BLACKMF said:

theC
takes one 2 know one I said it!what???I don't care about the miles/prince/warner bros.stuff.i was talking about prince saying he wanted 2 release all this music once he was free of WB.And he hasn't lived up 2 that imo.I think he put out better stuff at the end of his WB career than he has on his own.If your comment wasn't directed at me(my apologies)if it was.STEP 2 ME!!
[This message was edited Sun Aug 4 16:48:07 PDT 2002 by theC]

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[This message was edited Sun Aug 4 16:47:43 PDT 2002 by theC]

why would they need Prince's permission? i imagine it would be treated like a cover version, for which you need no permission from the writer/publisher/original artist to do. you only have to pay the appropriate royalties.

what's the deal?

They have to have Prince permission to release a album? What?? Something in the water does not compute...Why are people believing in everything that Warner Bros has to say? "Warn a Brother"

pimpytheclown said:

I whole-heartedly disagree with everything that u said.

Prince is not the reason for the withdrawl of this set.

Prince is the reason for 3 songs not being on the set.

Stop acting altruistic when all you want is more vault material in your collection.

cheers

Revolution:

That's cool that you disagree with everything I said.Fine.


However:

1) He IS middle-aged;

2) He has NOT focused on building on his legacy, so much as throwing out to the world whatever he has felt at the moment.E.G.: "Newpower Soul" was not a legit effort in the way the end result as compared to "Rainbow Children", where he obiviously thought out every note, every lyric. "Newpower Soul" was more to help call attention to "Come 2 My House" and "GCS 2000", and just to have "product" beyond the "Crystal Ball" mess.

The Beatles release their multi-disc series "Anthology";Bob Dylan releases his bootleg set; Prince, who I think is in equal stature,puts out "1999: The New Master", "Chaos and Disorder" and the ilk.

Tell me, "Revolution", would you have rather of had "Roadhouse Garden" or Chaos and Disorder"? Which collection reveals him as a brilliant musician with mystique? Which collection reveals Prince to be a performer who is bitter/out of steam? Which collection would better reflect his true capabilities? Which would help create a more respectable and admired LEGACY?

3) I assume you have heard enough bootleg material to realize that a lot of the material in the vaults collecting dust IS good, better than a lot of his actual releases, better than most artists find on their "Best Of" collections;

4) I think he intends to release most of the vault SOMEDAY (that is not in conflict with his new beliefs), they're to fall back on, they're insurance. Prince has a hard time selling over 100,000 copies of any new release anymore (Check the sales of "The Vault", "Chaos and Disorder", "1999: TNM", or even for that matter, "Rave in2 the Joy Fantastic", or even "Rainbow Children". And does anybody really believe that "Crystal Ball" sold over 250,000?).
Say the famous vault goods are released in 10 years. WILL the Public care? Prince is barely a blip in the media radar. He hasn't sold albums in a long time. Little radio play. In 2012, what label is gonna pay for the vault goods Prince will want big $$$ for, pay for production costs, packaging?Like I said, lack of newness, videos,hype and demand will prevent vault goods being presented in the way and historical presentation it deserves. Money loser.

5) Prince collectors/fanatics collected the 90's contractual cd's and enjoyed them. Casual listeners 86'ed them,prople will think twice about buying new Prince.

6) You think he can afford more "Crystal Ball" fiascos, and "Newpower Souls"? You are fine with this?

7) I think fans of Prince see him much diffeerently than the people who scribbled all over his face on the VBOP poster at my record store.


Prince is the most talented musician on the planet. I just think it 's time he relentlessly reminded the world insetad of putzing around with "NPGMC" downloads, and such. Create a deserving legacy.

I find it hard to believe Revolution really disagrees with all this.

the real reason I Believe they are Canning the Project is Because this is easily one of Mile's Weakest time Periods IMHO.no Doubt from 55-72 Miles Was Scary.His 80's stuff was Hit&Miss from 80-84 IMHO.after that He feel Victim to the Synth&Programming Sound that Produced alot of Gloss but very Little Substance IMHO.take the SOundtrack "Siesta" that was Suppose to Be a Up-Date on "Sketches of Spain" but it felt Smooth Jazz Meets Yanni IMHO.Miles had some Tight Names on His Projects but after His "Star People"&"Decoy" Albums in the 80's he got Badly Watered-Down IMHO.His Warner Years overall for me just didn't cut it.when He Hooked with Quincy Jones right Before He Died for the Festival Tour&Disc He was cool.also Miles's Live Stuff was cool around 88-90 but the Studio Stuff IMHO leaves alot to be desired.Gettign Miles Bonus stuff from His Columbia Era 58-75 is Worthy to Me His Warner Brothers Era:I might get something in a Used Store but mainly Down-Load it.

