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The self-indulgence of Prince As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. | |
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The beauty of an artist like Prince is that he is critic proof. He does HIS music HIS way, as ALL artist should do. Either people dig the outcome or they don't. | |
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people will have negative things to say about ANYone .... i know that ... so well ...from business ....
i take the "star ratings " critique with a grain of salt ... i used to avidly follow rolling stone on such ratings .... but i found ... as with Prince and other artists that u mention ---- they get monotanously predictable ... oh ... another ___ album by ___ with 3 stars ....   | |
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tricky99 said: As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. I admit I have called ONE of his albums self indulgent - but that comment comes from a life long fan - whos been with him through all his changes - good or bad - Prince is entitled to be as self indulgent as he chooses to be - its his music and he can do what he wants with it - we should all count ourselves lucky to be a fan of a man whos music can change and develop and not stick to the same style. I have not always agreed with everything hes done or some of the music hes put out there - and thats why I dont listen to the album I called 'too self indulgent.'This doesnt mean I undervalue or dont appreciate his music - I just stated an opinion - and moved on - listening to other P albums that appealed to MY own style Even though some on here may diss him sometimes - it dont mean we dont love him any less - it just means what is one mans trash may be another mans treasure. This is a site for us to air our opinions on Prince - good or bad )[Edited 8/3/06 11:10am] 
'Ive never been 1 2 hide my feelings, Baby, u blow my mind I painted your face upon my ceiling, I stare at it all the time...'
http://www.myspace.com/welshmess | |
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tricky99 said: As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. Preach on! 
Absolutely wonderful observations and opinions  | |
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Graycap23 said: The beauty of an artist like Prince is that he is critic proof. He does HIS music HIS way, as ALL artist should do. Either people dig the outcome or they don't.
yes he is very lucky that he is able to do that. he has the $ so as long as he covers his cost... he can do anything he wants. but he still wants...no craves success. | |
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Great post Tricky, I agree whole-heartedly. Where would we be without Prince's self-indulgence?
His work shouldn't be above critcism though - criticism is just opinion, and it's never wrong to express an opinion. (That's just my opinion ) | |
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SlamGlam said: Graycap23 said: The beauty of an artist like Prince is that he is critic proof. He does HIS music HIS way, as ALL artist should do. Either people dig the outcome or they don't.
yes he is very lucky that he is able to do that. he has the $ so as long as he covers his cost... he can do anything he wants. but he still wants...no craves success. Is there ANYONE whom craves failure? | |
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Graycap23 said: SlamGlam said: yes he is very lucky that he is able to do that. he has the $ so as long as he covers his cost... he can do anything he wants. but he still wants...no craves success. Is there ANYONE whom craves failure? musical success - to me - is when the simplest song - touches the most hearts - and liberates the most minds . " Imagine " by John Lennon is a good example of this. x " the embassy shut to keep the fools out " - as above, so below. | |
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I think that an artist NEEDS to be self indulgent to create yruly wonderful music. The music has to please and reflect the artist. That's why so many artists fight to do thier own music. They want the music to be as real to them as possible and be what they wanted it to be. And Prince does that. He always does his music his way. The attitude I get from Prince and others like him is "This is my music, love you if you like it, fuck you if you don't" And most artists with that mentality are all HUGE stars! and Legends! I love a Man who:
Wears More Make Up Than Me. Wears Four Inch Stilleto Boots. Changes His Name To An Unpronouncable Symbol. Who Changes His Name Back From An Unpronouncable Symbol. Oh And Most Importantly, Who Is Sexy Little Drop Of Butterscotch | |
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Graycap23 said: SlamGlam said: yes he is very lucky that he is able to do that. he has the $ so as long as he covers his cost... he can do anything he wants. but he still wants...no craves success. Is there ANYONE whom craves failure? no but there are some deluded into thinking that prince doesn't care about success. that he doesn't want his songs to be hits. | |
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tricky99 said: As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. Can we cut to the chase? I agree P is a musical genius. No argument there. Self indulgence on P's part is; shutting down his website with absolutely no explanation to the "Lifetime Members" who subscribed. I'm clearly "out of touch" with HIS thought processes. He's not only outside of the box. he's outside the hemisphere. He is not more intelligent than his fans (other than music) AT ALL. Quite the contrary. He gets an F- on business ethics from me. What's legitimately overvalued is his fan appreciation. ZIP. [Edited 8/2/06 20:33pm] | |
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xplnyrslf said: tricky99 said: As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. Can we cut to the chase? I agree P is a musical genius. No argument there. Self indulgence on P's part is; shutting down his website with absolutely no explanation to the "Lifetime Members" who subscribed. I'm clearly "out of touch" with HIS thought processes. He's not only outside of the box. he's outside the hemisphere. He is not more intelligent than his fans (other than music) AT ALL. Quite the contrary. He gets an F- on business ethics from me. What's legitimately overvalued is his fan appreciation. ZIP. [Edited 8/2/06 20:33pm] i dont agree with the way that went down either but i found this rumi quote the other day..... " some cruelties, come from a deep friendship " btw. in ref to the 'box', did u ever notice how at the npgmc the whole site was inside a very small box? it was a reflection of the state of mind of the people who created the site, and being employed by Prince, a reflection of his state of mind as well : inside the box. global consciousness has accelerated at amazing speeds to wonderful new heights and broader outlooks, more and more people becoming capable of taking in a much bigger picture, considering a much bigger picture, just by the exansion of their own souls, because they are willing to do the work. there are many who are trailing behind on the path to Inner Peace and Mind-Expansion because they are clinging to old worn out systems that simply do not work anymore. they cling to them through fear of the unknown. ego and arrogance are their main captors. it takes a smart man to know how to be successful in a commercial world it takes a wise man to be successful in a natural world. x " the embassy shut to keep the fools out " - as above, so below. | |
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i really never had a problem with him shuttin down his site ... i never went there .... and ... when i did --- i wasted too much time navigating around to find out what concert tix i just missed cus it was 12:10 and i shoulda logged in at 11:45 to find out tix were on sale from 12:00 til 12:02  | |
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SnidelyWhiplash said: i really never had a problem with him shuttin down his site ...
