Is Prince such an amazing, innovative, kick-ass genius that he spoiled us & set the bar too high?

It amazes me that people can listen to ONA, TRC, Emancipation (and many others) & call them "crap." Had the same songs been recorded by another (and lesser) artist, I believe the response would have been better - they'd get congratulated just for staying on key.

It seems like if Prince doesn't achieve absolute brilliance, knock us all on our collective asses & make us cum from our eardrums - he gets DOGGED.

I'm sure "asskisser" comments will follow, but it's a trip that he can get raked over the coals for creating great music...




edited 'cause I ain't just talking about the religious/spiritual stuff...

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[This message was edited Sat Jul 27 3:25:15 PDT 2002 by CalhounSq]

Yes, often we are too harsh - but in a way it's a compliment to the man, because he sets our standards higher than we otherwise would, and we tend to compare his stuff against his stuff, not his stuff against others' stuff.

I think Calhoun is dead right. As one reporter once said, "Prince's worst efforts are many bands best".

Definitely. Everybody knows Prince's efforts are better than anybody elses out on the market today. He's always ahead of the Game. Leader of the Pack...

ecnirpnz said:

But when we compare his stuff to his stuff, are we putting "When You Love Somebody" up against "When Doves Cry"? Is that fair?

Can each & every song be amazing? Where's the curve in this mutha?!

I love ONA. I think Prince's newer "hardcore" fans want to hear his hits rehashed and re-named in a different key before they are happy.

Just an observation.

CalhounSq said:

I have a feeling that some people's dislike of TRC has more to do with lyrical content than anything else, and that overshadows the piece as a whole. I'm not saying that's the reason everyone dislikes it, but I think it's the case for the majority who don't like it. Although some won't admit that. He's touching on certain issues he had never touched on before, it was bound to rub some the wrong way.


It must be an aesthetic prison for someone who creates those type of expectations and is held to them for every single piece of music he creates. In some ways it might be a curse, for some people. But it doesn't seem to be an issue for him. The only time I ever really got annoyed with him musically is when I didn't detect an effort on his part. When it felt like he was on cruise control. TRC is better than a good effort, it's a compelling return to form. People who want someone to be innovative all the time are unrealistic and naive.


Those who automatically fall back on the ass kisser rhetoric when they don't agree with somebody have no discernment for gray areas, they think it's either this, or that, right or left: black or white.

Ya see.

Supernova said:

Great point, but what about the stuff that's not so spiritual/religious in tone? ONA in particular - I just don't get that one. ONA is really beautiful. I think the fact that it's so stripped down (which lots of people complain about) is what makes it so beautiful. It's so simple, just him & his piano, AND IT WORKS. But people are sneezing @ it left & right - WTF??

I definately think you're onto something with the 'spoilt fans' thing. And I do think some are too harsh, for this reason. I think though, the main reason it's dogged is because of it's explicit religious lyrical content. It's a clash of belief for some people, that the musical content alone can not make up for.

I it 8)
[This message was edited Sat Jul 27 3:14:12 PDT 2002 by Therapy]

I'd like to agree with you Calhoun, so let's pretend that I do. But then lets ask ourselves the question in the opposite fashion. If someone played you the opening track on TRC and it was ANY other artist would you be impressed? I wouldn't. I would be like "the music is cool, but what the fuck is with that stupid voice" and I wouldn't buy the record. Same is true for Rave (minus the part about the music and the voice). Actually, I wonder if I've been listening to Prince out of habit/pity for about the last 4 years... Maybe we give him too much credit. If he was anyone else we'd accept him for the hack he's become and not buy his albums. OK now I went too far, I really don't think Prince is a hack at all. If anything I think he releases some of the wrong stuff. His live stuff has a much stronger feel than his studio work. ONA was live in studio and that record is really great. What Supernova said about subject matter is true also. Look how many orgers hate "the Animal Kingdom". It's a good song, but fams and fans alike feel judged by it's lyrics. Maybe I stopped making sense a while back and the reason is because I ask myself these questions all the time. "Do I really like this, or can I just not break the habit?"... things that make you go hmmm... good topic.

here come the flames... lol.

good point cornerman

to be honest i've bought some of prince's recent stuff for reasons other than feeling like i *had* to have the music.

