic" Clinton.
Moronic Bush oil clan is a better conclusion.


sure bring some sentiments in... Prince = freedom = the opposite of Islamic fundamentalists, who just wants to destroy everything America holds 'dear".

Who started this crap 10 to 20 years ago? Better yet, how much do you know about the oil crisises that happened? How much do you actually know about the history of Middle eastern conflicts since WWI and II?

You think Bush didn't know who Osama was back when his daddy was trying to set his armies for good in the Gulf? You think osama bin laden is just some crazy fucked up peasant who decided to bomb America just because he so-called 'hates" America?

You think they didn't know what Saddam Hussein was up to in Kuwait before they did anything?

DOES THIS MAKE EVERY CRITIC OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND FOREIGN POLICY A "HATER"?

You are still young no?
You still naively believe the picture your media and politicians paint about "islamism"... about Bin Laden and "terrorists Islamic regimes" like Iraq. Those fixations on those evils are all grand distractions from the reality. You truly seem to believe that this Iraqi regime consist entirely of the most evil fuckers of this planet... That they act together with all the terrorists in the world and are only out to destroy America...

and the US government is of course the prince of peace, fighting for your "freedom and security".

that's bullshit and a pathetically limited and naive world picture.

How many political assasinations does your country know off? a shamefull amount.

How many have the CIA secretedly killed? an even bigger and evn more shamefull amount

How large is AMERICA'S CHEMICAL and BIOLOGICAL weapon arsenal? much bigger than those of saddam or other 'regimes'

[quote]

I'm not indicting the Arabic world, but its leaders need to stop putting the U.S. as a scapegoat for it's failed societies and pushing false propaganda through it's news networks spreading hatred against the West (One example of the problems would be the high unemployment of those with college degrees in Egypt. The rage and resentment of the West is being fostered with the youth, with too much time on their hands.)

As far freedom, government, economics, the Arab world lags far behind. As far as Arabic culture, it's much more cohesive and stronger than America in my view.

And yes, it is radical Islamic fundamentalists who are advancing a jihad against the West, which would involve killing, bombing, etc. They hate our freedom since they believe it's corruptive without virtues. They may listen to Prince, sure as heck don't believe in the freedom that the music promotes. Not that I'm dissing arabic music, I enjoyed it in France.

The Iraqi regime like the Iranian regime are both tolitarian in nature, I guess you call that a great time, I call it a nightmare. In any case, how do you explain the current protests in Iran? Gee, I guess it's not so great afterall. The people want change. Count on Iran toppling after Iraq falls. Once a regime change in Iraq, the dynamics of the region will change immensely.

The facts are Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, etc. sponser terrorism against the U.S. with intelligence, money, training... Tell me you've heard of the terrorist training camps? Like in the Bakaa Valley, etc? This is reality and we have every right to defend ourselves at the source.

If America was an imperialist country we would have taken over the globe by now. Period. We would have done like the Communists and stayed in Eastern Europe and taken over their governments. Is that the case with the U.S.? No. I guess it's all the higher values, liberty, justice and all that, huh?

Our chemical/bioligical arsenal and the amount we have is a bit different from Saddam, you see, he's used them!! He's used them on the Kurds -- on innocent civilians. If we do nothing like Clinton did (he was offered Osama on a silver platter and rejected it, did nothing after World Trade Center bomb in basement, the Embassy attacks in Africa, the Cole bombing), it's only a matter of time before we endure a major castrophe in an American city. To call this paranoia to justify our government's agenda is utterly ridiculous.

And as far as the death of innocents, that's what happens in war and frankly, that's Saddam's fault. He can bow out peacefully and let in the Iraqis who want to promote a better society. Saddam could care less about his people. He'll use them as pawns anyday. He's a meglomanical psychopathic egoist. (Uhm, not nice.)


no you won't.

[quote]

The thread was edited for time by the way, and actually I'd bet we're heading in Sept-Oct, the earlier the better.

theC said:

Ahh, yes, everything's relative isn't it? One can't judge one country/culture as better than another, oh no. That's sooo narrowminded! There's always 2 sides!!!

Now how many people here on the org care to leave the U.S. and live in Somalia or Iraq hmmm? You know, cruise the great markets and such... Enjoy lesser freedoms, materials, rights, etc, etc, etc.

Wake up.

bonojr said:

theC
I can barely go to vegas.I haven't been to NY or Miami either.I have no problem going to another country.Money isn't everything.I plan to do alot of traveling when my children get a little older.I think it should be on everyones to-do list to travel the world and see all cultures for themselves.So sorry bonojr your at least wrong with me(can't speak for anyone else)Alot of my ancestry is in that region(from what i've heard).The one thing i will say positive about this is the different opinions that i get to see.I rarely take these personal and usually see no right or wrong(just a difference of opinion).As for other countries and freedom of speech i don't know(i haven't been there)
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 20:50:36 PDT 2002 by theC]

bonojr said:

like we did in Kuwait? where the people there hate the US more then ever...this, *after* we liberated their people...or how about Samalia or Afghanistan? Many reports coming out of Afghanistan recently are showing that the country is in worse shape now then it was prior to our liberating the people...

