!. Lovesexy album cover..pretty gross
2. my name is ...as fans, pretty hard to defend
3. his movies (GB and UTCM)...speaks for itself

your thoughts....

the name fiaso above anything else....

not working with MJ in Bad...

avasdad said:

1)loveSexy was Prince's first UK number 1 album.
2) i agree the name change must have tired some fans.
3) The movies have nothing to do with it.Prince was the hottest live
act around before and after those movies.People were still buying his records.

The mainstream itself... Perfectly planned and engineered 2 suit the suits.

1) Relationship with WB
2) Name Change -
3) The music itself. Although not bad by any means, his recent stuff pales in comparison to his mid-to-late 80s stuff.

Imago said:

Also, news reports on his personal life. Let's face it, his p&r paints him as eccentric at the very least.

The name change (made him come across as ultra-weird)
Two movie soundtracks back to back (doesn't seem like a good idea)
Mayte(Nuff said)

I wouldn't say the Lovesexy cover hurt his carrer, just that albums sales

If he had never married Mayte, and never released D&P.. i don't think i would have made it thus far. he would have remained in the past, frozen in his Dirty Mind, controversy, little red corvette, sexuality... 1999. this world is drowning me, and the only thing i don't regret about it is prince.

avasdad said:

While I agree that the name change hurt his mainstream success or appeal...most people are past that. It's sort of an odd question to ask really with regard to Prince since he's always gone back and forth between pandering to the mainstream and challenging the mainstream...releasing demo tracks on Dirty Mind, creating an album with 10 minute songs (1999), insisting the odd When Doves Cry be the lead single for PR, releasing If I was Your Girlfriend as the second single off SOTT, putting out jazz albums, over-saturating the market with product, etc, etc, etc. So when we say what hurt his mainstream status I think we need to define it a little better- thusly, I don't think we can include the LoveSexy cover because we can include dozens of "challenging" images from his past- that's part of who he is. That duality is what has kept him interesting...to me he's been the most "underground" of any artist in rock history...I've made this comment in the past and it usually provokes much surprise and initial dismissal among my friends until I elaborate...very few rock artists truly tell their entire fanbase to f- off the way prince has. Bands or performers that remain underground are pandering to their fan base. Prince on the other hand offends his avant garde fans when he panders to the mainstream and pisses off his mainstream fans when he does something off kilter or non-mainstream. In essence he is pissing off everyone at some point...it has been beautiful and frustrating to watch.
Thus, I think if we rephrase this a bit and say- What has caused Prince to not be able to overcome his sometimes defiant attitude towards the mainstream and periodically achieve mainstream success when he releases mainstream products? For me the easy answer is to just say today's audience doesn't accept him anymore and move on...I believe this is BS though. Mainstream America could never digest an album like the Rainbow Children or lovesexy right now. But albums like 3121 could be very successful if the big, record machine was behind it. I've seen too much crap go top 10 to believe his mainstream product could not fly if handled correctly and if other nefarious things were not at work . I believe the issue is within the machine and I say machine because I don't believe it's a simple issue of a record company being behind him.. I think it's a complex issue that has developed as a manifestation of both long developed animosity directed towards Prince all through the music business ranks - at all levels and across the entire industry. I think it's a subtle thing- I know the industry isn't sitting around saying we're not going to play this prince stuff or give it promotion...I believe a culture has built up around his stuff that now permeates the business' attitude towards Prince. And I think it's very transitory- a few years ago I believe it was more of a conscience reaction and now it's more culturally engrained that his stuff won't fly. Secondly, I don't think the music machine knows what to do with him...hell, they didn't know how to handle him when he was changing the face of music and was at the height of popularity. This when the industry was more open to allowing creative musicians to grow and challenge to status quo. Radio has become so stratified I just don't know if Prince is capable of putting out an album that could cut though all of this and garnish him mainstream success. I'd say it would have to be as commercially accessible as 3121 yet as groundbreaking as TRC. Which means he'd probably have to make a record in the ground-breaking manner of 1999, PR, SOTT. And they would have to be relative to today's sound- which I've seen no evidence he is capable of doing anymore. We get bits and pieces of it now and that 's probably all we can expect. There's always a chance that he does something that just sort of catches on as the thing to like among the mainstream with some sort of gimmicky tie in ala Santana. But that seems unlikely since it's been tried by P before and I don't think that's enough to cut thru what I outlined above...

