agotajonesmartha said:

well, many in here seem to believe that the hate aimed towards certain ethnic or cultural groups is justified and that those specific groups dont deserve better.

Nep2nes said:

Lol, so the guy is carefull with his image. How do u think Bush tricked people in2 thinking he would b a worthy president?
IMHO the US's problem, as the most powerful country in the world, is that they do not take any responsibility whatsoever 4 what's happening in the world while they provoke other countries by xploiting them and introducing a wealth standard none of this countries can live up to.They always act on a short term policy and always focus on their own interests. Same goes 4 environemental or trade issues. And when things go wrong in the end, not bcause of their 'fault' but rather bcause of a sitation they created, supported or were ignorant about, they act very surprised and think they can, without consulting the rest of the world, start a war.

I hated all that 'Live 4 Love' bullshit back in '91 - if it were up to Prince and Lenny 10 years ago, all you mindless paisley hippie fucks might be living very different lives right now. But I expect that from hippies - holding to very idealistic principals and not considering the cost or outcome

The war against terrorism has turned into terrorism itself.

The number of innocent casualties in Afganistan has now doubled that of those killed in the September 11th attack.

All those who live by the sword, not matter what their nationalities or greviances are, will die by the sword.

Wise words spoken by a great man long ago.

Rudy said:

U'r absolutely right! Thank God now we only had some minor terrorist attacks, a little renewed crisis in the middle east, a new golf war around the corner, a nuclear war between India and Pakistan as a possibility, renewed hostility 2wards so called rogue states, annulations of international agreements, the installation of an anti-missle chield, loss of unity in the western world, not 2 mention environemental problems, developpement of 3rd world countries, ...

soulpower said:

Actually it's based on fact and the info relating to the coming attack is from think tanks; not a multiculturalist relative worldview that says all cultures/countries are equal. Gee, why is it that 3rd world countries are rejecting there ancient cultures and embracing the west?

Unjustified wars huh? Yeah, that Nazi party was one hecka of a lovable outfit back in the day, I'm sure the world would be one lovable onion w/them around still runnin things.

As far as your other ridiculous comments on here: I guess Bill Clinton has another fan when he said on his "lookit me!" speech tour that the reason the planes went into the towers on Sept 11th was the fact that America wasn't "spreading the wealth to poorer nations."

Does anyone else find it interesting that the death toll of the WTC has dramaticly dropped since 9/11? (2,300 +) I imagine it was a lot easier to start a war when the death toll was 9,000! I am not convinced the US gov't did not allow that to happen. In history and history of war that is called a calculated risk. It happened with the US in WWI (Lusitania) and has been specuated to have happened in WWII (Pearl Harbor). The tail is wagging the dog once again, my friends. The sooner we all realize that, the better off we'll be. Junior is trying desperately to legitimize a presidency that does not belong to him and finish the job daddy Bush didn't have the chance to. What has not already been exposed thus far will be. All the corporate scandal, the election tampering, missing money from congress, this ambiguous war that they are waging b/c Cheyney and his buddies at Enron didn't get their way with Afganistan...It's all coming to a head and will be exposed one way or another. There's a lot of scary stuff going on right now...and we are only a party to the surface. I am afraid to know the rest. The little I do know is bad enough. I just thank God that this will only go on for a litle while longer. When God's kingdom takes over and puts an end to all this nonsense when it crushes into non-existence all these corrupt and defunct systems (false religion, commerce, & government) we will all be able to breathe a true sigh of relief.

I almost agree with all that Bibleteacher has written , it's the first time

Rudy said:

You sound like a very scared person who watches too much TV, or rather...depends on the mainstream media for opinions.

Just so much hate in just a few words...Hippie fucks? Where did you get that? People who want peace...are those Hippie fucks?

Bibleteacher89 said:

Very well said. So well in fact that I left the quote complete and separated the paragraphs, bold a few points in hopes that more poeple read it!

Now here's an article of someone close to the 9/11 events that will blow your mind:
http://www.michaelmoore.c...part01.php

In a nutshel, right after the tragedy, the Airport industry made a list of things that would be banned from airplanes, you know, knives, toe nail clippers, pins, etc. and cigarette LIGHTERS.

Now, the shoe bomber, had a lighter...it's a danger, AND IT WAS ON THE LIST...but guess what happened...

