Now I am not one who forces my beliefs on anyone. That I can truly say.

I know that we should all forgive those who have sinned, but what I don't get is this:

1. Why in the heck do people who have sinned so badly, who are now into the Lord, try to force their beliefs on me and anyone else around me?

You know, we are all imperfect human beings. And I do forgive those who have sinned, and commend them for turning to the Lord for a better lifestyle, but to sit there and try to force their beliefs on me like that, it's totally wrong. That's one flaw I do not stand for.

Most religious people act like they haven't done a thing wrong in their lives, like they are all perfect in the eyes of the Lord. Why is that? Why do churchgoers see people like me who choose not to go to church see me as a sinner?

Premarital sex, prostituting, drugs, alcohol, etc., those things are not me. Me being a virgin, I already know better. I know not to do that stuff because it is not right in God's eyes.

For anyone who has turned their lives unto the Lord, it's all good, but don't sit there, knowing that you've done stuff like premarital sex, prostitution, drugs, alcohol, and the like, and tell me or lecture to me that I am wrong for not going to church. (or lecture to me about any other stuff for that matter).

All I am saying is, for those of you who are religious (even though I am not but I do believe in God), please don't try to force people like me to go to church, or don't try to lecture us on what you feel we need to do with our lives, or tell us "you need church". It won't help you any if you even think of doing that.

There are some hippocrites who do attend church, and when away from church, they turn back around and sin again and again. That's why I don't trust churches or people who are religious. The intimidation is always there. I shouldn't have to feel so intimidated by these "bullies".

That's just my opinion.

Any comments, people?

I totally agree with U.
Everyone has to come to terms with himself
in his own due time. No one should try to
force change on another. No one should allow
himself to be coerced into comformance to the
beliefs of another.
Also, no one should allow himself to be
intimidated by another.

Whenever anyone becomes self-righteous in his
beliefs, he is actually defeating himself.
Self-righteousness is not a virtue.

You are also right in saying that we have all done
things that are wrong... therefore there is no
room for being judgemental of others.

Peace,
SensualMelody

-

morena77 said:

I'm myself am no , but this year I've discovered faith and started reading a bible to get a better understanding of all the bad stuff that's been going on. I agreed and acknowledged my own mistakes and try to learn from them to move forward. I dont have to attend a church to do right. I just need to keep faith and goodness in my heart and mind. Jahova knows all. For all of those external negative pressures our current society puts on us... I view all of that as 'Evil' doings. We all need to do what is 'right' and 'good'. BUT, I suppose being 'right' and 'good' can be interpreted however people want it to be. Someone else may think smoking pot is good. I dont! Personally, I've made the choice to leave a lot of things alone.. I don't go to night clubs anymore because of all the drinking, smoking and ignorance by men and women.
They need to see themselves under the influence. They look stupid. It just so happens that I believe most of what Prince does these days but won't exclude meat or pork from my diet. Some things I just cant let go of and by no means am I perfect.

Thats all!

I have a more interesting question..what does "sin" actually mean? I've been told that it meant "miss the mark"..i don't believe premarital sex or drinking alcohol is a sin.

I personally believe that sin, is doing anything that puts you further away from God, I know that some faiths and organizations believe that as well. but, what you interpret as pushing you away from god is your own opinion

Morena... that's why I find it so hard to call myself a Christian. Do I really want to associate myself with all those hypocrites?! I have a VERY hard time going to church for all I ever see are pretenders, if you know what I mean. So, at the very least, I try to read and study the Bible often, and pray every day -- actually, talking with Jesus throughout the day and keeping a relationship with him. I believe He knows us best and works with each one of us individually. We certainly can't transfer the expectations we have for ourselves onto other people. We're each different, and only God truly knows our individual hearts.

I remember I was at a dentist appointment and while I was in the waiting room this woman was talking with another woman that attended the same church as her. She was talking kinda loudly about another woman who she felt wasn't "saved" and how she is just pretending and such because she still watches soap operas and does a few other things that this woman sees unfit 4 savior. Mind u, during her loud conversation she admitted how she was once "unsaved" and the bad things she used 2 do. Every1 else in the waiting room couldn't help but hear her and look at her bad mouth this other woman like that.
I couldn't help but shake my head and say 2 myself that it's people like her that give church the bad rap that it has. This woman was unbelieveable!

morena77 said:

I agree with you Mo. I have been in the same exact position you are. I acted on what I saw (as far as hypocrisy, in church) I caused a whole lotta ruckus, and I'm proud of it! Because I exposed those whom were taking advantage of people through religion. I believe religion is man made, and I trust God, I don't trust man.