i am just curious about what he is going to do when the site opens back up? he can not legally just close the site re-vamp it open it back up and then charge all over again. the contract was lifetime. closing it to make it better is not legal grounds to end the contract. | |
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xplnyrslf said: tricky99 said: As the years have passed I have observed this statement many times with regards to Prince. Some reviewer or orger will critique some prince work or general time period as being "self-indulgent". I find myself mystified by this definition. What exactly does it mean? When is an artist not self-indulgent? If Prince were to poll the critics and get their input into exactly what he should create would he then not be self-indulgent? I guess he would then be critic-indulgent lol.
I find there to be an inherent contradiction between the labeling of Prince as a genius while at the same time accusing him of being out of touch with the thought processes of the general population. Isn't it the idea that a genius will by definition think outside the box? If a genius is creating music that is not readily accessible by the masses is that unexpected? What would be disheartening would be if a musical genius decided to curtail their own musical sensibilitities because the critics or fans did not appreciate the direction of the musical expression. Do u give the people what they want knowing that by doing so u will garner the most praise or do u follow your muse to where ever it takes U (hence self-indulgence)? Prince is invariability more intelligent (at least musically) then his critics, fans, and the general public. They being the ones who have labeled him as such (genius). It really is a given that he will outrage the musical sensibilities of most individuals at some point. The miracle is that Prince has been able to bridge the divide between the avant-garde and the popular. This in it self points to a level of genius rarely found in the music world. Most folks can't grasp the full talent. They only grasp onto the part of Prince that satisfies their own musical boundaries. Unlike most artists Prince is a moving target. Constant production and assimilation are the hallmarks of his career. At each juncture and twist in the road there have been many that could not make the transition from one musical direction to the next. The Prince of Dirty Mind is not the same Prince of 1999. The Prince of TRC is not the same Prince of 3121. This constant fluctuation is even more difficult for the critic to assimilate. Not only is their context usually incomplete (not familiar with outtakes, internet only releases, and those albums not blessed with the stamp of approval by major labors) but they also tend to contrast the latest reviewed work with the most popular Prince (I.e. Purple rain, 1999). When in actuality it would be just as valid to compare say 3121 with Batman. Thus there is no continuum. Prince's work is always compared to a brief moment of time that really only equates to his most popular moment not necessarily his best moment. I always find it rather sad when Prince is reviewed and gets a 2 star rating and then later on the same page someone like Britney Spears receives a 3 star rating on her latest piece of pop fluff. It the equivalent of celebrating someone getting a "B" in basic arithmetic over someone getting a "C" in quantum Physics. Maybe the problem is we under value art or don't think of popular music as an art form. Thus we undervalue Prince and his career in general. I say Prince be as "self-indulgent" as u desire. I for one will be hanging on each "self-indulgent" note. Can we cut to the chase? I agree P is a musical genius. No argument there. Self indulgence on P's part is; shutting down his website with absolutely no explanation to the "Lifetime Members" who subscribed. I'm clearly "out of touch" with HIS thought processes. He's not only outside of the box. he's outside the hemisphere. He is not more intelligent than his fans (other than music) AT ALL. Quite the contrary. He gets an F- on business ethics from me. What's legitimately overvalued is his fan appreciation. ZIP. [Edited 8/2/06 20:33pm]  [Edited 8/3/06 7:28am] | |
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[/quote]shutting down his website with absolutely no explanation to the "Lifetime Members" who subscribed. I think there were explanations .... basically --- they wanted to revamp it ... i think everyone who has a website does this occasionally ... also --- they said they were gonna come back with a better site ... and thirdly .... we have also learned that they were getting sued for copyright , etc .... so .... i think there is an explanation .... as with everything Prince ... and Prince FAN related .... he doesnt say much ... and some of his fans are NEVER happy ....
the contract was lifetime. closing it to make it better is not legal grounds to end the contract.[quote] i truly doubt he would .... but then again .... I have gotten to that age where i dont care too much what Prince does .... i like to watch ... listen ... maybe get surprised .... I admit - to having been not totally happy with the club site, etc .... but .... I also admit ... it didnt cost too much and i got the best tix i had gotten in a long time - along with new music ....
i think what the NPGMC did provide for Prince was some interaction with fans--- and it grew his base .... so much - that he doesnt wanna piss that fan base off .... just my opinion ....(by charging a new price, etc ).... we shall see .... | |
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SnidelyWhiplash said: i truly doubt he would .... but then again .... I have gotten to that age where i dont care too much what Prince does .... i like to watch ... listen ... maybe get surprised .... I admit - to having been not totally happy with the club site, etc .... but .... I also admit ... it didnt cost too much and i got the best tix i had gotten in a long time - along with new music ....
i think what the NPGMC did provide for Prince was some interaction with fans--- and it grew his base .... so much - that he doesnt wanna piss that fan base off .... just my opinion ....(by charging a new price, etc ).... we shall see .... ellipses EVERYWHERE  [Edited 8/4/06 7:44am] | |
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