1. The emergence of Hip Hop/ Rap as the dominate musical genre is what ended Prince's mainstream status. Not only has Prince been effected all pop/rock stars have been effected . This cannot be understated because no one outside of these bullshit rappers and no talent strippers posing as musical stars is actually having success in music now.

2.Time - If Prince released the same music he is releasing now in the late 80's people would be raving. Prince is his own rival and his catalog is so vast that fans have a hard time defining their own favorite era. Prince's so call hard core fan base may be his worst enemy. I cannot count how many times people say ..." _____ (current album) doesn't sound as good as _____ (neo classic album that didn't sell either but has reached mythical status 10 years later.)"

3.Releasing the Gold Experence album 2 years late really hurt Prince because he really needed that album to sell and it did not.

Too many birthdays.

muleFunk said:

Interesting. I would like to see a entire thread dedicated to discussing how rap/hip-hop has affected P's career.
[Edited 8/21/06 9:19am]

ElCapitan said:

All too true.

The things that hurt him are the same things that helped him. His creativity & willingness to take chances, his refusal to just do what works, his complete control, and his belief in his vision.

Even the movies. Purple Rain helped make him a superstar, Sign o the Times helped solidify his status as one of the great performers & musicians, but he other two simply baffled people.

1. he got older
2. he stopped being the only person who cussed and talked about taboo things
3. radio moved on

1-He cut his hair. (Am I the only one who dug his long hair?)
2-The name change.
3- UTCM. That movie just didn't do it for me. P in fingerwaves.

Don't know any event that can "kill"anything Prince!

Bad vids. I liked some of his vids, but a lot of them looked cheap compared to MJ's or Madonna's. Prince's vids always looked like they were made in Paisley Park sound stage, for the most part.

Rap presented such a different image of "masculinity" that Prince could not project. It became the 'rebel' music.


And that name change was flat out goofy.

The Oprah interview. She made him out to be the worst kind of weirdo even though he was going through such a tough time.

avasdad said:

What's gross about it?

In order (Remember I am guessing mainstream views here and not my own, I would still follow the little guy even if he started shitting bricks and selling them!

1. His music became more self indulgent and less mainstream. He didnt do Purple rain 2, True Prince fans recognised this as him progressing, but the mainstream moved on, and also after 1990 changes from being a trend setter to a trend follower, by 2000 he was a trend lagger. As accomplished as the present Music sounds it is very dated.

2. The symbol/Warners fracas, I think this type of crazy shit scared the mainstream more scared, not to say I didnt like it, but its a mainstream here. People already had one black weirdo musician with Michael Jackson, they didnt need another with Prince, whom in the 94/97 period got weirder with every passing day to the non fan.

3. Larry Graham, the religious change of views affected the quality of his music and revealed his intolerant side. Prince forgot a high percentage of his fans were homosexual and or non religious and their patience of course has worn out. Also Jehovahs arent exactly the most tolerant or loving church out there.

However the quality of music has improved in the past few years, he is Prince once more and hes toned the religious stuff down and even made it funky with the song "The word" Princes sanity has returned and all of a sudden the mmainstream may embrace him again!

Prince has NEVER been mainstream...and NEVER will b.

he is a true Artist, a Maestro, he reminds me of the big band leaders, Ellington, Hines, Goodman, Calloway, Armstrong, Davis...

he creates as he c's fit, whether or not it fits u.

eye can appreciate the body of Prince's work, non of it is co-hesive, yet it all stands alone. u want a style? Prince has done it, and done it well.

2 b able 2 play one man's music, 4 dayz, and never play the same cut is priceless.

and if we own closet cutz, think of the massive riches, Prince has never allowed us 2 c or hear.

hmmm...if eye were Mani...whew!
the videos, and the music, and THE MAN...right there, EVERY DAY????

...there has 2 b more 2 the Prince enigma than meets the eye, or ear, since ppl do leave him.....eventually.