You can hate me now...

Blue
Dont play me

Thats the problem when people push there beliefs on others. I just read here that people don't trust the Church, they are all Hypocrites and they don't want to associate with those people. Unfortunately there are Christians who do push and think that they have to turn others. When actually they drive people away. I myself am a Christian a follower of Christ. I don't push my beleifs on people. Please don't think just because some people do approach you in a pushy way or act like they are perfect that Christians are all that way. I never go around pointing out other peoples faults and try to reach them that way. It just doesnt work as i just read here about your experiences. I am not perfect. I do share my faith whenever i get the oppurtinity, just what God has done in my life. Everyone in the Church is a hypocrite because we don't practice what we preach. Most of us are there to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are called to reach other people but we have to go by the example of Christ. God does tell us to spread the Gospel and reach others. Some people just don't really know how and they turn people off. Love, compassion, gentleness and respect is what the Bible teaches. Among many other things. And we should always be prepared to give an answer to every man who asks us for a reason for the hope that we have. The best way for us Christians to witness to others is to just live a Godly life and people will notice. Because of that they will ask you and then you can share. This is just one way to reach others. Anyways i hope this makes sense. Im not a good writer and this may be the longest post i ever wrote. I just felt i should share this time. For those of you who beleive in God, Pray and read the Bible. Continue to do so and God will guide you in the direction you should go.

Why do so many religious folks get so up in arms about people who are for the separation of church and state, when one of the most conservative religions, the Amish, have believed in the separation of the church and state for hundreds of years?

there's a couple of things i've found. One is that some people are just hyped on God and get a little over zealous about their spiritual growth.

secondly, premarital sex, prostitution and all the things you've named are open for all to see but there are so many things that God doesn't like about the inner man and this is why so many will be surprised will be with God and those left behind.

God likes a good heart even though you've messed up. Look at all of the people he chose to carry out his plan. They were murderers, drunks, thieves, etc but their hearts were genuine. So in your post you talk about the things you haven't done but how's your heart...who do you treat people?

Rhondab, I treat people with respect first. But I do have the right to tell anyone off if they decide to start trouble with or get nasty with me, I do have that right.

When you live in New York City, you have to put up some sort of front, because there are lots of crazy people here. You can't be a soft person, you've got to defend yourself at all times, so of course I can get mean when I want to but only to those who I feel are negative toward me for no reason.

My heart is fine. I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior into my heart a long time ago, when I was at the tender age of 7. And still till this day, I love the Lord Jesus Christ.

So how do I treat people? I treat them with the utmost respect, but when it comes to someone getting stupid with me, I say what I have to say, and then leave the situation alone. Why, because it's their personal problem not mine. And I don't need anyone's problems to be put on me.

Other than that, even though I don't like them and keep a certain distance away from them, I still talk to my enemies, not as friends, but on a Hi and Bye basis.

As long as God knows that I have a good heart, He knows that I am good to go.

So how's your heart Rhondab? How do you treat others in your present life?

I had a student a couple of years ago who used to use blessings like a weapon. I have never heard anyone say a more hostile "God bless you." It was amazing and alarming to watch.

I became a born again Christian my first year of college. (Many many moons ago.) I always thought the best way to show people how you felt about God was in the way you conducted your life from day to day. That, imho, has nothing to do with clubbing anyone over the head with your religious beliefs.

Sometimes, folks who are new to a religion take the steam roller approach. Live and let live. (And dodge the steam rollers as politely as you can.)

I also have a question.

Do you think you would still believe in the "lord" Jesus Christ if you were born in China? Or in Iraq? Or in any other country that doesn't have Christianity in its roots?

Does it actually really matter? If so, why?

First off, I did grow up in a Christian family, went to a Christian church when I was little, but I do not consider myself a Christian, or any part of a religion for that matter.

I did say it once and I will say it again: most religions are corrupt.