The TOBACCO industry LOBBIED the BUSH administration to take lighters off the list so that the smokers can smoke once they arrived or whenever they could smoke, etc.

I know...this is effing amazing! I don't know, I'm speechless...you make your conclusions.

It just makes you question what the heck is going on...

Here's a few observations which are in line with BibleTeacher...Karzai, the dude who's now the leader of Afganistan, I found out recently was an OIL EXECUTIVE. I think for Exxon (pretty sure that's the company).

Iraq...I remember the "Live 4 Love" days...that whole war, it was about oil, so much that Iraq just set ablaze all the gold the white man loves...the huge massive oil pipeline fires...remember...it's the OIL stupid.

The Taliban were a threat to the oil pipelines..ousted. Sure they were friggin' nuts, but a threat to the PIPELINESTAN, nonetheless.

I always hear this "In rememberance to our heroes" but I always wonder what about a rememberance to our victims, the non-firefighters...the regular folks, the building maintance people, the office workers, the shop owners, the tourists, messangers, the building engineers, the security guards, the cooks at the shops, etc. you know.

Why just the heroes? It was tragic what happened to them as they tried saving people but I want ALSO want a tribute to the office cleaners too...the window washers, the mail room workers...

The numbers always fluctuate too much, I can understand that it's hard to count, but first 8,000 then 4,000, then 3,000 then once I heard 1,500 on the news, then now it's what 2500 or 3000. It's kind of strange.

Could the Bush administration obstructed the FBI and CIA and let SOMETHING happen to have an excuse to oust threats on oil prospects...but it went far beyond what they expected? Even Bin Laden was suprised the buildings went down...it's on a tape!

Here's another trip of an article:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2060207

The World Trade Center Towers where influenced by ISLAMIC ARCHITECTURE.

Anyway...this is all very nutritional food for thought, like spinach, or beets, things that are really good for you, but you don't get in much of the major news sho...uh, eh hem, I mean...major restaurants...the McNews!

But do the research yourself...these things are verifiable to an extent. I just translating this to vent my thoughts.

I am just a Prince fan...Live 4 Love.


~*~
edited to add a few lines and fix a mispelling or 2
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 1:15:46 PDT 2002 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

Bibleteacher89 said:

2bad u had 2 add some crazy ass propaganda, cause xept 4 the last paragraph u make a lot of sense (this time).

Hamster fervently support all love movements. War is silly, but then again; it is very human. Gues why I am a hamster. Humanity is silly in it's pleasure to kill the earth we live on.
Planet Earth will have it's revenge...

And check out my kewl signature, huh! How cool is that?

I READ ALL THE COMMENTS AND WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS NO ONE INCLUDING SOUL POWER MENTIONS THAT JAPAN ATTACKED THE USA, THERE WERE 100'S IF NOT 1000'S OF LIVES LOST IN HAWAII. SO IF SOMEONE ATTACKS YOU AND HITS YOU 2 TIMES, THEN YOU ARE WRONG FOR HITTING THEM BACK 50 TIMES, I DON'T THINK SO, AFTER ALL IT IS WAR, I'D RATHER HAVE 300 THOUSAND PEOPLE DIE ON THE OTHER SIDE THAN TO HAVE 300 OF OUR PEOPLE DIE. CALL ME WHAT YOU WANT BUT THIS IS WAR. WE DID NOT START THE WAR, THEY DROPPED BOMBS IN PEARL HARBOR, THERE ARE BODIES STILL INSIDE THE USS ARRIZONA, I GO THERE EVERY YEAR AND PAST BY IT ALMOST EVERYDAY. BLAME USA IF YOU WANT BUT REMEMBER WHO STARTED THE WAR. AMERICA IS NOT PERFECT, NEITHER IS JAPAN, CANADA, ENGLAND, IRAQ, ETC. IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR DIRT YOU WILL FIND DIRT, BUT REMEMBER TO LOOK UNDER YOUR OWN RUG AND I AM SURE YOU WILL FIND DIRT THERE TOO.

Did you ever read The Revelation?? There'r a lot in about peace and war.