i continue to support prince even when i'm not so excited about the music because i want to support his freedom fight against the industry and because he's from my hometown. if another musician had offered me TRC i would have passed on it altogether

Of course we are too harsh. It denotes greatness when a person can only be compared to themselves in their artform. Think about it seriously, even the ones who constantly bash the guy are fans. They have to be in order to pick his stuff apart. I mean the guy has released so much music and for so many of us to not only have heard almost all of it but to also own it is astounding. I'm talking just officially released stuff. Let's not even go to the bootleg stuff, that's a whole nother level. In all honesty the guy is a living legend. There are other great musical artist out there, but Prince has created his own vibe. It's so distinct that no matter how he changes his style the vibe still flows from his music. I think the only group that every got close to it was TLC with "Water Falls". Hell, I was almost sure Prince wrote that for them, because it had his vibe. And think about it, that was the biggest hit they ever had.

But back on subject, we are too harsh. You can marry the prettiest and most wonderful woman on the planet and after a couple of years you will find faults with her. We've been married to his music for so long that we've lost the intial appreciation we had for it. We constantly seek it out with each new album, but I think that's wrong. I think each album should stand on it's own and not be compared to the whole body of work. How many times have people said they now like an album of his that they used to not.

But wouldn't this be a boring site if everyone loved everything. There wouldn't be anything to debate. I think the coolest thing about his whole body of work is no matter what album you mention somebody on this site loves it. And I mean really love it. I have stated that I'm not the biggest lover of ONA, but I love Chaos and Disorder, New Power Soul and all 3 CD's of Emancipation. These are some of hardest bashed albums on the ORG.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is no matter how hard you bash something of his, there will be people to defend it because it suites their personal taste.

GoldiesParade said:

Ass kisser!

:LOL:

Cornerman said:

Me, personally, I would love it just the same...possibly more if it were from some artist I had never heard of...hearing the slowed-down voice coupled with the funked-up jazzy vibe to the music would make me feel like this person creating this music is sick..lol...and "sick" can be pretty damn interesting...I'd want to listen to the rest of the album to see just what else this guy was going to do...one of my favorite lines from a Prince song is during "Horny Pony", when the female voice says "He is...oh, he is just so WEIRD!!"...she says it as if she just can't understand why Prince does what he does, and it bothers her...with me, it just makes him that much more interesting...

DaddyMan said:

Nicely said...I agree...

CalhounSq said:

So what you are saying is that if we are a Prince fan we have to like every single release? Maybe someday it will grow on me (TRC is not as hated anymore) but I find ONA boring and there is nothing wrong with my opinion.

Come on CalhounSq. you can't possible like everything the man releases. Do you honestly believe that anyone would like the song "Northside" if it were by another artist? Come on get real even Prince releases subpar music sometimes

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[This message was edited Sat Jul 27 8:34:59 PDT 2002 by lovemachine]

I think the music that Prince makes and people call 'crap' is 1000% better than some of the shit in the charts and always will be. I really feel sorry for the unfortunates that haven't taken up on Prince and this great musical journey he is taking us all on.

CalhounSq said:

Some of the opinions I've read of Prince's music are, imo, too harsh, Cal, yes...but, some that I've read are too sugary, too.

All of it is okay, I suppose...

I definately think we fans have more expectations, yet at the same time more tolerance. We always know it will be "good", however some really want funk. Some want more "spiritual". Some want ballads. Some want guitar. Some want piano etc...

I think the people that arent crazy out of their head on songs like "Sometimes It Snows" may not be as thrilled with ONA. I personally have always been in love with his "softer" side.

If your opinion is "Hey, Prince is f'n stupid," why hide your true feelings? Harsh or not!

CalhounSq said:

I think that's what makes Prince so great...that he can make everyone elicit a strong response from his work. I love it because of this...I hate it because of this... it's a strong testament to the power his music has over all of us here. Some people hate the same stuff that other fans love. I agree that many fans raise the bar on him and expect everything he releases to turn to gold, but those days are gone. He's just about making good music based on what he's feeling at the moment, without record execs trying to change what he says. I personally enjoyed the stripped down feel of ONA. TRC still gets heavy rotation for me. Rave and NPS...well I just listen to my fave track on there and pass on the rest. Great topic CS!