The huge amount of hatred towards the US appears to foster from our hypocritical policies. We preach democracy and freedom only when it benefits good ole US.. Why else explain why China gets "friendly nation" status yet Cuba is forced to deal with sanctions that hurt not the government of Cuba but the people of Cuba...




The issue is *not* the contributions made to either political party...Its about Bush Jr's close and personal relationship to Enron CEO Ken Lay...Why isnt this man being walked to jail by Federal Agents in spiffy windbreakers with cameramen conveniently informed ahead of time to tape the whole thing so it can be shown on your local news? Its about how VP Chaney was making calls on behalf of Ken Lay, in an attempt to secure loan extentions the weekend prior to Enron's implossion...

Abrazo said:

Now do you think for a minute that if Japan had Nuclear bombs that they would not have used it, after all the attack on the US was unprovoked, They wanted to take over the world, Now you seem to be saying that it was OK for Japan's Army to attack our Soldiers, Now soldiers are people to. Most were sleeping in bed, What Japan did was Low, and if you take matters into your own hands, you must be prepared for the consequences. Now you and millions of others maynot agree with the consequences, but Japan never attacked the US again did they. Now they hurt us in Business but not by war. Now you call what I say Rethoric, but what you say is suppose to be truth, America would not be a free nation today if it was not for War. If we did not live in a real world then what you are saying may work, but we live in a real world, where everybody does not have a clean heart, and everyone does not want peace. Thats why people put bars on their windows, thats why we have the Police force, that is why we have Security Guards, and that is why we have the Armed Forces. Because everyone will not do the right thing all the time, I thank God that I live in America, I don't agree with everything America has done, but I still believe that if someone attacks you or your family, you have a right to defend them and yourself. You can pretend that we are in heaven but last time I checked we were still on Earth. Also I did not know that there were Laws of War and Peace. Maybe in School but not in the real world.

herbthe4 said:

well, thats exactly what the US did in the middle east. bin laden is nothing but an arab whose country has been invaded by the US 11 years ago, where american soldiers disrespect the values, morals and religious beliefs of his people. so dont be surprised if he doesnt react peaceful. dont get me wrong, I do not agree to what bin laden did. but I do understand where he's coming from. the equation is easy:
if the US were not in the middle east, there would have been no 9/11. its as simple as that.

jazzy328is said:

I think you need to get some of your history knowledge straight. the war on japan wasnt provoked? when are some of you brainwashed americans finally understand that it was FDR's will to enter WWII? unfortunately the american people werent behind it. thats why he did provoke the attack on pearl harbor, by months long sanctions. japan did not have the original intention to mess with the US, they were not that stupid. but with no oil left and the US invading their pacific territories there was no choice but to attack pearl harbor. there's enough proof today that the US were aware of that attack, they even moved old ships to pearl harbor so their loss wont hurt as much. they only thing that hurt was the 3,000 dead seamen, but hey thats what pissed the public off and made them go to war.
after all, america only profited from WWII. the economic boom, the role as a world leader -- all a result.
so dont tell me the US were the poor victoms here. use common sense and dont believe the hype.

Psalm 46:8-9 "Come, YOU people, behold the activities of Jehovah, How he has set astonishing events on the earth. He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire."

Isaiah 2:4 "And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

Matthew 5:5,7,9 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy. Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’”

A wonderful future awaits all of us who want to take advantage of it. Soon we will not have to concearn ourselves with this. Choose now to live under God's Kingdom. Man has proven without a doubt that he cannot rule this planet or its inhabitants. That power does not belong to him. Nor do the solutions to mankind's woes, many of which he has heaped upon himself. It is all proven to be futile. Our only hope lies with that kingdom. It is there we will find the solution. Stand up and be counted among God's loyal ones. Don't go down with this condemned old system of things that has done nothing but fail us.
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 23:55:27 PDT 2002 by Bibleteacher89]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

why are you so narrowminded? why do you never ask what made the arabs fly into the WTC? do you think it was for fun? or a failed touristic experience? how far do you think a man must hate until he decides to do something as terrible as that? and where do you think that hate comes from? come on, supa, you are an intelligent person. the arab world doesnt hate for the cause of hate. they have been one of the most peaceful religions ever. it was the christian crusades which started to upset them. however, the islamic world was the only world who respected other religions next to them, best example is spain, which was a country full of blossom and culture, where the islamic rulers let the christians live in peace until they fucked it and overthrew the islam, establishing a regime of hate and terror. man, get a grip and open your eyes to other views.

jazzy328is said:

I have already answered your "japan attacked first" propaganda a little bit above. but now i wanna address some of the invalid and arrogant points your are trying to make here. first of all, even IF japan was out to destroy pearl habor, it was a navy base they have attacked, a military territory. the US in return killed 300,000 civilians.
about part two of your annoying bullshit: you honestly do believe that american lives are worth more than japanese lives, huh? you know, that attitude reminds me of soemthing... of a pretty brutal chapter of my own country's history... the years 1933-45. back then the germans used to kill 10 partisan prisoners for one dead german... later they raised that number to 100...
and btw, just because you are typing in capitals your hateful nonsense doesnt make more sense...