They constantly fight each other all because they have different beliefs, and I don't need to get caught up in the drama, especially religion drama.

Maybe God said that it wasn't meant for me to be born in China or Iraq, or to be Chinese or a resident in Iraq. It was meant for me to be born here in America, New York City. And from that, I live my life the way I am supposed to live it: positive, one day at a time, everyday.

Bottom line is, I am a good person, but I don't have to join religion to learn how to be a good person. Some of the most corrupt people come from religions.

But I guess most people won't believe me.

Christ is for sinners. maybe thats why Christians come off kind of sinny.

How could someone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior not be a Christian? I agree religions are corrupt but if your a Christian your in a relationship with the one who created you. Thats not religion. The only reason we follow Christ and obey his commands is because we love Him. Jesus Himself says "if you love Me you will follow my commands" and Christ started the Church. I say this with gentleness and respect.

morena77 said:

don't poise the question to me but to yourself. This is your thread.

To Rhondab:

Well then that only tells me that your heart is probably not an okay one.

Besides, even if it's my thread, you can't go around telling me I can't ask this and ask that, I ask what I want to ask.

I don't recall you being my authority figure.

Abrazo said:

***

Hi Abrazo,
Of course U know the answer to your question.
No,probably not...up to a point.
Even here in the U.S.,not all adhere to this belief.
But now with the use of modern means of
communication, all nations are being exposed to the
teachings about Christ. That does not mean that it
will be easy for those of other persuasions to
convert...unless God himself intervenes. Please, may
I use a scripture?
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of ALL
the NATIONS..."Matt28:19
So if there is indeed an Almighty God, then it is
well within his power to "draw all men unto" Him.
I believe that God is intervening and that is why
so many from all the Nations are turning to the
Bible...not to the churches...the bible. God has a
time table, and a very good reason for allowing things
to digress as they have...in time, all will become
crystal clear.
Now one other way of thinking is that God does not
exist.
Another is that another god (gods) rules.
Another is that "maybe" there is a god (or gods).

Fact remains that no matter what theory man has,
whatever is ...IS. Time will reveal truth.

U asked if it really matters?
Only if there is a Creator with a purpose that He
has revealed. If there is no Creator and everything
happened by chance, then this whole experiment is
pitiful, pitiful indeed.

-

SensualMelody said:

Thanks sensualmelody

Please allow me to adress some of the points you made...

"But now with the use of modern means of
communication, all nations are being exposed to the
teachings about Christ. That does not mean that it
will be easy for those of other persuasions to
convert...unless God himself intervenes. "

I don't entirely agree with that ... It's true that all "nations" are connected to the internet and other media of communication... but that does not mean that all the PEOPLE are..
It's mainly the western world POPULATION who has relatively easy acces to the internet...
I think it will be a long way before most of the world's population will be "connected"... untill then "we" will live in a high-tech 21st century world, while "others" will live in the world without all that.

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of ALL
the NATIONS..."Matt28:19 "

... isn't that what 'Christendom' has been trying to do for 2000 years already?... have they succeeded?
I don't think so...
Besides... "nations" have constantly changed in the course of history... and still are... what one time used to be a nation can now be a part of another "nation"...
and how do you suppose 'christianity' will ever be adopted/accepted as the true way of life, in all the nations with for example Islam as their foundation... or Hinduism... or Buddhism... or etc, etc...
the Spanish one time succeeded in "converting" an entire continent to their religious beliefs, who are also based in the Bible... but they did not really do that peacefully ...


"U asked if it really matters?
Only if there is a Creator with a purpose that He
has revealed. If there is no Creator and everything
happened by chance, then this whole experiment is
pitiful, pitiful indeed. "

I meant ... does it really matter that the entire world should see Jesus Christ as their "lord and saviour"?
What I am trying to say then is... that by using the name Jesus Christ and the denominations of "lord" and "saviour" you put boundaries around you and the ones who believe the same way... and therefore you "close" yourself (more orless, depnding on your level of tolerance) to other ways of thinking, because there can only be "one" truth right?
If there is only 'one' than in essence only 'one' can be the "true" truth...

And if you believe that this truth must be vested in the person and spirit of Jesus Christ as the worlds saviour and lord then there is not much room for other ways of thinking...is there?