New Power Soul is a good album.

LOVE PEACE JOY

soulpower said:

If advance copies have been sent out, then the tracks will circulate and any non-lazy person can find them relatively easily.

Prince does not give a damn about what you think "he" should do because many of you will bitch and moan over whatever he releases.
Who knows if ROADHOUSE is a better album that C&D or if the vault material is even worth releasing?
Many fans already have some of the best vault material and would not buy the offical release.

Let the man do HIS thing and stop trying to be internet music critics.You might find that the music is better than you first thought.

Prince refused to release the Miles Davis collaborations in the 80's when they were originally recorded. He did not want to add anything sub-standard to the Miles catalouge.

As they are the same songs, I'd guess the same reason applies now.

Its in the DOW book, check it out.

And who cares about compliers 'doing their job'. Prince made the music, its his damn choice not theirs.

IstenSzek said:

Prince has been refusing to give them these tracks for years. If they printed up copies of the set before getting his permission, then thats poor planning on their part. See email below from last year discussing the same thing:


This is a recent message from the Miles Davis mailing list:

"Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:38:00 +0100
From: Paul Tingen
Subject: Re: Miles in Montreux big box set - it's coming ! (perhaps)

Since I'm working on some Miles-related articles for some UK and US mags (I'll keep you posted), I'm in regular touch with the people at the Warner Bros Switzerland press office about the Montreux set. They seem to be rather confused about what's happening. Basically the
plan was to release all Miles's Montreux concerts (73, 84, 85, 86, 88, 89, 90, and 91) in their entirety on a massive 18 CD set. The release date was planned for fall this year. Ian Carr wrote the liner notes, Adam Holzman is involved in an advisory capacity. (The participation of
yours truly was ruled out since the Miles Davis Estate is still pissed with me for talking to Jo Gelbard, Miles's last girl friend.)

Claude Nobs's vision for the Montreux set is to present Miles as he sounded during those concerts, reason why the original front of house mixes will be released. Apparently the Montreux sound engineer was/is very good. Later on there might be a remix of the whole set in 5.1
surround sound.

However, as always, there have been lots of problems. The first concerns the release date. WB US insists that the Montreux set is released at least a few months away in time from The Last Word, its own 5 CD collection of all Miles's Warner Bros studio recordings plus
previously unreleased out takes and some live stuff. TLW was initially to be released last August. After I was bumped off the plan was for a release in September, still to coincide with the 10th anniversary of Miles's death. (They hired Bill Milkowski to write liner notes from
scratch in two weeks. He told me it were the most insanely intense two weeks of his writing career!)

Since then the release date has been gradually pressed back in time, for reasons unknown to me, or Bill. The latest plan is a February 2002 release. One of the problems appears to be getting permission from Prince to release his stuff (the diminutive one apparently is still
on war footing with WB). The few live tracks from the La Villette concert in Paris in 1991 that were to be included have already been dropped, apparently also for permission and copyright reasons.

Anyway, the proposed February release of TLW means that the Montreux set is planned for a pre X-mas release, but no-one in the WB Switzerland thinks this is realistic. So unless TLW is pushed back in time again, this means that the Montreux set will be released after
TLW, perhaps early Spring. It will initially be a European release, meaning that the set will only be available in the US via import. A US release is planned, but not yet negotiated.

Apparenly there are other problems, one of them being that WB US wants some tracks removed from the Montreux set, because they compete with some of the stuff on TLW. So the idea of integral concerts being released seems to be going down the drain, much to Nobs' chagrin, I'm sure. Paradoxically, the latest plan I heard of was to extend the Montreux set to 19 CDs. I'm unsure what's supposed to be on
this additional CD.

First of all I have to say that is hard to believe that WB is not able to release an album, just because or friend refuses to give them some songs...
I guess it is a more political statement to raise the discussion as you can find it here -> some people blaming him, some people defending him.
On the other if he owns the masters, it is up to his decision to release the songs or not. And why the hell should he give them to WB? He can release them trough NPG easily and get the whole piece of the cake.

Another thing is the vault. As a musician I know very well, that you don't want everything to be released, even if I personally would like to have a copy of the vault...
Sometimes you create a song and after it is finish you realize that it is not up to your current self-established quality standards. Question yourself: What if none of us would have knowledge of the vault? What if unreleased material wouldn't have leaked through the barrier of Paisley Park. Would we still blame him for not releasing songs from the vault?

Think about it! This discussion is emphasizing that our friend should be forced to release material that he probably doesn't like...

Seems cut and dry, clash of egos.

Prince is still pissed at Warner Bros. for his Slave years and if the only string he has left to pull is the unauthorized use of his songs, he will pull it. He uses whatever weapon he has left in his arsonal.