Everybody is a BOMB

SpcMs said:

Yes BibleTeacher makes a great deal of sense, that last part was not crazy propaganda though, it IS in fact God's Kingdom, for those who believe in God,(plenty of information can be found in any Bible about it) that will put an end to all this corruption going on in the world, the wickedness, the suffering, the pain, the death, etc. If we are to live in a world of constant peace, God will need to intervene. This world also suffers from racism, poverty, natural disasters, drug abuse, murders, slavery (yes persons are enslaved in different lands to this very day) the list of the worlds problems is LONG.


Mankind cannot bring it on (peace), especially looking at what has happened throughout history with all these wars and fighting between countries. Millions upon Millions have died in wars. Lives lost for what? There has been far too much bloodshed not to notice the problem.

**This thread is very interesting SoulPower, a good read**.


Although I WILL pay my taxes and abide by the laws of my land, I will NOT support any wars anywhere ever. How can Governments talk about peace when all there is fighting? Is that TRULY part of their "peace process"? It does not make any kind of sense to have weapons of mass destruction either, I mean Nuclear weapons??? weapons to wipe people off the face of the earth?? If anyone can elaborate even more on this please do so.

The Bible is confusing me. I went so naive to believe GOD makes only peace, but never thought, first has to be war.
I believed HE is so strong, EVIL cannot act like that. I had first to try (still doing) to understand these things and come down from my immaginary world of LOVE AND PEACE. I feel a bit alone with this.

billychaz99 said:

You're right. good book. It'll get your blood boiling.

Politics is really only complex on the surface since what you see there is effect as opposed to cause. Fundamentally, all you need to do to understand modern American politics is to follow the money, which is harder to do since the same money that controls political decisions also controls the media outlets.

This really clarified itself for me during the last election. We were not voting for candidates, per se. We were voting for or against their financial backers and contributers; the bank accounts that buy thier voice and thier opinions. In retrospect, it's always been like this.

As for "war", I do not believe in the concept in and of itself. I DO beleive in self defense and subsequentially, for the first time in my life, supported a US military action when we invaded Afghanistan. The attack of Japan, while certainly extreme by any common measure, was a direct defense of an attack on our nation. Like it or not, this is how nations are won, lost and maintained. Always has been. At least fell lucky that we live in a nation that is capable of defending itself.

I liken it to being punched in the face, in as much as if someone is hitting you and you do not hit back, then on some level, you are asking to be hit more. I WILL swing, with everything I've got, if somebody attacks me or someone I love.

What did Malcom X say? "I don't consider violence in an act of self defense to be violent at all. I consider it intelligence."

jazzy328is said:

You've got a point, even if all the caps gave me a brain hemmorhage. I can't debate the use of the a-bomb, based on the historical and political context in which the decision to use it was made at the time. It was inevitable that SOMEONE would drop one. There's never been a weapon built that wasn;t used at some point - at least to my knowledge. AFrom what I've heard, even the US said "holy shit" when they saw what the damned thing did, but maybe that's just political posturing.

Once again though, this WAS self defense, albeit a swift, extreme and horrible form of it. Think about this though. What Japan did was like rolling up on a rabid pit bull and fucking with it. You KNOW it's dangerous, hostile and capable of some truly nasty behavior, yet you seem stunned when you throw rocks at it or jab it with a stick and it bites your fucking leg off and rips out your throat.

AS for the Bible, don't even get me started opening up that can and counting up all of the gallons of blood that've been shed over that piece of literature. That sucker makes political conflict look like thumb wrestling.

Thank you Soulpower.

I've been put back in touch with ideas about the hidden underlying workings of governments. I'm not totally educated on a lot of what has been written by you, or others that shine some light on these subjects. I do however feel there to be some truth within the accounts.

When I entered into my twenties, I spent a lot of my time pondering and agonising over the hypocrocies of the world. I spent a lot of time feeling sad, angry, bitter and a huge sense of injustice swept over me uncountable times. I wondered what I could do to help. The frustration of a gagged voice became too much to bear. I am feeling once again, after reading here, that same sense of helplessness.

I truly believe, that to fight is to lose. Maybe the way forward is to put energy to something else instead. I believe that while I know what I believe with political hypocricy and evil goings on, to get into the boxing ring with it, seems to accomplish little to me. The enemy of these hypocrocies is individual people, with lives that work, in a way that people know but step away from this boxing ring. Lives that shine the love of life.