So why would it matter if you would believe in something else than what the Bible teaches...?

Let's assume there is a creator... is it really necessary that we call him/her/it with a name like we do to call ourselves?
Does it really matter if we all read from the same scriptures to know about him/her/it?

Isn't it more important that we learn to respect others for their 'differing' beliefs and convictions...?

If history of men has showed us that there are many ways to look at and think of the concepts of "truth" and "creation"..."God" (and all his/her different names)...

why then should it be a problem for "truth" itself, if people differ in their ways of belief? If all of it carries at least some of the "truth" then why would "truth" need us to view it in ONLY one way?

Would it not want us to see it from all different angles to truly come to a more 'all-encompassing' vision of truth?

Abrazo said:

Thanks sensualmelody

Please allow me to adress some of the points you made...


I don't entirely agree with that ... It's true that all "nations" are connected to the internet and other media of communication... but that does not mean that all the PEOPLE are..
It's mainly the western world POPULATION who has relatively easy acces to the internet..
___

SensualMelody said:

That is why JWs beat the pavement, the dusty roads,
the mountain trails, the riversides, the hills and
dales, etc. to connect directly with the people.
___

Abrazo said:

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of ALL
the NATIONS..."Matt28:19 "
...isn't that what 'Christendom' has been trying to do for 2000 years already?... have they succeeded?
I don't think so...
___
SensualMelody said:

Christendom has made a pure mess of representing the God of
the bible. God himself had it written that this
would happen. They have failed because they have not followed his directions
...teaching fairytales instead
of truth...and exacting a high price from its proselytes.
Jehovah has never accepted worship thru force...He
only wants willing adherants. Many many people claim
to be Christians but only give lip service ..."I
believe in the Lord"..."I love Jesus". True Christianity
changes lives...for the better. Christianity should
not be confused with Christendom.
___


Abrazo said:

And if you believe that this truth must be vested in the person and spirit of Jesus Christ as the worlds saviour and lord then there is not much room for other ways of thinking...is there?
___

SensualMelody said:

Now that's really funny...laughable.
Christendom says that it believes in the Lord Jesus Christ...yet in no other
religion is there more diversity of thought. There is so
much division in it that when U ask any individual
about his religion, the answer usually begins with
"I think" or "I believe" and the answers you would get!
Some baptize with sprinkling, others immersion; some
believe once saved, always saved...others believe one
must endure to the end. Some think Jesus is God. Some
think he's the Son of God. Some think he's his own father.
Some think he is his own son. Some believe you must be...
oh I could go on and on...
___

Abrazo said:

So why would it matter if you would believe in something else than what the Bible teaches...?
Let's assume there is a creator... is it really necessary that we call him/her/it with a name like we do to call ourselves?
Does it really matter if we all read from the same scriptures to know about him/her/it?
___

SensualMelody said:

It only matters if the Bible is really inspired by that
Creator. Because if it is, then he has given very specific
instructions on what he requires. And if he is indeed the
Creator he has every right to make the rules.
___

Abrazo said:

Isn't it more important that we learn to respect others for their 'differing' beliefs and convictions...?
If history of men has showed us that there are many ways to look at and think of the concepts of "truth" and "creation"..."God" (and all his/her different names)...
why then should it be a problem for "truth" itself, if people differ in their ways of belief? If all of it carries at least some of the "truth" then why would "truth" need us to view it in ONLY one way?
___

SensualMelody said:

It is important from a HUMAN standpoint that we learn to
respect others for their differing beliefs. ISN'T THAT
WHAT YOU AND I DO ABRAZO? It's good, too isn't it?
Now whether or not that is what is more important to the
Creator is a whole other matter. One scripture says...
"Should the pot say to the potter, why did you make me?"
In other words the potter is the overall decision-
maker. God has graciously allowed free will for us.
With this free will many curse the one who made him.
___

Abrazo said:

Would "it" not want us to see it from all different angles to truly come to a more 'all-encompassing' vision of truth?
_(quotation marks ...mine)___

SensualMelody said:

The Creator (of the bible-type) refers to himself as
a personage...not as "it". He proceeded to give us
the truth from His Divine prospective. He sees the all-
encompassing truth (assuming as you said that he is
the Creator). In the short number of years that we
live individually, we grope about the first few years
just growing up, then learn a lot from books, and
personal experiences,becoming wiser with time. By
the time we figure out SOME of the right things to do,
it's too late to do them...then our years are up.
God has kindly left an operator's manual for life
that can direct us in the most successful way for us,
helping us to avoid many pitfalls.