IceNine said:

Father sucker

:LOL:

CalhounSq said:

- Well, I always thought that even his weakest works like ´Emancipation´ were still more interesting than almost everything that was released the same year. BUT it´s because the LEVEL of the others was LOW, and not Prince´s level was high. Prince is a great musician, and he will never release an album as bad as a Puff Daddy album.
But if you compare ´Emancipation´ to albums made by Zappa, Ellington, Miles, etc...you will see that it´s not so strong.
And Prince showed us that he can do much better stuff than what he released from 96-2000. TRC is an album where he put his efforts to make a real good album. If people dont like it, it´s because of the lyrics, not the music.

CalhounSq said:

- Hmm...I dont know...´When doves cry´ is miles away in musical terms (arrangements, melody, etc)
It happens because when P was younger, he probably had more hunger, and Wendy and Lisa helped a lot, because they didnt seem to accept every song he made then.
I will always have the impression that he was TIRED during the KJ years (Emancipation, High, Rave, NPS). Rave 2000 is a good example. It had very uninspired setlist and guitar playing. Now he seems to be having pleasure making music again.

lovemachine said:

No, absolutely not. I'm not talking like or dislike - I'm talking drilling him a new a-hole over it. Sometimes the venom is SO extreme over songs that ain't bad at all, they're actually GOOD songs...

Maybe my Q is really about the passion (good or bad) people show in regard to his music - they wouldn't bother if they didn't REALLY care (which is why the naysayers crack me up)...



Okay, it bores you. Fine. But when I see folks on here calling it "absolute SHIT!" it makes me wonder... Have they ever known serenity? Can they take it in? It's all relative, ain't it...



Of course not. I can probably count in single digit #'s how many times Chaos & Disorder, Rave (official release), The Black Album, NPS & Dirty Mind (yes, that one) have been plucked from their cases. My point is not to say, "love it all". More like, "Why ream him over the 'bad' stuff when it ain't really THAT bad?"



Probably not. Man, I don't even like "Northside" - there's a few NPGMC releases that have tickled my :C drive but didn't amuse me. This is not about cheerleading...



DEFINE "subpar"??? THAT is the question of the day...

on the other hand, generally speaking, his music gets me boppin like no other artist's music

i guess all his albums always have at least a few gems

CalhounSq said:

sub·par Pronunciation Key (sb-pär)
adj.
1. Not measuring up to traditional standards of performance, value, or production.
2. Below par in a hole, round, or game of golf.

Unless Prince has taken up golf, I'm guessing lovemachine means number 1.

I think some fans definitely expect too much of Prince, and that makes them harsh in their criticism. On the other, Prince is no different than you and I in that he makes mistakes, and we all know how we truly deserve to be criticized sometimes. Unfortunately, Prince is a public figure, so he gets slammed more, but it comes with the rerritory. By all accounts, he does a fine job at controlling his exposure to negative feedback. Besides, i have to admit that if I were Prince, I wouldn't give a rat's ass knowing just how much I have accomplished compared to my critics.

GoldiesParade said:

Ball-nosed dolphin fucker!

well...

I am listening to 'Kamasutra' right now and...
...
uhm...

well...
how do I put this nicely?...


It has some nice parts, but numerous times he has got me wondering what the hell he was thinking?
Trying to make music sound real classical with all those ridiculous synthesizers isn't going to work an entire cd! And what about those scissors? my goodness...

Other than that I think TRC is a fantastic album, with very few 'weak' spots. In my view a return to form.

ONA is very nice in my opinion, at first sight/hearing too short, but it has absolutely delicious tunes on them and I think prince put a lot of extraordinary feelings in them...

Emancipation is a different story in many ways. The album is much older and I am sorry to say but this is not an album that grows on me over the years. Instead I now think that only half of it is really excellent.

That doesn't mean that the rest is 'crap'... but it does mean that the 'filler' songs, which are really there imo, take away some of the magic of the extraordinary ones.

I think he tried way too hard to make a 3 cd set with 12 songs on each cd, with each cd taking exactly 1 hour...

That isn't true genius imo, that's more like bragging to me, in a an artistical way yes... but not necessary.

ONA is much more modest... I like that better.


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[This message was edited Sat Jul 27 12:59:53 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]