Imagine if everyone could, and wanted to shine the love of life. Within themselves. What would happen? I imagine that that light would just naturally expose the darkness. Man, I am inspired. I have so many feelings and thoughts right now, I'm not sure that I can communicate these to you by the use of words. I think those that have experienced, even the smallest amount of what I am talking about will understand. I don't profess to live my life this way at all times. I do profess to have an aim, a goal, I try to understand other people, I sometimes do understand other people and side step the fight.

In your own time, side step the fight people. See how good it feels to understand.

'Mighty good feeling everywhere, ohh, ohh, ohh...'

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

Ummm, yeah, pleasantly surprised.

herbthe4 said:[quote]

billychaz99 said:

Here's another intelligent person on war and violence:

Albert Einstein, interview given in the United States in 1930.

"It may not be possible in one generation to eradicate the combative instinct. It is not even desirable to eradicate it entirely. Men should continue to fight, but they should fight for things worth while, not for imaginary geographical lines, racial prejudices and private greed draped in the colours of patriotism. Their arms should be weapons of the spirit, not shrapnel and tanks.

We must be prepared to make the same heroic sacrifices for the cause of peace that we make ungrudgingly for the cause of war. There is no task that is more important or closer to my heart. Nothing that I can do or say will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice, I can help the greatest of all causes - good will among men and peace on earth."

"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein


This from the man who helped make the Atomic Bomb...the so called "Weapon of Mass Desctruction" they keep repeating with imagery of mushroom clouds to freak ya'lls out for support.




~*~
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 8:44:53 PDT 2002 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

I'm just hearing on the radio a law is passed in the US that they will no longer provide military support to any country that wants the installement of an international court...crazy...

Of course, what few people seem to realize is that wars are rarely black-and-white issues. Bin Laden is an evil man, and he needs to be stopped, but does that make Bush a good man? No, it doesn't. The fact is, those fucks who flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon were evil, but can we be sure that Bush didn't allow it? Does this somehow make him the "good guy"? Like Bibleteacher stated, there is something fishy about the whole thing.

Do I want to see Bin Laden and Hussein stopped? Absolutely! That doesn't mean that Bush is some angel? Hell no! Soulpower used Hirshima and Nagasaki as an example of unjustified action. Well, nothing is so simple. The atrocities that Japan visited on Asian countries were reprehensible as well, but in both cases innocent lives were lost. The fact of the matter is, we as a race have lost sight of reality. We fight over dirt! How jacked-up is that? One poster stated that Prince and Lenny wanted us to be living "very different lives" now, but I have to ask you, how is this a bad thing? Why is it wrong to want to live in a world where people love one another and don't kill for material possessions? War is never black and white. There are agressors on both sides, and there are victims on both sides. Can we find a way to quite fighting over nothing?

SpcMs said:

Oh... but that's not the only thread they make to countries who support the court.


thread=threat..lol
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 10:01:27 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]

jazzy328is said:

Sorry to go down on your all caps expressing OPINION...

but you have no clue about laws of war and peace.

the only thing you are right about is that a country has a right to defend itself when it is attacked.

For the rest your rethoric shows very unpleasing and not well thought out "reasoning".

Every action from every country, or better yet even person, must be made with REASON and proprotionality.

saying that it was justified to drop two nuclear bombs on Japan causing 3 hundred thousand of innocent men, women and children to brutally die, because their ARMY attacked Pearl Harbor and killed many, many less mainly SOLDIERS...

is not a reasonable nor proportionate way of "justifying" the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima AT ALL.

TheMax said:

This looks much more like a personal indictment against Soulpower than an attemp to openly discuss the valid points he made.

bonojr said:

When Congress has agreed that nuclear weapons are to be used when necessary, then you better believe that.
Instead of blindly believing that ONLY Saddam would uses these weapons and that they are already capable of doing that, which is still not proven beyond a doubt. This is all scare crazy politics.


Nonsense. Millions of Americans and their "political representatives" have been screaming for "WAR" against all those evil "Islamic fundamentalists" or "islamists" or whatever Lou dobbs decides to baptize them.


sure...
but does that therefore mean you have to permit your armies to be send all over the world, and invade where ever that may be necessary for YOUR "security" and 'freedom". Yeah sure... that's SOOO reasonable.


typical macho nonsense talk.
doesn't add a thing to help your arguments.


indeed, so why are you even still making those bombs and still believing in nuclear energy and all the waste that is sold off on the black market? why are you not banning these weapons from the face of the earth, instead of cancelling nuclear weapon control treaties? Why are yous till pissing off other countries with power play politics?
Yeah sure, because America would never abuse them...
no, they are the only one who never did that, right?