Now I'm sure this discussion will be ignored by the
masses, but I enjoyed our exchange. Sorry I took so
long to answer. Abrazo! Abrazo! Wake up!

-

morena77 said:

U speak good, and u know what ur talkin bout, i agree totaly with u, and i'll say it again God can only judge u and no mear, mortal human bein. Eg/ in the scriptues it tells of a women who never prayed or was not wholely, but 1 day she saved an animals life, and 4 dat 1 deed, she was granted peace and after-life.

Sam

SensualMelody said:

yes, but catholic and protestant missionaries have been doing that as well, and longer already than JW's.


SensualMelody said:

sure they made a mess out of it... but do you think that JW"s couldn't have been doing the same thing if they would have been in the same shoes as 'Christendom'?

You know, because the JW religion was born in America, in an environment of freedom of religion, it has on the one side always been protected from other possible hostile religions, and on the other side, protected against itself for becoming 'one' with worldly affairs.

The time period and social climate in the USA have been very important conditions for JW' faith to flourish in the States and later into the rest of the world.


I think it is sad, not laughable... Why? ... NOT because there are so many differences, but because Christians of all denominations have always made such a big deal out of these differences... and that includes JW's... but fortunately they have never done that with violence... But like I said... what if the JW religion would have been born in the Middle Ages? Would it really have been so peacefulll as it is right now?

I really doubt that, you know... we are all humans and we have always battled eachother over religion whenever it was possible... the non-separation of religions and stateshave brought many disaster over people...

With the separation of Church and State/ freedom of religion this madnesss has gradually come to a stop... first in the western world mainly... but later and still now as we speak this awareness grows further, also even into Islamic nations.
I am not saying it is perfect, but it defintly is a step forward towards more respect and understanding.


so the Kuran or the Bhagavad Gita are not inspired by this same Creator?



Yes that's what we do and that is in my view the most important.
I also think that if the Creator created us all, then he wouldn't judge that one or more of his children are more right and look more like him than the others do.

a father of children shouldn't tell his children who are more like him. He should tell them they are all a bit like him and all equally his children.






I know that, but "Creator" is a neutral term, so i used "it", also because many don't view the Creator as having a specific gender.



Wouldn't the Bhagavad Gita and the Kuran be perfect manuals as well, for the different people living in a different part of the world, under different conditions than you do?
I am awake!


-
[This message was edited Tue Aug 6 16:57:17 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]

vgallo6 said:

Christ DID NOT start the church, man did. Reminds me of the old proverb "The nearer the Church, the farther from God." The ideals of an inspired prophet are one thing; the doctrines and practices of an established church are another. Whatever its claims to divine origin and guidance, an established church is a human institution, and on its record a fallible one.

God is Love. Love is love of self, in the respect that one does not abuse or neglect the physical body to the detriment of the astral body. Love is also love for one's "brother". Let's define brother as "everyone".
The message of love has been delivered by various messengers at various times in history, and they were not always Christian, and/or Jewish. The message had to be delivered in a form that was 'acceptable" to the people who were receiving the message. Question: Could arab people have accepted a jewish messenger, or could Jewish people have accepted an asian messenger, or could asian people have accepted a caucasion messenger? However, I do think that the meaning of the early " messages" were eventually "distored", to the point the man was no longer growing spiritually. I believe the Incarnation of Jesus to be an attempt to present the message , once again, to correct and clarify these distortions. The Bible is disjointed because much has been omitted and/or changed. The early Catholic church went to great lengths to modify the "word"- in a effort to bring the masses under their control. There is much dogma in organized religion, and too much hierachy. The " higher power" lives within all of us, and missing confession a few times doesnt' block our access to the power because we already have, just need to go inside and find it. We don't need to go through "layers" of religious officials to get to God.

"I have an interesting question..."

LIAR!

?
[This message was edited Wed Feb 26 2:59:07 PST 2003 by IstenSzek]

Where's the interesting question you promised?