Warner, in turn is still pissed at Prince, so they publically place all the blame on Prince. That tells the public that its all Prince's fault. Maybe Warner will release the Very best of Prince vol. 2 cd next.

Why didn't they just release the cds in '85 to '91, were the tracks that bad that you had to wait until Miles was gone to put them out?

Just get over yourselves

Aaron said:

That's because the songs never have been offically published. what you are talking about doesn't apply to unpublished songs. Besides that there could be a problem with the masters.

jthad1129,

what/who is the source of your story?

anyway I think the people from wb doing this project are a bunch of non-thinking jerks. Why print cd's and plan a release when you haven't had clearance yet? especially from someone like Prince. That's just dumb.
If they are now cancelling it because of Prince's refusal they are a bunch of whiners, because a 4 cd box-set can EASILY go WITHOUT only 3 songs from Prince.




... still sending out promo copies, as if they will not end up on the net. that's some bad business.
[This message was edited Mon Aug 5 14:44:18 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]

sure Prince can block the release just like he blocked the very best of prince right gte a clue then post it on the site discussion to make the world a better place

joecoco said:

I agree joeycoco. For an artist it can be very important not to release some of their work. Some fans don't realise that.
I can imagine that prince doesn't really stand behind some of the stuff he never waned to release in the first place.

And I don't blame him one bit for saying no to wb.

source:ICE



Disappointed Davis fans can find solace in Columbia/Legacy's
limited-edition 20-CD The Complete Miles Davis at Montreux 1973-1991, which was announced in the (ice) August issue and is now scheduled to arrive in stores September 17.

David Okamoto

Jazz Columnist, ICE

theC said:

Thec.. you can't possibly mean that you expected Prince to release ALL of his vault material. And I don't think he really said that. I think he said that wb didnt let him release more than 1 album per year and that he had much more he wanted to release. And he did release crystall ball only one year after he left.

don't kid yourself, because he has released more music after he left wb. just name them -> emancipation: 3 cd's, 3 hours. Crystall ball -> 3 cd's, + the truth, kamasutra. Then NPS and GCS + ckaka kahn's album. Rave and some new gems spread here and there.

the only year that was low in output was the year 2000. But with the club he released last year about two to three albums of "new" material. Then TRC, now ONA and Xenophobia (which should be coming soon)

Plus the 3rd and 4the cd for this years club.

who knows he releases one extra, perhabs a live release. it could happen.

don't judge this year clubs package untill it has been february 2003.

jthad1129 said:

thanks.

Abrazo said:

That was Joe, not Joey.

Abrazo said:

they've been PUBLISHED. you think Prince sends anything out to people without getting them published first? that would be stupid of him. the artist could say it was their own song and he'd get nothing. they are published. if you mean they haven't been released before, that's another story.

Abrazo said:

Thanx for this post. I can't stand all this discussion. Everybody seems to be afraid not to get 3 CD's in 6 months to come. Maybe he will send 3 CD's at Dec. 31, or Jan. 15 or Nov. 2nd.
Let's keep cool and wait until the end of this NPGMC year. Then we can decide whether to go on or not. BTW it is funny to read that we assume he is so stupid to disappoint the fams that much so that they would leave NPGMC... Come on he has proven that he not only is a great musician, but he knows how to run the business as well. And even though we are talking about art, it is also about the 100 bucks from each one of us. I doubt that he doesn't care about that money...
Peace

I think Anthony7 makes a damn good point. Prince wasn't thrilled with these tracks in the 80s, why would he be now. He has other collaborations in the vault with Miles that are rumoured to be far superior. Hopefully, he'll evetnually release those, but in the meantime, why should he help his former label (who hasn't done anything to help him out since the early 90s) by allowing them to makemore money off his late friend's material? I'm pretty outspoken with my criticism of Prince's business tactics, but this one actually makes sense.

Aaron said:

With 'publishing' I mean 'releasing' Aaron. Publishing doesn't mean the same as copyrighting a song, copyright exist from the moment of creation of the work.
Releasing and publishing are the same thing, just different words. To release a record means that besides the sound recording, also the underlying song and lyrics are distributed to the PUBLIC (published).

THAT (releasing/publishing) hasn't happened offically yet with these songs and that is why nobody can get a compulsory license to again distribute these songs to the public... simply because that hasn't happened yet. Even they would have been published/released already...prince would still have legal grounds to prevent a second relase/publication, but it would be harder for him to prevent it then, because of the way the compulsory license system works.

and like I said, there is probably also a problem with the sound recording rights.

I think wb just screwed up themselves and now they are trying to blame prince for it, which is just lame.