Hiroshima and Nagasaki besides uh?


so THAT is NOT a conspiracy... Who here only beliefs what he wants to?




typical indoctranation ... "moronic" Clinton.
Moronic Bush oil clan is a better conclusion.


sure bring some sentiments in... Prince = freedom = the opposite of Islamic fundamentalists, who just wants to destroy everything America holds 'dear".

Who started this crap 10 to 20 years ago? Better yet, how much do you know about the oil crisises that happened? How much do you actually know about the history of Middle eastern conflicts since WWI and II?

You think Bush didn't know who Osama was back when his daddy was trying to set his armies for good in the Gulf? You think osama bin laden is just some crazy fucked up peasant who decided to bomb America just because he so-called 'hates" America?

You think they didn't know what Saddam Hussein was up to in Kuwait before they did anything?

DOES THIS MAKE EVERY CRITIC OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND FOREIGN POLICY A "HATER"?

You are still young no?
You still naively believe the picture your media and politicians paint about "islamism"... about Bin Laden and "terrorists Islamic regimes" like Iraq. Those fixations on those evils are all grand distractions from the reality. You truly seem to believe that this Iraqi regime consist entirely of the most evil fuckers of this planet... That they act together with all the terrorists in the world and are only out to destroy America...

and the US government is of course the prince of peace, fighting for your "freedom and security".

that's bullshit and a pathetically limited and naive world picture.

How many political assasinations does your country know off? a shamefull amount.

How many have the CIA secretedly killed? an even bigger and evn more shamefull amount

How large is AMERICA'S CHEMICAL and BIOLOGICAL weapon arsenal? much bigger than those of saddam or other 'regimes'


that'se xactly your problem. you have the worldview of a caveman.



no you won't.



yes over the dead bodies of countless of innocent Iraqy mother fathers and children who have never ever had one thing to do with your army or your politics and nevr asked for it. yet they are going to bleed, suffer and die for it.

"great".
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 10:54:01 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]

Although much is and will forever be unknown... the trusts in political reverence is personally incomprehensive. For many years I was completely oblivious to political issues, I simply lived my days as pure as I could ... choosing to not take interest in political issues.(sigh) Now, my interest grows... not in who is right or wrong, but where can I make the difference. I feel what soulpower just mentioned is a reflection toward my inner beliefs. Am I scared... yes... scared of "ignorance" and greed (no offense, please...it's just how I personally feel). My personal mission in what "I" can contribute is to reflect onto others what truly exists within, free of judgement... no matter how difficult it may seem. (love) Do I "trust"... very little... do I have hope... "always". In my heart I remain optimistic each and everyday, toward others..., whether they are family, friends or complete strangers. All I can say... is I do what is within my own personal power. And by no means do I support any form of violence... let alone the destructions that our "human" abilities inflict devastatingly/grossly onto others. (we are all capable, it's within us all... it's a human choice)

I do wish for Beautiful Days for all , and savor the moments that are true, even the awareness of what truly resides. Awareness is critical to the realization of "life occurences", education is mandatory for understandment and even then... it's hard to fathom what the "truth" truly is.

Best wishes to all...
[This message was edited Mon Aug 12 11:13:05 PDT 2002 by Freespirit]

Science and technology continue to advance and so logically then we would think that from past experiences humans should have learned how to make the world a happier,safer place but,that is not how things have worked out.
Our very existence on this planet appears to be under threat.All we can do now is hope and pray that maniacs will not release upon mankind powers that could distinguish all life on earth.
People are so blinded by passion for a cause that we repeat the tragic mistakes of past generations.We need something far more dependable than fallible human philosophies if the tragedies of past generations are to be avoided.
Jehovah's Witnesses are mocked for our position because it goes against the accepted beliefs of today but,we keep ourselves completly seperate from the world's affairs,maintaining strict neutrality when it comes to political and military affairs.We refuse to take up arms against our fellowman.